The Monergism Safe House

JM

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God justifies (present tense verb) the UNGODLY.

Boxer


I offered a free epub that I created containing the works of Job Hupton. Hupton offers some thoughts on the common objection below.

"It is, I think, evident upon the face of this objection, that the reasonings of your mind are something like the following : "a person cannot be, at the same time, in a state of condemnation, and a state of justification; but unbelievers are in a state of condemnation; therefore, unbelievers are not in a state of justification." This reasoning is false, and it affects some other grand leading truths of the everlasting gospel, as much as it does eternal justification; truths which are delivered by the lip of divine eternal truth, in terms equally strong, positive, and unequivocal, with those in which the condemnation of unbelievers is expressed; and which it is thought you, Sir, with all your objections, would confess, as a part of your creed, and publish without hesitation, as the glory of the gospel : the truths to which I allude, are the eternity of God's love to his elect, their eternal blessedness in Christ, and their redemption from the curse by the death of Christ. The following arguments, framed upon the same principle as the above, which is supposed to militate with justification before faith, might be introduced, with some degree of plausibility, to prove that the love of God to the elect, their blessedness in Jesus, and their redemption are not prior to faith.

First, no man can be at the same time, a child of wrath, and an object of God's love; but the elect are, by nature, the children of wrath even as others; therefore, while they are in a state of nature, they are not the objects of God's love. Now contrast this argument with the declarations of scripture, and the fallacy of it will be obvious and the danger of adopting your mode of reasoning will appear.

"I have loved thee with an everlasting love."

"Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

"Thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me."

"God who is rich in mercy, for the great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, bath quickened us together with Christ."


Secondly, persons cannot in the nature of things, be under the blessing of God and the curse of the law at the same instant; but unbelievers are under the curse of the law, therefore unbelievers are not under the blessing of God. Now this is quite discordant with that inspired apostolic testimony;

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who bath blessed us with all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, according as he bath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world."

Here the eternal election of God's people, and their eternal blessedness, as founded upon that election, and inseparable from it are positively declared ; and will you conclude, that because these persons are said to be under the curse, while they are unbelievers, this testimony is untrue, and that they were not eternally blessed? Surely not. Why then object on that ground to eternal justification? Can you draw a line of distinction between justification and blessedness, and separate the one from the other?


Thirdly, no man can be redeemed from the curse of the law and yet be under that curse; but the people of God are under it till they believe in Jesus; therefore they are not redeemed till they believe in him. This argument is in direct opposition to that well known declaration:

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." The manifestation of the redemption of Christ to the hearts of the redeemed adds nothing to it; no, it was as complete when the Redeemer uttered those ever memorable words, "It is finished," as ever it will be; and the elect were as perfectly redeemed from the curse then, as they are after they believe, or as they will be when they are glorified. Much the same maybe said of justification ; neither the application of it to the heart, nor our faith in Jesus, contributes to the perfection of it, much less gives being to it, any more than the application of a plaister impregnates it with healing virtue, or gives being to that plaister; or the mouth by the act of receiving -food, adds to its goodness.


And here it may be proper to observe, that the unbelieving elect, stand in a twofold relation ; that through grace they are related to Christ, in whom they were chosen in eternity, and by nature to Adam; that as they stand related to the former, they are, and ever were, within the bond of the everlasting covenant of grace in which their justification is, and ever was complete ; that as they stand related to the latter, they are under the covenant of works, and its dreadful menace ; that when God declares them condemned, he utters his voice in the law, and speaks truth of them, and to them, as they are related to Adam, as under the law, and as in their fallen state ; that he thus speaks with a gracious design for their conviction, to make them sensible of their need of Christ, and to demolish all their legal dependences, hopes, and expectations ; that having reduced them to despair of obtaining salvation by the ministration of death, he utters his voice in the gospel, speaks to them as they stand related to Jesus, declares the great transaction past, and brings down the immortal blessing of justification, and reveals it to them as .the fruit of his stupendous love laid up in him, in whom it pleased him that all fulness should dwell, even in eternity." [end quote]
 
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JM

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Your "eternal justification" teaching implies that the elect were never condemned in the first Adam.

And;

Boxer said:
It is the LAW and not God that condemns.

Job Hupton,

"In this objection, you suppose that the justification of the elect in eternity, is inconsistent with their condemnation in time. But please to view them as connected with both the first and the second Adam ; and as related to the two covenants, that of grace made with Christ, their spiritual head and representative, and with them as chosen in him in eternity ; and that of works made with Adam, their natural head and representative, and with them as created in him, in time ; and then, it is thought, you may easily perceive, how they might be completely justified in the former, and yet in time be justly condemned in the latter.


They who believe the eternal justification of the elect to be a truth, do not deny their condemnation by the law, but consider them as standing in a twofold capacity, members of Christ and children of Adam ; and in that justified in eternity as perfectly as if they were not condemned in time; and in this condemned in time, as completely as if they had not been justified in eternity. Nor is there any inconsistency in this, any more than there is in believing that Christ was, in different characters, at once infinitely blessed, and rigourously cursed ; infinitely blessed as the Son of the Father ; rigourously cursed as the surety of sinners." [end quote]


 
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Jack Terrence

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They who believe the eternal justification of the elect to be a truth, do not deny their condemnation by the law, but consider them as standing in a twofold capacity, members of Christ and children of Adam
Herein lies the problem. The elect cannot be in union with Adam and in union with Christ at the same time. This idea is based on a mis-application of the expression "in Christ." Many erroneously think that the elect were in covenantal union with Christ before the foundation of the world. But the Greek preposition "ev" (in) should mean "because of" or "on the basis of." Please see Reformed author George Smeaton's The Apostle's Doctrine of the Atonement and Moulton's The Analytical Greek Lexicon.

A more proper rendering should be:

"As He chose us because of Him before the foundation of the world."

This rendering makes the inherent contradictions in eternal justification doctrine disappear. We were first in Adam covenantally and THEN in Christ covenantally.
 
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JM

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Boxer, you have 20 posts and have obviously come to duke it out, but I'm not interested in arguing. I have given more than enough for the readers to ponder in the form of posts and links.

To the reader, consider what Boxer has written and what I have posted.


Unsubscribed.
 
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twin1954

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Boxer,
I am out as well. I don't debate. If you debate what you believe what you believe is debatable. I am firm in what I believe and why so I don't need to prove it to others by debate. If you are interested in learning why I believe what I do I will glady tell you but I am not going to debate anything.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Boxer,
I am out as well. I don't debate. If you debate what you believe what you believe is debatable. I am firm in what I believe and why so I don't need to prove it to others by debate. If you are interested in learning why I believe what I do I will glady tell you but I am not going to debate anything.
I went over the rules and discovered that there is a forum which is specifically designated for unorthodox theology. The eternal justification doctrine is unorthodox theology. It seems to me that it should not have been introduced here.

You found fault with my citing the WCF in a forum for [orthodox] Monergism. This was a first for me. I have discoursed with Reformed people who dissent from the WCF. I myself dissent from it on some points. But never have I been faulted by a Reformed person for appealing to it until now.

Blessings,

Boxer
 
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twin1954

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I went over the rules and discovered that there is a forum which is specifically designated for unorthodox theology. The eternal justification doctrine is unorthodox theology. It seems to me that it should not have been introduced here.

You found fault with my citing the WCF in a forum for [orthodox] Monergism. This was a first for me. I have discoursed with Reformed people who dissent from the WCF. I myself dissent from it on some points. But never have I been faulted by a Reformed person for appealing to it until now.

Blessings,

Boxer
I am a Baptist, monergist, five point believer, Modified Covenatal but I am not Reformed. I have been called a heretic, antinomian and many other things so unorthodox just bounces off. Suffice to say that eternal justification is an accepted theological view whether you think so or not. Now I am done.
 
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crimsonleaf

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How do you tell others that you choose cause God caused you to chose and at the same time, God didn't force you to chose? Is it like Choosing without choosing? Perhaps you can't really chose something that is already there meaning free will choosing doesn't exist.

Pate saying you must chose on your own is the same as the arminian instructions to accept something not already there or partially there or are they saying it's already there but you must accept it as already being there. How do you accept sometihng already there? How do you really accept your arm if it's already there or born with it?


I hate to say we're robots but there no better way of saying it.

I think the Confessions are clear in pointing out that regeneration does no violence to man's will. On that basis, I conclude that God doesn't tell me or force me to believe, he ALLOWS or ENABLES me to. The decision to choose God is mine and where my will was previously bound in sin it is now free in Christ. But I do believe it not that man CANNOT choose other than God, but that once his will is truly free he WILL NOT without exception. To encounter the glory of God leaves man for the first time with the choice between eternal love, life and glory or eternal damnation. Who would choose the latter?

I'd welcome correction from my more learned brethren on this, but to me it seems consistent with scripture and counters any argument about forced salvation.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Suffice to say that eternal justification is an accepted theological view whether you think so or not.
I did not deny that eternal justification is "an accepted view." I said that it is unorthodox. Full Preterism is also "an accepted view."

The eternal justification doctrine is unorthodox whether you think so or not. I believe that it does violence to the gospel message. Would you like to debate it in the proper forum?
 
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twin1954

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I did not deny that eternal justification is "an accepted view." I said that it is unorthodox. Full Preterism is also "an accepted view."

The eternal justification doctrine is unorthodox whether you think so or not. I believe that it does violence to the gospel message. Would you like to debate it in the proper forum?
No. As I said I don't debate.
 
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DeaconDean

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Full Preterism is also "an accepted view."

Not here it isn't.

That is only allowed in the "Unorthodox Theology" area as it should be.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Thanks brother. A great psalm.

If God has created a clean heart, and renewed a right spirit, how can one have not the will of God in them and chose not to accept and believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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bsd058

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I think the Confessions are clear in pointing out that regeneration does no violence to man's will. On that basis, I conclude that God doesn't tell me or force me to believe, he ALLOWS or ENABLES me to. The decision to choose God is mine and where my will was previously bound in sin it is now free in Christ. But I do believe it not that man CANNOT choose other than God, but that once his will is truly free he WILL NOT without exception. To encounter the glory of God leaves man for the first time with the choice between eternal love, life and glory or eternal damnation. Who would choose the latter?

I'd welcome correction from my more learned brethren on this, but to me it seems consistent with scripture and counters any argument about forced salvation.
Let me reiterate what I think you are saying: you believe that when God regenerates a man, that man WILL necessarily come freely to God. The grace itself is irresistible, but the choice is free, and the one who receives this regenerating grace will necessarily freely choose God and salvation. Is this what you are trying to say?
 
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