The Need to Practice Rapture

[oikonomia]

I think you need to “rehearse” how to express yourself more coherently.

At least I write enough to need practice.

How can we rehearse being taken away to heaven

You cannot rehearse having your body taken away to heaven.
But if you would read the book of Hebrews you would see we are told to come forward to the
throne of grace and to the Holy of Holies. Both are associated with heaven.

Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus,
the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. (Heb. 4:14)

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made by hands, a figure of the true, but into heaven itself, to appear now before the face of God for us; (Heb. 9:24)

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (v.16)

Christ has passed through the heavens to sit upon His throne of grace.
And we can come forward to that throne in our spirit to receive grace.

You see the very Christ who is at the right hand of the throne of God
is also within the regenerated spirit of the Christian.

Here He is in heaven - Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom. 8:34)
Here He is within man - But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,
the spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom. 8:10)

So to turn to our mingled spirit where Christ is joins us to a heavenly realm within.
Our innermost being, our human spirit can be joined to Christ in heaven.

Jesus is therefore the reality of Jacob's ladder joining earth to heaven within us.
Jacob's dream of earth being joined to heaven in Genesis 28-12-17 finds its fulfillment in the Son of Man Jesus Christ - John 1:51.

And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and
the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (John 1:51)

and from temptations we haven't encountered? Tell us how that's done. Do we jump up in the air "FROM whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of as ungodly," as you put it?

You never read about setting our mind on the things above where Christ is?
You never read about doing this to put to death the sinful activity of our members on earth?

Come back to the word of God.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory.
Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry;
(Col. 3:1-5)

This is something we must practice. It is good practice to start each day with a time with the Lord in the word.
During this morning time of revival we draw close to the throne of grace within. And we set our mind on the things
above as we tell the Lord we love Him.

The whole day will be more of a heavenly atmosphere within if we practice.
And the rapturous joy will be kindled in our heart.

If we are whisked away when convicted of ungodliness, then we don't confront the ungodliness, do we?

When convicted of ungodliness we bring that under the blood of Jesus through confession.
The more we turn to our innermost spirit where the Spirit of Christ dwells in us the more we will
excercise ourselves unto godliness.

But the profane and old-womanish myths refuse, and exercise yourself unto godliness.
For bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but godliness is profitable for all things,
having promise of the present life and of that which is to come. (1 Tim. 4:7,8)

You can exercise your praying spirit. For the Christian is joined to the Lord as one spirit deep within.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

This exercise of our praying organ is like gymnastics spiritually speaking. And it is profitable
for all areas of human life to the reborn Christian. This practice therefore has promise
for the present life and the eternal age to come.
godliness is profitable for all things,
having promise of the present life and of that which is to come.

Are these the types of posts to be expected from Pretribulationists?

These posts are intended to be profitable to the Christian whatever their view of the GT is.
I believe in watching for a pre-great tribulation taking away.
And if I miss it, you can be sure that all who miss will take exercising unto godliness very seriously.

Either way it is profitable to practice turning to the Lord within for grace, empowering, fellowship, and supply.

 

[oikonomia]

In the following verse Jude says we should build up ourselves in prayer.
This also takes practice and is an exercise of our praying spirit.

But you, beloved, building up yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, (Jude 20)

And here Paul intructs us to fan into flame the gift which is in us.
That is to stir up the spiritual presence of the Spirit within not being passive.
It is like providing oxygen to a fire that it would burn brighter and warmer.
That requires spiritual exercise and practice too.

For which cause I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power and of love and of sobermindedness. (2 Tim. 1:6,7)

 

[keras]

Do you believe First Corinthians 3:13-15 or do you not believe it?

I resent being asked such questions, Of course I believe what the Bible says, you only question me because I refute the rapture theory.

I will teach that "THEY" who overcame the accuser refers to the man-child raptured to heave

Then you teach error. The 'man child' is singular, and only Jesus, the One who came from heaven, was taken; raptured if you like; - Ascended, to heaven. Where His waits for His enemies to be made His footstool.
This destruction of the ungodly is due to commence very soon, with the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

The larger body from whom the man-child was born who are alive are left to pass through the 3.5 years
under God's provision in those difficult times to come.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (v.6)

Yes; it will be the faithful Christians who will go to live in a safe location on earth, for the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Revelation 12:14-15
The rest of the Christians, the ones who did violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain in the holy Land. Revelation 12:17

 

[keras]

My burden was to basically emphasize the normal Christian should not be shocked perchance they are
physically taken off by the Lord.

My burden, and I am fairly lonely in this: is to present the Biblically correct scenario of the end times, where the faithful people of God go to live in all of the holy land, being the people that God always wanted there, but has never yet had.

My concern, too; is for those who have bought into the rapture to heaven idea and when disaster comes, the world shaking, extreme heat and the deaths of billions, and they remain rooted to the earth, will they have sufficient trust in the Lord to endure until the end?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

At least I write enough to need practice.


You cannot rehearse having your body taken away to heaven.
But if you would read the book of Hebrews you would see we are told to come forward to the
throne of grace and the Holy of Holies. Both are associated with heaven.

Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus,
the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. (Heb. 4:14)

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made by hands, a figure of the true, but into heaven itself, to appear now before the face of God for us; (Heb. 9:24)

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help. (v.16)

Christ has passed through the heavens to sit upon His throne of grace.
And we can come forward to that throne in our spirit to receive grace.

You see the very Christ who is at the right hand of the throne of God
is also within the regenerated spirit of the Christian.

Here He is in heaven - Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom. 8:34)
Here He is within man - But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,
the spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom. 8:10)

So to turn to our mingled spirit where Christ is joins us to a heavenly realm within.
Our innermost being, our human spirit can be joined to Christ in heaven.

Jesus is therefore the reality of Jacob's ladder joining earth to heaven within us.
Jacob's dream of earth being joined to heaven in Genesis 28-12-17 finds its fulfillment in the Son of Man Jesus Christ - John 1:51.

And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and
the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (John 1:51)

You never read about setting our mind on the things above where Christ is?
You never read about doing this to put to death the sinful activity of our members on earth?

Come back to the word of God.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory.
Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry;
(Col. 3:1-5)

This is something we must practice. It is good practice to start each day with a time with the Lord in the word.
During this morning time of revival we draw close to the throne of grace within. And we set our mind on the things
above as we tell the Lord we love Him.

The whole day will be more of a heavenly atmosphere within if we practice.
And the rapturous joy will be kindled in our heart.

When convicted of ungodliness we bring that under the blood of Jesus through confession.
The more we turn to our innermost spirit where the Spirit of Christ dwells in us the more we will
excercise ourselves unto godliness.

But the profane and old-womanish myths refuse, and exercise yourself unto godliness.
For bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but godliness is profitable for all things,
having promise of the present life and of that which is to come. (1 Tim. 4:7,8)

You can exercise your praying spirit. For the Christian is joined to the Lord as one spirit deep within.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

This exercise of our praying organ is like gymnastics spiritually speaking. And it is profitable
for all areas of human life to the reborn Christian. This practice therefore has promise
for the present life and the eternal age to come.
godliness is profitable for all things,
having promise of the present life and of that which is to come.

These posts are intended to be profitable to the Christian whatever their view of the GT is.
I believe in watching for a pre-great tribulation taking away.
And if I miss it, you can be sure that all who miss will take exercising unto godliness very seriously.

Either way it is profitable to practice turning to the Lord within for grace, empowering, fellowship, and supply.

In all your meandering, you admit that we “cannot rehearse having your body taken away to heaven.” But that is what the title of your thread encourages: The Need to Practice Rapture

Your title encourages the need to rehearse having our bodies taken away to heaven, which you had to admit isn’t possible when challenged.

And none of the texts you cite convey we should rehearse having our bodies taken to heaven. They relate our mind should dwell on heavenly matters, which is completely different.

As I said, you should “rehearse” how to express yourself more coherently.

And while I do agree that it is profitable to dwell in heavenly matters, I don’t think it is profitable or needful or possible to PRACTICE RAPTURE.

And lastly and then I’ll leave you alone; in my opinion, pretrib posts are only profitable for exposing errors, if one has enough surfeit time.

 

[oikonomia]

I resent being asked such questions, Of course I believe what the Bible says, you only question me because I refute the rapture theory.

You say a teaching is garbage and belongs in a trash bin. But you resent being asked something about belief in a verse?
You have a glass jaw. Don't dish out rough statements if you don't want to receive them.

Then you teach error. The 'man child' is singular, and only Jesus, the One who came from heaven, was taken; raptured if you like; - Ascended, to heaven. Where His waits for His enemies to be made His footstool.

The sign of the man-child may be of a single child. But it is not unlike the Body of Christ being a symbol for a corporate collective.
Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. (1 Cor. 12:27)

In the same way the Spirit of God shows a singular "man-child". But it is composed of "our brothers" - "they" - and
"them" who "loved not THIER soul-life even unto death."

What the man-child is ordained to do is in fact the reward to "he who overcomes" implying a collective who rise to
the occasion.

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)
Compare:
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

This destruction of the ungodly is due to commence very soon, with the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

The calamity of the Sixth Seal is a warning to all the earth that the great tribulation is soon to begin.
The great tribulation proper is the three woes of the last three trumpets - trumpets #5, #6, and #7 (its negative contents).

Here the last three trumpets soon after the opening of the sixth seal define the great tribulation.

And the fourth angel trumpeted, and the third part of the sun and the third part of the moon and the third part of the stars were smitten, so that the third part of them would be darkened and the day would not appear for the third part of it, and the night likewise.

And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! (Rev. 8:12,13)

So you see that before the great tribulation of the three last woes, there will be some calamities in the cosmos to signal its coming.
up to the fourth trumpet. The last three trumpets are the great tribulation.

Up to the fifth trumpet man is not touched directly. They are effected but not directly touched. Starting with the three WOES of
the three last trumpets man is touched directly. The earth will no longer be a suirable place to live and man's bodies are directly
harmed in the last three WOES.

In the first WOE - the fifth trumpet men will even long to die to escape the suffering. No one no matter how spiritual
should want to be here to go through those times.

And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss. (Rev. 9:1)
And in those days men will seek death and shall by no means find it; and they will long to die, and death flees from them. (v. 9)

So the habit of abiding in the Lord and watching is profitable to be taken and not left to have to pass through these times.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (Matt. 24:42,43)

[Y]our Lord indicates that the warning is the Christian disciples. Jesus is their Lord.

It is better to be the man-child or the firstfruits than to be the persecuted woman of those saints left to be hounded
by Antichrist on a world which is no longer suitable for man to live in.

But, if that be the case, God is still faithful to nourished the undernourished "rest of her seed" for the duration of the trial.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:6)
And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (v.12)

I do not object to believing a physical place or places for refugees is indicated by "fled into the wilderness."
But we must remember the trial is over the whole inhabited earth.

the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10b)

Will all the woman's seed go to one small area? I doubt that one geographic area of safety is meant there.

 

[oikonomia]

In all your meandering, you admit that we “cannot rehearse having your body taken away to heaven.” But that is what the title of your thread encourages: The Need to Practice Rapture

I admit that the title chosen was intentionally to attract interest;
It attracted you apparently.

Your title encourages the need to rehearse having our bodies taken away to heaven, which you had to admit isn’t possible when challenged.

No it doesn't. It encourages believers to really think about what it means to turn to the Lord Jesus and abide in Him.
You see "Lot's wife" physically left Sodom. Yet she was turned into a pillar of salt because her HEART was still back in Sodom.

The exhortation of the Lord is "Remember Lot’s wife" (Luke 17:32)
Too many forget about Lot's wife when the Lord said to remember her.

So more discussion needs to be about making sure our HEARTS are removed from the world to be judged.
And this takes practice, repeated exercises to turn our hearts to the Lord.

As said before this not only meets the believers' need to be sanctified.
It also meets the need of the Triune God that His people become His "habitation of God in spirit". (Eph. 2:22)
That is filled in their living, their personality, their reactions, with abiding in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Do you care about God's need being met?

And none of the texts you cite convey we should rehearse having our bodies taken to heaven. They relate our mind should dwell on heavenly matters, which is completely different.

The texts then do just what I intend them to do. Cause believers to "Remember Lot's wife" or set the mind on Christ and His things
above. This thread is intended to be in the same spirit as the practice implied in verses like this:

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:1-3)

As I said, you should “rehearse” how to express yourself more coherently.

Sure rehearse. The next time you are under temptation call "O Lord Jesus. Lord I love You. Lord I turn my heart to You."
If you practice this turning to the Lord you'd find inward grace will remove you from all that distracts you from God to Christ.

Another practice is to speak the word of God with your spirit. Another way is to call "Abba Father."
Another way is to praise from the heart all that Christ IS which is everything we need.
The bottom line is that we abide in Him and He takes our heart to Himself fast.

One day the call will come to turn to Him for the taking of our bodies.
We daily exercise to "abide in Him". This is the "watching."

The benefit is that we have practiced and if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

And while I do agree that it is profitable to dwell in heavenly matters,

Good enough. No argument then.

I don’t think it is profitable or needful or possible to PRACTICE RAPTURE.

We should practice being happy in the Lord such that He removes our hearts from this passing world.

But you, brothers, are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief;
For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
So then let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober. (1 Thess. 5:4-6)

And lastly and then I’ll leave you alone; in my opinion, pretrib posts are only profitable for exposing errors, if one has enough surfeit time.

Goodbye.
Your brief participation I think really helped to bring out the truth of the word.
The Lord be with your spirit.

 

[Jan001]

They already have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. That has been a fact since the thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day Jesus said it is finished.

This is not my understanding. Our spirits, like the thief's spirit, go their own places after we die. Jesus judges us immediately after our death.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

The rich man's spirit went to hell immediately after his death and judgment, and after his death and judgment, Lazarus's spirit immediately went to the bosom of Abraham to await Jesus' death on the cross.

We receive our incorruptible bodies at the time of the resurrection of all the the dead.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

I don't think that Jesus' statement, "It is finished," had anything to do with the thief entering paradise. I think His statement meant that Jesus had fulfilled all that was prophesied concerning Him in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.

Before Jesus' death He stated:

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

After Jesus' resurrection, He stated:

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

Death was finished for all those in Christ. The entire OT redeemed came out of their graves all over the earth. They all ascended to Paradise on Sunday morning with Jesus.

I don't find this supported by Scripture. The graves near Jerusalem's earthquake were opened by the earthquake, and many bodies of the saints were raised. It does not state that they became incorruptible at that time. It does not state that these bodies ascended incorruptible into heaven. Most likely, these corruptible bodies returned to their graves to await their incorruptible resurrection at the end of time.

Matthew 27:51-53 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Paul points out no one missed that resurrection. They would all enter Paradise upon physical death.

That generation was the generation that would never taste death, by entering sheol or Abraham's bosom ever again.

"It is finished" means it was finished.

Where did Paul point out that no one missed that resurrection?

It is the last generation, the generation that is present on earth when Jesus returns at His second appearing, it is they who will not taste death.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Jan001]

That is certainly true.
And those who lived and died watching as He exhorted will not have done so in vain.
These will be rewarded with a pre-great tribulation resurrection and rapture.

And some living will join them in a pre-great tribulation rapture.

I don't believe there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. The only "rapture" will be at Jesus' second appearing on earth.

Jesus died on the cross during His first appearing. At His second appearing, He will come to judge all people who are still living on earth and all people who have already died.

Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Jesus' First appearing:

2 Timothy 1:8-11 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Jesus' Second appearing at the end of time:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And then Jesus immediately judges everyone at the Sheep and Goat Judgment/White Throne Judgment.

 

[Jan001]

Can you explain why this need to develop the habit of walking with the Lord (watching) is
effected by this? I don't understand how we being alive for the paruosia or being deceased at the
paruousia makes any difference.

Why should the day of your death before the parousia hinder you from living a watching life as He
commands?

However He did say - And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mark 13;37)

So then the OP is of no practical purpose for you ??

I can't find Scriptural support that there is a pre-tib "rapture". I do find Scriptural support that there is an end of time "rapture".

When we physically die is when we are judged. If we are still alive at the moment of Jesus' second appearing at the end of time, we will not physically die. We will be immediately judged as either worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life and then we will either go to be with the sheep who are meeting Jesus in the air or we will go to be with the goats who will be condemned.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

We should be watchful that we remain in the state of sanctifying grace at all times so that we are always ready to meet Jesus.

 

[JulieB67]

Watching solely outward events is like the watching of those who follow Nostradamus predictions or astrologers or palm readers.

It's shameful to compare watching the signs that Christ laid out to watch to that of Nostradamus.

He gave us the events to watch for.

He states after laying out all the events-

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

That's what a watchmen does in case it should happen in their lifetime. No one knows the day or the hour but we are to know the signs.

And it goes without saying that a Christian should continually try to put the spirit over the flesh but that still doesn't take away from watching the signs and events that Christ laid out so the day does not overtake one as a thief as apparently it does to the Foolish Virgins who are waiting for the bridegroom. And those that Christ turn away stating he never knew them.

 

[oikonomia]

I can't find Scriptural support that there is a pre-tib "rapture". I do find Scriptural support that there is an end of time "rapture".

And you are correct to notice at the last trumpet a catching up of those who are alive and left remaining.

You see usually these two schools of opinion do not pay attention to the valid points of each other.
So the two major opinions is that the whole church is rapture before the GT or the whole church is raptured around its end.

Both are partially right. Neither is completely right because neither believes both an early taking and a latter taking could be the case.
Then when you see that God's crop on earth is about Him growing Christ withing people, it is expected
that there are early ripened ones and latter ripened ones.

In Revelation 14 God's saved crop is in two groups - firstfruits and harvest.
In between the Firstfruits seen in heaven and the Harvest raptured to the air are the events of the GT.

Both with the early rapture of a minority and the latter rapture a majority it is a matter of the growth
of Christ as life within them. Christ was imparted into man that Christ may grow and spread saturating man
to produce mature God-men.

If some are reaped before the great heat of the GT they will be firstfruits.
If the majority require the heat of the GT to help them they will be harvest.

When we physically die is when we are judged. If we are still alive at the moment of Jesus' second appearing at the end of time, we will not physically die. We will be immediately judged as either worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life and then we will either go to be with the sheep who are meeting Jesus in the air or we will go to be with the goats who will be condemned.

You are making the mistake of thinking that the judgment of the Matthew 25:31-46 is the last judgment or the same as the judgment
of the great white throne in Revelation 20.

This teaching starts this way -

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory.
And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25:31,32)

1.) This is a judfgment at the beginning of the millinnial kingdom and not at the end.
2.) This is a judgment of living people. Nothing is said about them being resurrected.

This has to be brief at this point. But this is not a resurrection to judgment or a judgment immediately following death.
This is a judgment of those who have passed through alive during the great tribulation.
That is a remainder of Gentile nations.

There are three groups mentioned and not two.
There are sheep. There are goats. And there are those to whom both sheep and goats are examined in relation to.
That third group is "the least of these my brothers."

In other words the basis of their being preserved to go into the millennium or going to the lake of fire
is a based upon how they treated through the great tribulation "the least of these my brothers."

I am sorry that this has to be brief this morning.
But I can add more to clarify latter.

You see with Jesus on His throne are His brothers. And on either side are the goats of the nations or the sheep of the nations.
How they treated the destitute, naked, unablee to purchase, imprisoned, hungry, sick harrassed victoms of the Antichrist
is the determining factor of their judgment. Those who followed Antichrist followed Satan explicitly. They go to the destiny prepared
for the devil and his angels.

Those who without realizing it were sympathetic to the Lord's brothers, down to the least of them, feared God.
They are transferred living into the millennial kingdom on earth. They are to be reigned over by those who
are rewarded to be co-kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they are served by priests of Christ for that long.

So we must not confuse the judgment of the sheep and the goats with the final last judgment AFTER the 1,000 years
of the rest of the dead in Revelation 20.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

We should be watchful that we remain in the state of sanctifying grace at all times so that we are always ready to meet Jesus.

This is a good point because at ANY stage of taking up by the Lord - watchfulness to live in the sphere and realm of Christ is an ingredient. So it is expected that the exhortation to be watchful would be universal.

At no juncture would the Lord mean there is NO NEED to be watchful to live unto Him.
Your point is a good one. But what if some heed it EARLY as they should have?

 

[oikonomia]

It's shameful to compare watching the signs that Christ laid out to watch to that of Nostradamus.

He gave us the events to watch for.

He states after laying out all the events-

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

That's what a watchmen does in case it should happen in their lifetime. No one knows the day or the hour but we are to know the signs.

Okay. Now tell me. Say a habitual fornicator becomes a born again Christian fascinated with prophecy. Yet
remains living in fornication not repenting and not allowing himself to be dispositionally sanctified by the Spirit.
Do you think knowing this or that sign will give him boldness to meet the Lord?

I do not think the knowing of objective signs will be that much profitable to him at Christ's coming.
Why? Not because God loves him less. But we are told to abide in Him that we may not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

You see this curiosity was strangely not enough to give such a one motivation to practice abiding in the Lord.
This curiosity somehow he did not connect with the need to live righteously.
Now look at the verse 29 following.

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been begotten of Him. (v.29)

Now I want you to contemplate this next question honestly.
In your time of being a Christian have you ever noticed that some dear brothers and sisters remain virtually
the same as when they first believed? I do not mean after a week. I mean after a decade or two or three or
throughout their whole Christian life.

The sad fact of life is that there are those whose saltiness has been lost.
And though they may be curious about signs they seem not to reflect - "What if the Lord should come today while
I have remained in this sinful state for so LONG a time?"

Going on a little further John writes that the hope of Christ's manifestation SHOULD cause one to purify himself in
cooperation with the sanctification process.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be.
We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is.
And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:2,3)

Am I right now JulieB67?

And it goes without saying that a Christian should continually try to put the spirit over the flesh but that still doesn't take away from watching the signs and events that Christ laid out so the day does not overtake one as a thief as apparently it does to the Foolish Virgins who are waiting for the bridegroom. And those that Christ turn away stating he never knew them.

Good. It goes. But it needs to be said more. It needs to be demonstrated more.

So you are correct that the Lord said "When you see these things . . . ".
But He also said "Remember Lot's wife".

If your heart is not removed from the place to be judged
it will be monumentally shameful that this is exposed when He comes to remove the rest of you.

"Remember Lot's wife"

IF you are still skeptical consider the Lord speaking about the servant who KNEW his master's will and the servant who
did not know too well his master's will. The master deals with each according to how much he should have KNOWN about
the will of the master. Am I right?

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;

But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (Luke 12:45-48)

 

[JulieB67]

Suppose one living in fornication becomes a born again Christian fascinated with prophecy, yet
remains living in fornication not repenting and not allowing himself to sanctified.

Hopefully this person can reach repentance But it's kind of a moot point with this person because the truth is not in that person as John states -if we walk in darkness the truth is not in us. So it has no bearing on Christians watching for the signs.

We are to continue to try and sanctify and as I stated put the spirit above the flesh. But as Christians it is our duty to watch for the signs so that day does not overtake us a thief as it will many..

Christ is laying of of the signs that Christians/watchmen need to look for. Only after these things have been fulfilled can one lift up their heads because their redemption draws near.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

But we are told to abide in Him

Yes, abide in him means to continue in Him. One can practice what you call "rapture" all you want but if one falls away on the first watch (as it's written many will) and be taken by the first Christ on scene (as many are waiting for), the fake, you're are most definitely not "abiding" in him. That's what the warnings are about by both Christ and Paul. Christ states if the say Christ is here or there, believe it not. He's telling this to the disciples, the very first Christians who were also to spread this word and all of Christ's teachings.

But we are told to abide in Him that we may not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

Yes, because many will fall away -depart from the faith in the latter times.

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

That's because most of the world will have bought in to the fake peace and safety. They will have believed the savior will have already returned. Satan and his will mimic Christ -Satan will be disguised as that angel of light. Paul's word. When the true Christ returns, they are in for quite a shock.

One must have the full gospel armor on and in place if that should happen in their lifetime. Part of that armor is the Word of God. If one isn't prepared for for what Christ laid out you are in danger of taking part in that latter day falling away. Because you are expecting the true Christ first. That's why he states he comes at an hour most do not expect.

 

[oikonomia]

The Apostle Paul urged those under his shepherding to "practice these things."
What things were these? They were the things which they heard and learned and saw in Paul.
Ie. the way brother Paul lived and expressed Christ.

The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me,
practice these things; and the God of peace will be with you. (Phil. 4:9)

 

[JulieB67]

The Apostle Paul urged those under his shepherding to "practice these things."
What things were these? They were the things which they heard and learned and saw in Paul.
Ie. the way brother Paul lived and expressed Christ.

He doesn't state we should practice "rapture" those are your words.

And of course a Christian should always try and do what's righteous. But part of being a Christian is to heed the warnings put out by Christ and watch for the signs he laid out. It's only right we should be doing that as well. Or are you suggesting the signs he lays out are pointless? And the warning about deception is pointless?

Paul also told us to watch so that day does not overtake one as a thief. Same teaching as Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

Hopefully this person can reach repentance

Yes. Hopefully our prayers for others will cause them to receive mercy.

But it's kind of a moot point with this person because the truth is not in that person as John states -if we walk in darkness the truth is not in us. So it has no bearing on Christians watching for the signs.

It is the essence of watching.
While we observe Israel beomming a nation again 1948, or the retaking of Jersusalem, or the eventual rebuilding of a temple for
an antichrist to sit in, we ALSO watch that we live as those born of God ought to live.

This is show it ought to be - as experienced John enouraged his audience to so live.

And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure.
Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

And you know that He was manifested that He might take away sins; and sin is not in Him.
Everyone who abides in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.

He was manifested that He might take away the sin in our living.
Gradually, in successive stages, growing in us. And to this we should watch. [my caps below]

Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous;
He who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God.

It is either way a matter of practice, isn't it?
Then John says the boldness comes because as He is, so are we in this world.

In this has love been perfected with us, that we may have boldness in the day of the judgment
because even as He is, so also are we in this world. (1 John 4:17)

We are to continue to try and sanctify and as I stated put the spirit above the flesh. But as Christians it is our duty to watch for the signs so that day does not overtake us a thief as it will many..

I have found it is not in our striving. We only get in the way. It is in taking Christ within us as everything we need.
Only Christ is the watchful one.
Only Christ is absolute for the Father's will.
We have to lay our hands on Him as the Israelites would lay hands on the consecration offering.

He have no merit of our own. We must take Christ as everything we need.
And we must turn our hearts to Him to behold and reflect Him so the Spirit can metabolically transform us into the same image.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:18)

So the watching is not just "these things" as the outward events but the gazing in our spirit at the index of His face.
Lingering with our hearts turned to Him that we may reflect Him.

It is very effective to start each day with a time with the Lord.

Christ is laying of of the signs that Christians/watchmen need to look for. Only after these things have been fulfilled can one lift up their heads because their redemption draws near.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yes, abide in him means to continue in Him. One can practice what you call "rapture" all you want but if one falls away on the first watch (as it's written many will) and be taken by the first Christ on scene (as many are waiting for), the fake, you're are most definitely not "abiding" in him. That's what the warnings are about by both Christ and Paul. Christ states if the say Christ is here or there, believe it not. He's telling this to the disciples, the very first Christians who were also to spread this word and all of Christ's teachings.

There is no "but" to the need to abide in the Lord.

In Matthew 24,25 Jesus speaks to His disciples according to two statuses that they had.
They are taught according to their status as Israelites. (Matthew 24:1-31)
And they are taught according to their status as members of the Christian church. (Mattew 24:32-25:30)

The the word about them not to look here or there for Christ is spoken in the first section (24:1-31).
On the grounds of them being of the theocratic nation expecting a Messiah they should not be deceived
that He is on earth here or there.

And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?
And Jesus answered and said to them, See that no one leads you astray.
For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. (Matt. 24:3-5)

This section ends with verse 31 about Christ's public manifestation in tumultuos glory world wide.
Verses 30-31.

And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen together from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other end.

Then from verse 32 He speaks to them according not to their national status but as consituents of the church.
And this talk (to the SAME disciples) continues through to chapter 24:32 - 25:30.

In terms of national Israel Christ's second coming will be greatly heralded in such a unmistakable cosmic manifestation.
In terms of His expectation for them as constituents of the church He warns He is coming as a thief, secretively and unannounced.

The same listeners are to heed both aspects of the last times.
We of the church can draw from either section.
Of course we too ought not be deceived by false prophets and false christs.
But the audience of His answering the questions of His coming and the signs and so forth of verse 3 have this
two fold intention.

1.) To answer according to messianic hopes of national Israel (of which the disciples were constituents)
2.) To answer according to the coming of Christ to the church (of which also the disciples were going to be members).

The dividing line is at verses 31 and 32.

Now this distinction is not as pronounced in the Gospel of Luke though much of the
same teaching is recorded.

That's because most of the world will have bought in to the fake peace and safety. They will have believed the savior will have already returned. Satan and his will mimic Christ -Satan will be disguised as that angel of light. Paul's word. When the true Christ returns, they are in for quite a shock.

I agree that a fake security and fake peace and safety are on the world's horizon.

For instance concerning the false prophet in Revelation 13:11
And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:11)

He like Antichrist appears innocent, righteous, and even reminiscient of Jesus.
Yet those with discernment can detect the nature of Satan in his speech.
he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon.

The first three and a half years of the Antichrist he will seem a great intelligent solver of
world problems. Then he is killed and resuscitated as the MOST evil personage in human history.

We have beeb forewarned thank God.
And before he and his false prophet are manifested the early secretive rapture will occur.
Soon after he is KILLED and brought back to life by Satanic operation.
The good man on the good side of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will
rescusitate into the other extreme - the most evil man of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He might be alive today and we do not know it.
Or he might not be born yet. We do not know that.

But he comes welcomed at first as a great peace maker.
And he is assasinated and becomes one to oppose ALL theistic faiths proclaming
that he is god to be worshipped.

And they worshipped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him?

And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty-two months.

And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven.

And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority was given to him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

And all those dwelling on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:4-8)

At any rate the normal Christian life is one of watching to live in and unto Jesus Christ.
And for this we need one another. It grows best in the environment of mutual love and fellowship.

One must have the full gospel armor on and in place if that should happen in their lifetime. Part of that armor is the Word of God. If one isn't prepared for for what Christ laid out you are in danger of taking part in that latter day falling away. Because you are expecting the true Christ first. That's why he states he comes at an hour most do not expect.

Amen that we need the full armor of God and the sword of the Spirit the word of God.
This requires also practice. And the full armor of God is a body matter of fighting the battle in the Body of Christ.

Fight the battle in the Body,
Never fight it on your own;
With the Body to the Head joined,
Fight the battle on the throne.

Fight the battle in the Body!
By the virtue of the Head;
Standing firmly with the Body,
Into vict’ry you’ll be led.

For the Body is God’s armor,
Not for anyone alone;
When you wrestle in the Body,
All its benefits you own.

’Tis the Church on Christ established
Satan shall not overpow’r;
’Tis the Body built together
Which resists the evil pow’r.

In the Body, by the Headship,
Sitting in the heavenlies,
Struggle with the wicked spirits
And the principalities.

As a member of the Body,
With the brethren stand for God;
Praying always in the Spirit,
Claim the vict’ry through the Blood.

In the heav’nlies more than conqu’ror,
In the power of His might,
As a soldier in the army,
In the Lord the battle fight.

Keep on wrestling in the Body,
Mighty vict’ry you will see,
Bind and loose, God’s will fulfilling,
And the foes your food will be.

Lyrics:
Witness Lee (1905-1997) bio
Music:
Philip Paul Bliss (1838-1876)

Copied from Hymn: Fight the battle in the Body

where one can hear the melody.

 

[Timtofly]

This is not my understanding. Our spirits, like the thief's spirit, go their own places after we die. Jesus judges us immediately after our death.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

The rich man's spirit went to hell immediately after his death and judgment, and after his death and judgment, Lazarus's spirit immediately went to the bosom of Abraham to await Jesus' death on the cross.

We receive our incorruptible bodies at the time of the resurrection of all the the dead.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

I don't think that Jesus' statement, "It is finished," had anything to do with the thief entering paradise. I think His statement meant that Jesus had fulfilled all that was prophesied concerning Him in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.

Before Jesus' death He stated:

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

After Jesus' resurrection, He stated:

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

I don't find this supported by Scripture. The graves near Jerusalem's earthquake were opened by the earthquake, and many bodies of the saints were raised. It does not state that they became incorruptible at that time. It does not state that these bodies ascended incorruptible into heaven. Most likely, these corruptible bodies returned to their graves to await their incorruptible resurrection at the end of time.

Matthew 27:51-53 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Where did Paul point out that no one missed that resurrection?

It is the last generation, the generation that is present on earth when Jesus returns at His second appearing, it is they who will not taste death.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

So you are saying the OT was not finished by Jesus on the Cross, but all were still held in the bondage of death given to Adam and Eve?

The work of the Cross will only be finished sometime in the future?

Jesus did not mean it is finished, but it will be finished later?

Paul explained: 2 Thessalonians 2

"By our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

They were either being told no other resurrection would happen other than the Cross, or that no resurrection could ever happen, because they were already in the day of Christ and that was as good as it gets.

You seem to deny that the OT redeemed were resurrected permanently. That they once again had to be subjected to death until the GWT Judgment. Why would you allow a resurrection at the Second Coming, but not one at the First Coming, since Jesus declared on the Cross, that even death was finished for those in Christ?

Some limit the promise made by Jesus as being future.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Why could this not describe going to the Cross, and returning after 3 days? From that point on, all in Christ would be with Jesus in heaven. Being received in Christ does not necessitate physical death to happen immediately. It does mean that physical death is the door to eternal life instead of tasting death and stuck in the grave with the rest of the dead for thousands of years.

When Jesus said it is finished, that place was prepared, because the Cross was the point that allowed Adam's offspring to be made alive and allowed to enter Paradise. The Cross was the means of preparation. Just like every sin offering prepared one under the OT. The Cross was the one and only necessary offering that God required to enter Paradise.

The Law of Moses was not the only aspect of what needed to be finished. There was a promise by God in Genesis 3 as well.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

 

[Jan001]

You see usually these two schools of opinion do not pay attention to the valid points of each other.
So the two major opinions is that the whole church is rapture before the GT or the whole church is raptured around its end.

Both are partially right. Neither is completely right because neither believes both an early taking and a latter could be the case.
Then when you see that God's crop on earth is about Him growing Christ withing people, it is expected
that there are early ripened ones and latter ripened ones.

In Revelation 14 God's saved crop is in two groups - firstfruits and harvest.
In between the Firstfruits seen in heaven and the Harvest raptured to the air are the events of the GT.

Firstfruits is Jesus Christ who received His immortal and incorruptible resurrected body at the time of His resurrection from the dead.

We must wait until Jesus returns at His second coming to receive our immortal and incorruptible bodies.

Harvest is in the future. This will occur at Jesus' second appearing/coming.

1 Corinthians 15:20-27 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”

After Jesus died on the cross, He released all of the righteous spirits in Hades and they accompanied Him to heaven. Their spirits had attained eternal life with God in heaven. I think this was the first resurrection. These spirits are reigning in heaven right now with Jesus and they will reign with Him until His second appearing at the end of time. This is the "a thousand years" reign. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

I also think that the spirits of all the righteous people who have died since that first resurrection are also reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will reign with Him until His second coming, which will be at the end of the "a thousand years" time period.


2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he will also deny us;

The righteous persons who are still on earth at His second appearing will be changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible as they rise up to meet Him in the air in order to accompany Him to the Final Judgment. Physical death is destroyed forever at His second coming/appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

The second appearing/coming of Jesus to earth is when the righteous persons who are still living on earth meet Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Satan was bound in hell for this same “a thousand years” at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

Revelation 20:1-6 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.

I believe Satan is unbound now. He is deceiving the nations presently.

The power of Jesus' death on the cross bound (restricted) Satan's power and mobility for "a thousand years".

Immediately after Jesus' second appearing will be the public judgment of all people. This judgment is called the white throne judgment and metaphorically the judgment of the sheep and goats. There is only one public judgment and it is at the end of time.

John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Jesus will not come bodily to earth three times.

Jesus came the first time to die on the cross to forgive our sins. He will come a second time accompanied by all the angels and all the newly resurrected saints to meet in the air all the righteous persons who are still left on earth. He will come to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Acts 1:11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

After Jesus returns with His angels and His saints to meet those who are eagerly waiting for Him, the final judgment will begin.

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[g] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.

The throne of His glory is the great white throne.

 

[oikonomia]

Firstfruits is in the past. This occurred at Jesus' first appearing/coming.

Harvest is in the future. This will occur at Jesus' second appearing/coming.

1 Corinthians 15:20-27 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”

This passage says that Christ individually is the firstfruits - Christ the firstfruits,
In contrast the firstfruits mentioned in Revelation 14:1-6 are numbered - 144,000.
Whether this a actual literal number or a symbolic one or both, a collective is obvious.

They are those who - follow the Lamb wherever He may go. (14:4b)
So they are not the Lamb - "Christ the firstfruits"
Christ the firstfruits did the purchasing in His death.
But these are purchased ones - These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (14:4b)

In the resurrection of men into a new God-man humanity there can be both "Christ the firstfruits" three days after His
redemptive death and 144,000 firstfruits raptured living shortly before the events of the 3.5 years GT.

In this way there is a rapture of living followers of Christ as firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-6)
and resurrection and rapture of deceased followers of Christ as the man-child (Rev. 12:2,5,10-11,12a)

Both subgroups of the entire church universal are taken before the GT.
It is interesting that the pushback against this is the theory that both represent the Christ the individual.

After Jesus died on the cross, He released all of the righteous spirits in Hades and they accompanied Him to heaven. Their spirits had attained eternal life with God in heaven. I think this was the first resurrection. These spirits are reigning in heaven right now with Jesus and they will reign with Him until His second appearing at the end of time. This is the "a thousand years" reign. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

The concept of the spirits of men in heaven is contrary to what Paul said they longed for. That was not to be
found naked but clothed up with a transfigured body. For naked spirits of men to appear befire God in heaven
is for men who still have the trace of death upon them being unclothed naked souls.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.
For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4)

I believe then that as long as redeemed men are unclothed with a transfigured body the place for them is in paradise beneath
temporarily and not heaven. The mark of death must be totally eradicated for men to appear before God in heaven.
However, in a relative sense, in paradise they are more with the Lord then in flesh with Him on earth.

But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better;
But to remain in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (Phil. 1:23,24)

David has not ascended into heaven.
For David did not ascend into the heavens, (Acts 32:34a)
I doubt then that any new testament saints have yet ascended into heaven unclothed.
They with David and the saved of the OT are in paradise where Jesus went the day He died.

Some believe for Jesus to lead a train of captive foes in ascension was for Him to take
to heaven some saints already. I do not thing so though. But I do not know for certain.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God.

Yes. This is a scene of resurrected martyrs at the end of the GT at the commencement of the 1,000 year restoration.
What makes the firstfruits taken before this time have a unique song is based upon their unique experience.
That is the experience of never having died at all. Rather like Enoch they lived and walked so with God they appear
raptured into heaven.

No one else in the universal church has this experience since the vast majority expired.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (Rev. 14:2,3)

Now it is true that at the last trumpet many living who were left remaining are raptured to the air alive.
But their song or their rejoicing will not be exactly the same as those with the unique experience of pre GT following the Lamb within them
right into heaven.

They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

I also think that the spirits of all the righteous people who have died since that first resurrection are also reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will reign with Him until His second coming, which will be at the end of the "a thousand years" time period.

All I would say to this is that love hopes all things.
I do not hold it against anyone to have hope like this.

But the weight of the Scripture I think does not lean this way.
Can you tell me a bit more why you feel Scripture shows you this?

2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he will also deny us;

Amen to this. It speaks to the fact of reigning without regard to time except "will also reign" indicates future to Paul's statement.

The righteous persons who are still on earth at His second appearing will be changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible as they rise up to meet Him in the air in order to accompany Him to the Final Judgment. Physical death is destroyed forever at His second coming/appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So before "the last trumpet" you do not see any resurrections or raptures.

This would mean that the man-child raptured before the last trumpet, ie. before the 1,260 days could not be.
But Jesus rose and ascended to the throne of God long before the commencement of the last three and one half years of
the present age.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)

Do you believe the last trumpet will be before the finishing of the three and one half years or at its beginning?
Immediately after the man-child is raptured the remainder of the woman, the larger portion, which is "the rest of her seed"
are persecuted a year, then two years, then half a year. That is "a time, and times, and half a time."

And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. (v.14)