The Five Fold Ministries Cannot Function In Our Current Factionalised Church

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 1:10

Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

This is the ideal which we should all aspire to; but the reality is that we are far short of it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't see anywhere in 1 Corinthians where any of the ones who preferred either Cephas, Apollos, or Christ as their mentors, actually left the church.

1 John 2 does not refer to those within a church who may prefer one Bible teacher over another, such as was happening in the Corinthian church. John's letter was in opposition to the Gnostic heresy that was invading the church at the time. There was another heresy invading the church - the Arian heresy. We can see both in the teaching of the Prosperity teachers. These heretics were, and still are, the antichrist that John was referring to. The ones who preferred their favourite Bible teacher in the Corinthian church were not heretics. We have seen posts by those on this forum who would rather accept the words of Christ over the teaching of Paul. They are not being antichrist heretics who are departing from the body of Christ. It is just that they put their priority on the teaching of Christ over Paul.

There are three rules concerning interpretation of Scripture.
1. Context
2. Context
3. Context.

The context of both 1 Corinthians and 1 John show totally different and separate issues in the church, and the one cannot be used to describe the other.

But friend you based your argument on the Corinthian Church and I am simply saying that the Church Split Paul referred to in 1 John did not affect his apostleship.

 

[Ligurian]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, (ποιμένας) pastors and teachers;
Matthew 23:1-10 [10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.* John 10:1-16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one (ποιμήν) shepherd.* poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd:--shepherd, pastor.
________________
* This is the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

True, and these are Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude. They are the only true apostles.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(Which James is this?)
--------------------------------
Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
wow... "apostles ... James the Lord's brother"... seriously?
Yup, that's what it says.
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Κυρίου.

Curiouser and curiouser... thanks so much for making me do the research.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (Jude)
--------------------------------

apostolos = a delegate:--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Matthew 10:1-7 [2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;[3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.[5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.*

And the only true prophets are the Old Testament ones who still speak to us through the pages of Scripture.

Aren't you forgetting Ιησους the prophet?

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.*KJV

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

You have not specified who exactly Christ was speaking to here. It seems that He was speaking to unconverted Jews, and not Christian believers, because there were none yet.

Kinda took it for granted that you knew the first verse, sorry 'bout that.
Ιησους Disciples were the very first followers of the Messiah.

Matthew 23:1-10 Then spake Ιησους to the multitude and to His Disciples,*

I don't know why you are using this verse to make your point, whatever that is. Jesus was referring to the future inclusion of the Gentiles into the kingdom of God. This was fulfilled in the falling of the Holy Spirit on the household of Cornelius and the subsequent appointment of Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.

These sheep are mentioned all through the Prophets.

The word translated "pastors" in Eph.4:11, is translated "shepherd" here:

John 1-16 [11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.[14] I am the good (ποιμήν) shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine.[15] As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep.[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one (ποιμήν) shepherd.*

poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.
___________________
* This is the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (10-lost-tribes of the divided kingdom of Solomon)

 

[sandman]

To date, the church in general hasn't recovered from it.

I agree

No self-appointed Apostle meets those criteria and therefore cannot be the foundational ministry that Paul is talking about in Ephesians.

Self appointed ...NO! on any of the 5. I have never seen any self appointed who stood the litmus test. But I have met, and do know those who undoubtedly possess one or more of the gift ministries ...including an apostle (as per my definition below). Not a single one ever proclaimed what they had ....but spend a little time with them and it's revealing.

Below is my list of the gift ministries. I think it's fairly accurate, certainly not exhaustive ...but it may be beneficial.


Gift Ministries definition

Apostle: One that goes out into the world – teaches God’s word, casts out devil spirits, raises the dead, establishes churches. Divinely appointed founders of the church….brings new light to a dark nation. Mat 10:1-10, Mar 3:14-19, Luk 6:13-16…Paul 1Co 15:6-8, a chosen vessel in Act 9:15

Prophets: One who speaks for God… be it forthtelling or foretelling a future event. (Any prophet be it fore or forth telling will never give a message that contradicts the written Word of God….if it’s from the true God)

Gen 20:7, Exo 6:28-30 & Exo 7:1 ↓

added side note:
Pharaoh was the top religious leader in the country and the priests spoke what he told them to speak. God had to set Moses and Arron up along the same lines so that he would understand why Arron was doing all the talking….showing that Moses was of a more prominent stature.

(Prophetess ↓)
Jdg 4:4, / Exo 15:20 shows that Moses had a sister…. Miriam was Aaron’s sister and Arron was Moses brother.

*Mat 2:17&18,→ Jer 31:15 / Act 2:16&17 → Joe 2:28.

In Eph 3:1-6 and Rom 16:25 and Col 1:27 Paul was forth telling..


Evangelist: Someone who brings new people to God by preaching the Word of God…someone who heralds the salvation through Christ but are not an Apostle. All believers are to do the work of an evangelist. but not all believers have been given the gift ministry of an evangelist… 2Ti 4:5…. To preach Gods word to the end… that people are added to the Church

Pastor: Someone who feeds or guides the church Jer 3:15&16 oversees the flock, 1Th 5:12….Directing others by example.

Teacher: … Exo 18:20 A teacher must instruct the students in the Word of God according to present day relevance Deu 4:5… Act 5:42 to discharge the office of a teacher to conduct oneself as a teacher and impart instruction to others. 1Co 4:17 to instruct Gods people in the ways of God. 2Ti 2:1&2

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But friend you based your argument on the Corinthian Church and I am simply saying that the Church Split Paul referred to in 1 John did not affect his apostleship.

I don't understand what you are saying about Paul referring to a church split in 1 John. When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the Gnostic and Arian heresies had not yet arisen in the church. When John wrote his first epistle, it was at least a decade later, perhaps two, when both heresies were rampant and dividing the whole church.

Paul was dealing with factions involving people following Peter, Apollos, and ignoring both and choosing to follow Christ. These factions did not cause a division in the churches in general. It was a particular issue in the Corinthian church alone. Paul's defence of his Apostleship was to the Corinthians, and then to the Galatians, for two separate reasons. The Judaisers who were influencing the Galatian churches were opposing Paul and his Apostleship. Those Corinthians who were following their own choice of Apostle were merely preferring one Apostle over another. The issue in the Corinthian church did not affect Paul's Apostleship in general at all.

But Paul had nothing to do with John's letter. When he wrote 1 Corinthians John had not written his letter yet, so how could Paul refer to something that John wrote that the latter had not even written yet?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(Which James is this?)
--------------------------------
Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
wow... "apostles ... James the Lord's brother"... seriously?
Yup, that's what it says.
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Κυρίου.

Curiouser and curiouser... thanks so much for making me do the research.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (Jude)
--------------------------------

apostolos = a delegate:--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Matthew 10:1-7 [2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;[3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.[5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.*



Aren't you forgetting Ιησους the prophet?

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.*KJV

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX



Kinda took it for granted that you knew the first verse, sorry 'bout that.
Ιησους Disciples were the very first followers of the Messiah.

Matthew 23:1-10 Then spake Ιησους to the multitude and to His Disciples,*



These sheep are mentioned all through the Prophets.

The word translated "pastors" in Eph.4:11, is translated "shepherd" here:

John 1-16 [11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.[14] I am the good (ποιμήν) shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine.[15] As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep.[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one (ποιμήν) shepherd.*

poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.
___________________
* This is the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (10-lost-tribes of the divided kingdom of Solomon)

What you are quoting merely shows that you know parts of the Bible that refer to Apostles and Prophets, and about Jesus. But your quotes have nothing to do with the OP, therefore off topic.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree


Self appointed ...NO! on any of the 5. I have never seen any self appointed who stood the litmus test. But I have met, and do know those who undoubtedly possess one or more of the gift ministries ...including an apostle (as per my definition below). Not a single one ever proclaimed what they had ....but spend a little time with them and it's revealing.

If someone is called an Apostle and he hasn't been an eye witness to the resurrection of Christ and personally appointed by Jesus then he is self appointed. Just because a group of men decide that one of their number is an Apostle, it does not prove that Jesus appointed that person.

Below is my list of the gift ministries. I think it's fairly accurate, certainly not exhaustive ...but it may be beneficial.

Gift Ministries definition

Apostle: One that goes out into the world – teaches God’s word, casts out devil spirits, raises the dead, establishes churches. Divinely appointed founders of the church….brings new light to a dark nation. Mat 10:1-10, Mar 3:14-19, Luk 6:13-16…Paul 1Co 15:6-8, a chosen vessel in Act 9:15

See my previous comment in this post.

Prophets

: One who speaks for God… be it forthtelling or foretelling a future event. (Any prophet be it fore or forth telling will never give a message that contradicts the written Word of God….if it’s from the true God)

Gen 20:7, Exo 6:28-30 & Exo 7:1 ↓

Read Jeremiah 23 and show that our modern prophets do not fit that profile.

added side note:

Pharaoh was the top religious leader in the country and the priests spoke what he told them to speak. God had to set Moses and Arron up along the same lines so that he would understand why Arron was doing all the talking….showing that Moses was of a more prominent stature.

(Prophetess ↓)
Jdg 4:4, / Exo 15:20 shows that Moses had a sister…. Miriam was Aaron’s sister and Arron was Moses brother.

*Mat 2:17&18,→ Jer 31:15 / Act 2:16&17 → Joe 2:28.

In Eph 3:1-6 and Rom 16:25 and Col 1:27 Paul was forth telling..

I don't see anywhere in Exodus where Pharoah is described as the top religious leader in Egypt. And no priests were mentioned either. Pharoah had his magicians. You seem to be making it up. No point in giving "proof texts" out of context. They don't prove anything.

Evangelist

:

Someone who brings new people to God by preaching the Word of God…someone who heralds the salvation through Christ but are not an Apostle. All believers are to do the work of an evangelist. but not all believers have been given the gift ministry of an evangelist… 2Ti 4:5…. To preach Gods word to the end… that people are added to the Church

Pastor: Someone who feeds or guides the church Jer 3:15&16 oversees the flock, 1Th 5:12….Directing others by example.

Teacher: … Exo 18:20 A teacher must instruct the students in the Word of God according to present day relevance Deu 4:5… Act 5:42 to discharge the office of a teacher to conduct oneself as a teacher and impart instruction to others. 1Co 4:17 to instruct Gods people in the ways of God. 2Ti 2:1&2

All you are doing here is to show that you know how the New Testament describes these three ministries. But in these days their ministries are limited to the men appointed by their own churches to those roles. They are not recognised across the whole church - only in their particular church denomination. Therefore modern Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers don't fit the criteria of body-wide five-fold ministries.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While I understand what you are saying …You are looking at the church as a denominational structure… It is not….. as noted in context.

The household of faith is not based upon…. It is built upon ….as noted in verse 20.

We, the saints are members …. not of a building or denomination. we are the church of the body of Christ, the holy naos …the called of God. Individually we are the tabernacle…as a group we are the body a building not made with hands ( 2Co 5:1)

So this means that you can go into any Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, or Charismatic church in your area and tell the pastor that you are an apostle, or prophet, evangelist, or teacher in the body of Christ and you want to have the freedom to express your ministry to the people? How far do you reckon you will get?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

.
I know of a few people that I think might have this gift. Ironically however, the people that are the best candidates won't tell you they are "Apostle so and so".

Is that true though? Paul and Peter had no problem identifying themselves as Apostles when writing their letters.

Now that may be because they were showing their authority for making the teachings they did in the letters, but still they had no issue saying "I'm Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles."

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Is that true though? Paul and Peter had no problem identifying themselves as Apostles when writing their letters.

Yeah I know but there is a real apples and oranges thing going on, maybe even apples and pineapples. The Apostles of the Lamb were literal apostles hand picked and tutored by Jesus himself. Saint Paul the apostle to the gentiles had quite a lot going on prior to his vision or theophany of Christ on the road to Damascus.

I can't say the same for much of these other folks, and mind you I base this kind of claim based on reading stuff on NAR, and listening to sermons from such folks a few years before C.Peter Wagner actually coined that term. I was in the actual "Prophetic Movement" in a major church that wrote the 1st big book on it, "The Gift of the Apostle" by David Cannistraci, I once had a signed copy of that by the author.


If you read all the preaching and teaching these are supposedly "governmental" gifts, "that will set order in the Church", as most preach and teach. Basically various kinds of what was called "Manifest sons" doctrine of the Later Rain movement. They basically are going to fix all the schisms in Christianity and bring order like the Apostle Paul did in his day.


The problem is from I can tell there is often a lot more hot air, more than power. Here is just one example if you follow teaching on gifts, supposedly one aspect of having a gift is being able to coach and mentor people in that gift. In my days, in the Apostolic Movement I got 10 to 100 times more knowledge and training on starting a new church from reading Rick Warren's, "The Purpose Driven Church" (the very 1st "Purpose Driven" book he wrote) than all the other stuff going on in the Apostolic Movement combined.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yeah I know but there is a real apples and oranges thing going on, maybe even apples and pineapples. The Apostles of the Lamb were literal apostles hand picked and tutored by Jesus himself. Saint Paul the apostle to the gentiles had quite a lot going on prior to his vision or theophany of Christ on the road to Damascus.

I can't say the same for much of these other folks, and mind you I base this kind of claim based on reading stuff on NAR, and listening to sermons from such folks a few years before C.Peter Wagner actually coined that term. I was in the actual "Prophetic Movement" in a major church that wrote the 1st big book on it, "The Gift of the Apostle" by David Cannistraci, I once had a signed copy of that by the author.


If you read all the preaching and teaching these are supposedly "governmental" gifts, "that will set order in the Church", as most preach and teach. Basically various kinds of what was called "Manifest sons" doctrine of the Later Rain movement. They basically are going to fix all the schisms in Christianity and bring order like the Apostle Paul did in his day.


The problem is from I can tell there is often a lot more hot air, more than power. Here is just one example if you follow teaching on gifts, supposedly one aspect of having a gift is being able to coach and mentor people in that gift. In my days, in the Apostolic Movement I got 10 to 100 times more knowledge and training on starting a new church from reading Rick Warren's, "The Purpose Driven Church" (the very 1st "Purpose Driven" book he wrote) than all the other stuff going on in the Apostolic Movement combined.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving validity to the NAR, I don't buy for a second that most if any of them are actual Apostles. Only that we shouldn't qualify an Apostle by saying "They won't identify themselves as such" because Paul and Peter sure did

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Only that we shouldn't qualify an Apostle by saying "They won't identify themselves as such" because Paul and Peter sure did

My statement was largely meant idiomatically than literally, but I also do mean it somewhat literally, just based on stuff like self promotion and what goes on in NAR vs. what actually went on in the early Church. In the early Church, the Church had to confirm your gift. Most of the time, you could not be an apostle by just getting some vision and being launched out into it. Saint Paul's case was a rare exception, and even then he took years after being called, before he went out preaching in gentile lands and writing epistles.


We don't see this that much today. Much more typical that someone gets the revelation and begins trying to sell the Church on why they are an apostle like some kind of modern motivational speaker building his practice. Which is night and day different than saint Paul.


Quite frankly, I believe many of these "apostles" assuming they are called are probably something more along the times of Evangelists or Shepherd/pastors, but in society we have our various kind of bandwagons and that also can be true in different corners of Christianity as well. And with that comes the fact that some things are intrinsically cooler than others, and the drive for some to want to go the apostle route rather than simply be a senior pastor or whatever.


PS - Even David Cannistraci the author of, "the Gift of the Apostle" had similar sentiments, once upon a time! At one time he said in one of his presentations answering Q&A at a 1996 Prophetic Conference: "a person should not be able to call themselves an apostle until after they founded x number of churches." And I think the number originally proposed was kind of large, actually"12 or so" making even saint Paul have trouble claiming to be an apostle.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't understand what you are saying about Paul referring to a church split in 1 John. When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the Gnostic and Arian heresies had not yet arisen in the church. When John wrote his first epistle, it was at least a decade later, perhaps two, when both heresies were rampant and dividing the whole church.

Paul was dealing with factions involving people following Peter, Apollos, and ignoring both and choosing to follow Christ. These factions did not cause a division in the churches in general. It was a particular issue in the Corinthian church alone. Paul's defence of his Apostleship was to the Corinthians, and then to the Galatians, for two separate reasons. The Judaisers who were influencing the Galatian churches were opposing Paul and his Apostleship. Those Corinthians who were following their own choice of Apostle were merely preferring one Apostle over another. The issue in the Corinthian church did not affect Paul's Apostleship in general at all.

But Paul had nothing to do with John's letter. When he wrote 1 Corinthians John had not written his letter yet, so how could Paul refer to something that John wrote that the latter had not even written yet?

Yes of course, I must have been half asleep...

I meant John - he refers to a church split - the point I am making is that splits and factions did not affect the apostleship of John, Peter or Paul.

For this reason it is hard to argue that apostles cant operate in a divided church.

However the apostles always had the faithful around them.

 

[Ligurian]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(Which James is this?)
--------------------------------
Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
wow... "apostles ... James the Lord's brother"... seriously?
Yup, that's what it says.
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Κυρίου.

Curiouser and curiouser... thanks so much for making me do the research.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (Jude)
--------------------------------

apostolos = a delegate:--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Matthew 10:1-7 [2] Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;[3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.[5] These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.*



Aren't you forgetting Ιησους the prophet?

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.*KJV

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX



Kinda took it for granted that you knew the first verse, sorry 'bout that.
Ιησους Disciples were the very first followers of the Messiah.

Matthew 23:1-10 Then spake Ιησους to the multitude and to His Disciples,*



These sheep are mentioned all through the Prophets.

The word translated "pastors" in Eph.4:11, is translated "shepherd" here:

John 1-16 [11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.[14] I am the good (ποιμήν) shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine.[15] As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep.[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one (ποιμήν) shepherd.*

poimen = of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.
___________________
* This is the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (10-lost-tribes of the divided kingdom of Solomon)

What you are quoting merely shows that you know parts of the Bible that refer to Apostles and Prophets, and about Jesus. But your quotes have nothing to do with the OP, therefore off topic.

I believe that what I've said has everything to do with first premise of the OP.

Because the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Circumcision doesn't teach what Paul's gospel of grace to the gentiles says.

One must first know who is who, in order to prove who's actually the chosen of Matthew and John and what they were really taught and therefore teaching.

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Jude 1:1 (Ἰούδας) Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and (Ἰούδας) Judas [the brother] of James.

So then... "James the Lord's brother", and "Judas the brother of James" makes Judas the Lord's brother, too. So they are definitely NOT the apostled-Disciples of Matthew 10:1-4. Because James the son of Alphaeus is never called the brother of Lebbaeus-Thaddaeus-Judas nor is he called the Lord's brother.
But THIS James and Judas are:

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James and Joses and Simon and (Ἰούδας) Judas? (John 7:3-5)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes of course, I must have been half asleep...

I meant John - he refers to a church split - the point I am making is that splits and factions did not affect the apostleship of John, Peter or Paul.

For this reason it is hard to argue that apostles cant operate in a divided church.

However the apostles always had the faithful around them.

As a matter of interest, I would view Billy Graham as an evangelist, part of the five-fold ministries, because his ministry was accepted across the whole spectrum of churches, including the RCC.

I would see also Charles Spurgeon as a pastor and teacher in the same way, because his ministry is accepted across the spectrum of evangelical churches.

But the many "official" prophets we see on Youtube, are not part of the five-fold ministries, because all of their prophetic words have been proved false, and therefore would fit in what Yahweh said about false prophets in Jeremiah 23.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As a matter of interest, I would view Billy Graham as an evangelist, part of the five-fold ministries, because his ministry was accepted across the whole spectrum of churches, including the RCC.

I would see also Charles Spurgeon as a pastor and teacher in the same way, because his ministry is accepted across the spectrum of evangelical churches.

But the many "official" prophets we see on Youtube, are not part of the five-fold ministries, because all of their prophetic words have been proved false, and therefore would fit in what Yahweh said about false prophets in Jeremiah 23.

How about Derek Prince?

 

[Bobber]

Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

I think an Apostle is on who is called by God to establish certain works. Wouldn't really matter if all the church world recognized one's calling or ministry. Even with Paul the Apostle it took some time before many would accept him. Even if they didn't he would have carried on in doing what God called him to do as one should obey God and not men. Still wouldn't have made him not an Apostle of a certain type which means an establisher of a work.

 

[Bobber]

. But the Corinthian church itself did not separate from the body of Christ and become its own separate denomination.

I think you need to consider though. You had the Apostles all still living so they waited on their words as being authoritative. When instructions , sound teaching or reproofs or rebukes came down from them it was understood this applied universally to all who name the name of Christ.

 

[Bobber]

But someone from the New Apostolic Restoration movement labelling himself as an apostle to the body of Christ, is in error, because he is not being a true Apostle of Christ, not having the criteria that qualifies a person to be an apostle. But we have the true apostolic ministry in the pages of the New Testament.

And what exactly is that in your opinion?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And what exactly is that in your opinion?

We benefit from the Apostolic ministry of Paul when we read and study his letters. When we read them we are reading the words of a true Apostle of Christ.