The Messianic was the first congregation
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Thank you sir! And please note that I am not recommending any particular denomination. In this day and time I believe a good senior pastor is the greatest asset in any particular church approved here on the CF. And that one must research a church before making any kind of commitments.
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It is like lampposts along the spiritual journey to God. Each gathering is at a certain level in which the congregation can comprehend, appreciate and play a role in His world and work. Philidelphia of Revelation was known for brotherly love, but it is not known for much else. Yet this congregation was much loved and appreciated by God.
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I believe it is a great time to be a Messianic and to have opportunity to walk as Christ walks... In the midst of the seven golden candlesticks...
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1
If I were to recommend anything to the Messianic it would be to attend your Messianic congregation and walk as you have opportunity among the other congregations. We have a Messianic brother (whom we named Professor Richard) who does this and also attends our bible study on Wednesday mornings. I was asking him about Job and how he got all that information about God pre-convenant, and his answer was from Noah himself! To me it is always a pleasure to here a Messianic speak in church.
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1
If I were to recommend anything to the Messianic it would be to attend your Messianic congregation and walk as you have opportunity among the other congregations. We have a Messianic brother (whom we named Professor Richard) who does this and also attends our bible study on Wednesday mornings. I was asking him about Job and how he got all that information about God pre-convenant, and his answer was from Noah himself! To me it is always a pleasure to here a Messianic speak in church.
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As I have stated I believe the Messianic to be the first congregation. I am wondering what Bible the Messianic prefer? And the time in history such a compilation occurred? In researching the King James it didn't come about until what I would call Sardisean times. Thanks.
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Aaron112
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There were a multitude of people who thought it was about "church" or "churches", so you might have a lot of company.
E.W.Bullinger has a totally different approach. I don't remember the book(s) by him, but they were still available online last year.
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If by belief, the Messianic are the first congregation, then you are looking at the apostles who are of ther Jewish faith and believe Yeshua is their Messiah. If you believe that Yeshua started a new religion where worship days have changed, and laws of God have changed, then you are in a majority of people who claim to worship the Bible God.
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The Original Apostles - Leadership of the first congregation.
The Apostle Paul - Leadership of the second congregation
The Apostles basically handing the second congregation over to Paul -
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. - Galatians 2
What was the second congregation in for? Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. - Revelation 2:10
If you study the Foxes Book of Martyrs you will find ten defined persecutions...
Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD
Constantine was no friends with the Jews or the Romans so he created the church at Constantinople. Because of the barbarian onslaught during this church age it was necessary for it to move into castles or towers, which is purgos in the Greek. It is recorded that half the human population would die from the barbarian onslaught, the church therefore would need to dwell in fortified structures.The third church would become different than the first two.
I find the original Messianic church dissipating away very quickly due to persecution. I bring these things up as I would not be surprised of the reformation of the first congregation. In which I find seven congregations...
Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry
My recommendations for today's Messianic would be to...
1. Look up a local Messianic congregation
2. Blend in the best you can with the other six congregations.
I had a Messianic friend who would both attend our Pentecostal Holiness bible studies and visit Messianic fellowships as well. He got his doctorate degree and would teach at the local university as well. I have also heard an evangelist from Georgia who would speak at whatever churches would have him, and also fall back into a Messianic church in Georgia where I believe he held membership. In which I praised him for.
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He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Spoken seven times in Revelation
If I were to hear of a, "Spirit filled Messianic" speaking in our area I would with great interest want to drop in and hear what he has to say.
If I were to hear of a, "Spirit filled Messianic" speaking in our area I would with great interest want to drop in and hear what he has to say.
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Yusuphhai
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Messianic also finds it difficult to see the issue from the perspective of the Judah tribe, mostly from the perspective of Ephraim. From a Jewish perspective, Messianic also has logical flaws that make it difficult to explain who Ephraim is. From a general Christian perspective, the seven churches in Revelation are not divided according to historical periods, but rather seven church forms that span time and space. Literally, the seven churches were the seven entity churches in Asia Minor (now Türkiye). These seven churches appear to be on the verge of extinction but are also thriving, and represent the global church model.
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But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. - Galatians 1:11-12
I believe Paul was very much his own unique character. To sit under his teachings would have been very much a unique experience.
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation. - Romans 15:19-20
Causing him to go about establishing a different enlightenment of Yeshua different from what was previously taught. Still yet to have discovered what he kept from the foundations of his youth would have required to have spent time with the guy. Yet he seemed to have very much valued the title, "Apostle of the Gentiles."
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13
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be(t)et lamed resh
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Different enlightenment?
Do not forget that he also claimed the title, "hebrew of hebrews". So then with context paul is saying he is an Oracle/malakh/messenger to a people that never knew the promises. Which is detailed in many a books.
After all he also gave the gentiles a 4×4 rule foundation to plant on.
Yes, No?
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I really don't know. Though unsure of the manner of the man's lifestyle I do know he kept a love for Old Testament scripture...
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. - 2 Timothy 4:13
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"Ye shall have tribulation ten days..." - Revelation 2 :10
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD
It may be that the first two congregations, in which I would say were either Jew or Gentile, very quickly merged into one church. So that you were either Christian or Non-Christian. Interesting, though, that James begins his epistle...
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD
It may be that the first two congregations, in which I would say were either Jew or Gentile, very quickly merged into one church. So that you were either Christian or Non-Christian. Interesting, though, that James begins his epistle...
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1
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Yusuphhai
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Act 23:6 But when Paul saw that half of them were Sadducees and the rest Pharisees, he said in the Sanhedrin, Brothers, I am a Pharisee, and the son of Pharisees: I am here to be judged on the question of the hope of the coming back from the dead.
Why do many Christians dislike the Pharisees so much? Without rigorous logical Pharisee education (from Gamaliel), it is impossible to produce rigorous logical Paul theology. Paul never gave up his Pharisee identity and Hebrew name "Saul". No Western theologian can surpass the peak of Paul's theology and can only develop on his foundation. Yeshua（Jesus）and Saul (Paul) are both certified Rabbis.
Acts 11:26 and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.
Generally， acordding to tradition of Antioch, Gentile believers were called "Christian", Jewish believers were called "Messianic Jew".
The modern concept of “Christian” has been given more Westernized meanings, and its meaning is different from the traditional “Christian“ of Antioch. So there are some Messianic who do not identify with themselves as “Christian”.
Why do many Christians dislike the Pharisees so much? Without rigorous logical Pharisee education (from Gamaliel), it is impossible to produce rigorous logical Paul theology. Paul never gave up his Pharisee identity and Hebrew name "Saul". No Western theologian can surpass the peak of Paul's theology and can only develop on his foundation. Yeshua（Jesus）and Saul (Paul) are both certified Rabbis.
Acts 11:26 and the disciples were first given the name of Christians in Antioch.
Generally， acordding to tradition of Antioch, Gentile believers were called "Christian", Jewish believers were called "Messianic Jew".
The modern concept of “Christian” has been given more Westernized meanings, and its meaning is different from the traditional “Christian“ of Antioch. So there are some Messianic who do not identify with themselves as “Christian”.
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Paul towards the end of his ministry still contended his Jewishness, “I am verily a man who is a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day” (Acts 22:3).
Gamaliel appeared as a member of the Sanhedrin—the highest ruling body of the Jewish people. As Paul's teacher, we can gain more insight into his teacher's leanings and thus teachings, “Then stood there up one in the council a Pharisee, named Gamaliel a teacher of the law, held in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men . . . And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nothing; But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps ye be found even to fight against God” (Acts 5:34–35, 38–39). Paul said, “I studied under Gamliel and was thoroughly trained in the [Torah] law of our ancestors. (Acts 22:3)
When discussing his faith, he again clearly states his brand of Jewishness, “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee” (Phil. 3:5).
Paul described himself as “an Hebrew of the Hebrews” (Phil. 3:5) Hebrews were Jews who spoke primarily Hebrew (or Aramaic).
He presents the First Commandment to the Greeks by quoting Greek philosophers and poets:
“’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone — an image made by human design and skill.” (Acts 17:28–29)
Of course, this idea of not worshiping idols is one of the foundational commandments that God gave to Moses, but it was new to the Greeks.
Paul was preaching to Gentiles, he still spoke like a solid Jewish Rabbi, when he told them:
“Now He [God of Israel] commands all people everywhere to repent.” (Acts 17:30)
If a Jewish person heard this message, the words would have evoked the warnings of the Hebrew prophets, such as Ezekiel who told the Israelites:
“Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!” (Ezekiel 14:6)
Paul warned the people that judgment is coming, urging them to make a choice between worshiping their stone idols and the One True Living God of Israel.
In the same way, the Jewish Prophet Elijah challenged the idol worshipers of Israel, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” (1 Kings 18:21; see also Joshua 24:15)
Paul told them that this judgment would come “by the Man [Yeshua] He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31)
He testified to the Galatians that he “profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers” (Gal. 1:14).
Paul speaking to the Jewish crowd at the Temple, trying to convince them that he never stopped being Jewish. He reminds them:
“My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.” (Acts 23:6)
After all, Paul had kept the Biblical (Jewish) holidays (Acts 24:17), presented offerings, and kept ceremonial laws (Acts 18:21, 20:6,16).
And he saw fit to have his spiritual son Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3).
Even under house arrest in Rome, Paul calls together the leaders, rabbis, and teachers of the Jewish community (Acts 28:17) and addresses them as his brethren.
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The ten days of Rev 2:10 are first mentioned in Dan 1:12, and by the overall context in that same book, the tens days represent ten years of trials and tribulations given in the form of dreams and visions. The first three years are under the king of Babel, (Dan 1:5, (also typologically equivalent to "the Assyrian" in prophecy)). The next three years are under Belshazzar/Beltshazzar, (Dan 7:1, Dan 8:1). The year following is the first year of Darius the Mede, (Dan 9:1). The final great vision occurs in the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, (Dan 10:1), and these three sets of three years plus one add up a total of ten years of trial, testing, or tribulation, (Dan 1:12, Rev 2:10).
And in those ten years of tribulation are seventy weeks.
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Dispensationalism is a theological framework of interpreting the Bible which maintains that history is divided into multiple ages or "dispensations" in which God acts with his chosen people in different ways.
9 Now Absalom happened to meet David’s men. He was riding his mule, and as the mule went under the thick branches of a large oak, Absalom’s hair got caught in the tree. He was left hanging in midair, while the mule he was riding kept on going.
10 When one of the men saw what had happened, he told Joab, “I just saw Absalom hanging in an oak tree.” - 2 Samuel 18
Had Absalom kept his place in God there would have been no need for that event to happen.
I consider myself Wesleyan in which there have been many dispensations where God rode with us. Along with that ride were angels, Christ Jesus, The Holy Spirit, God himself, and a sense of heavenly entourage. Within that dispensation were evangelists, teachers, preachers, overseers, music ministry, and many a fine gentleman and lady. The ministry of DL Moody and Ira Sankey is an example of dispensation.
But... Like Absalom, there is possibility of getting into the wrong frame of mind. After a while the Holy Spirit gets tired of it and leaves us in our thick branches and goes elsewhere. This is aggravating as it is a wonderful sense of Spirit to walk in correct dispensation. Pictured below is the Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church in a fine sense of dispensation. Driving past that church to go somewhere else on Sunday morning is aggravating as I remember the fine sensation of dispensation. And now only two cars for Sunday service.
9 Now Absalom happened to meet David’s men. He was riding his mule, and as the mule went under the thick branches of a large oak, Absalom’s hair got caught in the tree. He was left hanging in midair, while the mule he was riding kept on going.
10 When one of the men saw what had happened, he told Joab, “I just saw Absalom hanging in an oak tree.” - 2 Samuel 18
Had Absalom kept his place in God there would have been no need for that event to happen.
I consider myself Wesleyan in which there have been many dispensations where God rode with us. Along with that ride were angels, Christ Jesus, The Holy Spirit, God himself, and a sense of heavenly entourage. Within that dispensation were evangelists, teachers, preachers, overseers, music ministry, and many a fine gentleman and lady. The ministry of DL Moody and Ira Sankey is an example of dispensation.
But... Like Absalom, there is possibility of getting into the wrong frame of mind. After a while the Holy Spirit gets tired of it and leaves us in our thick branches and goes elsewhere. This is aggravating as it is a wonderful sense of Spirit to walk in correct dispensation. Pictured below is the Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church in a fine sense of dispensation. Driving past that church to go somewhere else on Sunday morning is aggravating as I remember the fine sensation of dispensation. And now only two cars for Sunday service.
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The Apostle Paul and the dispensation. I would imagine that the Apostle Paul, who was indeed a Jew would have loved the privilege to minister to his own people. However...
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. - Acts 22
Paul worked the best when he ministered in the ministry where God would have him. In which Greece and Italy seemed the best fit....
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshiped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. - Acts 18
As far the ministry at Corinth it seems the Jews and the Gentiles were blessed alike. As one people. When we are in correct dispensation I believe this same Spirit can be manifested time and time again. I write this myself wondering where the ministry of the Holy Spirit is ministering these days and if the doors are opened for the Messianic church to once again step in.
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. - Acts 22
Paul worked the best when he ministered in the ministry where God would have him. In which Greece and Italy seemed the best fit....
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshiped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. - Acts 18
As far the ministry at Corinth it seems the Jews and the Gentiles were blessed alike. As one people. When we are in correct dispensation I believe this same Spirit can be manifested time and time again. I write this myself wondering where the ministry of the Holy Spirit is ministering these days and if the doors are opened for the Messianic church to once again step in.
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