Suicide

[nightflight]

Suicide is better than being in pain or homeless. That's why so many people do it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are huge, huge benefits to suffering you only see
later.

That strikes me as a saying from someone who hasn't faced any extraordinary hardships.

 

[mmksparbud]

That strikes me as a saying from someone who hasn't faced any extraordinary hardships.

Really?? How would you know? Having had my share of them and suicidal 4 times-----my first at around 17--I happen to agree with that statement. I am now 65 and have learned to cope with hardships much better and have lived to understand the truth of that statement for I had much to learn and the benefits have been grand.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Really?? How would you know? Having had my share of them and suicidal 4 times-----my first at around 17--I happen to agree with that statement. I am now 65 and have learned to cope with hardships much better and have lived to understand the truth of that statement for I had much to learn and the benefits have been grand.

Because I've seen how a very difficult hardship can break someone...hammer them to the point of quitting. Where they decide that the end is preferable to another day.


Not all hardships end. Some can become the defining aspect of a life.

I understand that can be a hard thing to grasp though. What do you think was your worst hardship?

 

[mmksparbud]

My present marriage to an alcoholic!!! Without my history, would not have been able to cope. Gone through sexual abuse from the age of 5,- 4 abortions, 3 by my father the 1st at age 12, the breakup of my first marriage and having to start all over, homelessness, literally no money coming in, beloved pets dyeing (all pet owners go through that)---death of family and friends (again, everyone goes through that)--but 25 years with an alcoholic is pretty tuff!!

 

[Hikarifuru]

Only people can be ethical. Assuming that death is the end of the person, if you desire to be ethical you must never kill yourself.

Is this valid or a fallacy (e.g. equivocation on "ethical")?

fallacy,

It's like saying that only living breathing people are alive, and if I intend to rightly say I am alive I cannot choose to ever stop being alive. Choosing to stop being alive doesn't change that I am in fact alive.

But this question separates the concept of morality from the feelings and well being of humans. If you have ever suffered and considered suicide to end your pain and sorrow then you know fully well that suicide can be desirable so yes it can be considered good, that's what good is anyway. I would never say suicide is simply immoral, people deserve to be free from the indescribable pain that drives people to that and it's not cowardly. Killing yourself to stop your pain requires great resolve and bravery in my opinion.

 

[mmksparbud]

fallacy,

It's like saying that only living breathing people are alive, and if I intend to rightly say I am alive I cannot choose to ever stop being alive. Choosing to stop being alive doesn't change that I am in fact alive.

But this question separates the concept of morality from the feelings and well being of humans. If you have ever suffered and considered suicide to end your pain and sorrow then you know fully well that suicide can be desirable so yes it can be considered good, that's what good is anyway. I would never say suicide is simply immoral, people deserve to be free from the indescribable pain that drives people to that and it's not cowardly. Killing yourself to stop your pain requires great resolve and bravery in my opinion.

It takes a lot more guts to look your pain in the face, endure, get through it and come out the other side.

 

[Hikarifuru]

It takes a lot more guts to look your pain in the face, endure, get through it and come out the other side.

That's what some people say and I think most of those people have never wanted to do it. I think it takes a vast amount of bravery to let go of your life and your well being and your hope and all your possibilities and end your life.

There is nothing brave about suffering endlessly with no way out. Accepting a life without peace and with endless misery is not bravery and is not brave for you to tell someone whos struggles you do not know to accept that pain and keep enduring it, especially not just because you don't want to be sad without them and you refuse them the right to ever end their pain because losing them would make you cry.

 

[mmksparbud]

I've been suicidal 4 times, --yes, I know. I've been in extreme physical pain for over 24 years from fibro, degenerative disc disease, diabetic neuropathy---I was in such pain I was crying every single day and wanted nothing else but death. Then God send someone who paid for me to go on Medical Marijuana, what a relief. I was on it or over 1 1/2 years, not pain free, but tolerable. But had to come off it bout 4 mths ago---just can't afford it. I've had to cope with increased pain again, though it is not as bad as it had been.

 

[Hikarifuru]

I've been suicidal 4 times, --yes, I know. I've been in extreme physical pain for over 24 years from fibro, degenerative disc disease, diabetic neuropathy---I was in such pain I was crying every single day and wanted nothing else but death. Then God send someone who paid for me to go on Medical Marijuana, what a relief. I was on it or over 1 1/2 years, not pain free, but tolerable. But had to come off it bout 4 mths ago---just can't afford it. I've had to cope with increased pain again, though it is not as bad as it had been.

So... ? That in no way makes people who do not want what you want into cowards or less brave than you. I think its bravery to say no I will not accept a life like this any more, I am going to stop this pain once and for all. You said you wanted nothing but to die, it is erroneous for you to say that bravery is somehow lacking here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

My present marriage to an alcoholic!!! Without my history, would not have been able to cope. Gone through sexual abuse from the age of 5,- 4 abortions, 3 by my father the 1st at age 12, the breakup of my first marriage and having to start all over, homelessness, literally no money coming in, beloved pets dyeing (all pet owners go through that)---death of family and friends (again, everyone goes through that)--but 25 years with an alcoholic is pretty tuff!!

It sounds rather tough. I dated an alcoholic for five years, and it took me two to realize she was an alcoholic because of how young we were. I understand what you're saying...

I'm also not trying to downplay anything you've been through...particularly the sexual abuse. I know that often that leaves emotional scars which have repercussions for life...other times not. I wouldn't wish it on anyone...yet it's still not quite the kind of hardship I'm talking about.

I had a friend go completely insane in his early twenties. I'm not talking about emotional issues...but a completely distorted perception of reality full of delusions and paranoia. I'm not going to talk about this particular type of mental disorder, out of respect for anyone on C.F. who might be suffering from it...but I will say his problems became increasingly severe while at college and culminated with his parents coming to haul him away while he got ejected from the school for life.

He got treatment, and while the treatment helped...it couldn't "fix" the problem. He still suffered delusions and paranoia daily...it's just that it wasn't as severe and he could for the most part recognize them as delusions (though not always). He was a very happy go-lucky, friendly, well liked person. This condition stripped him of all friends...and severely damaged all future relationships and prospects. I remember seeing him in public once about 8-9months before he killed himself...he wasn't the same. You could tell he was experiencing things that weren't happening...and trying to hide it. He had also become quite depressed because of the state of his condition...and reasonably so. It's not hard to understand why he didn't see much of a future for himself and decided to end it when faced with the constant daily realization of "what could have been."

That's really just one example. Another would be something known as The Suicide Disease.

http://www.medfaxxinc.com/index.php...e-trigeminal-neuralgia-or-tic-douloureux.html

This isn't a condition that causes a person to kill themselves. No, instead it causes such immense and daily pain that it literally takes everything from you. It's hard to describe what this condition does to someone...what's the worst pain you can think of? Being stabbed? Being shot? Electrical shock or child birth? Even in those situations, there's some comfort to be had in the knowledge that the pain won't last. Imagine then, for a moment, if that pain was either present all the time every day...or frequently and unexpectedly many many times throughout the day...every day. It becomes hard to concentrate on things, hard to be happy, optimistic, loving, caring. Instead, the entire focus of your life becomes this pain, which no one seems to have any solutions for and even the strongest painkillers only dull. This doesn't happen all at once....but the longer one deals with it...the more it becomes their life. What their life once was fades into the background and possibly even disappears entirely. Work of any kind, school, even caring for children quickly becomes almost impossible as the pain demands your entire focus. Are you starting to get the picture? It takes whatever your life was and replaces it with moments of agonizing pain and waiting for agonizing pain.

The people who decide to kill themselves aren't weak in some way...they aren't mentally disturbed...they simply see no reason to continue. Most people can't imagine that kind of situation...but it's called The Suicide Disease because that's the conclusion that many many people reach.

So as I said, sometimes a hardship can become the defining aspect of a life. Sometimes there simply is no silver lining and a person is laid low by their condition. Sometimes, suicide can become an entirely reasonable and well thought out choice.

 

[mmksparbud]

It sounds rather tough. I dated an alcoholic for five years, and it took me two to realize she was an alcoholic because of how young we were. I understand what you're saying...

I'm also not trying to downplay anything you've been through...particularly the sexual abuse. I know that often that leaves emotional scars which have repercussions for life...other times not. I wouldn't wish it on anyone...yet it's still not quite the kind of hardship I'm talking about.

I had a friend go completely insane in his early twenties. I'm not talking about emotional issues...but a completely distorted perception of reality full of delusions and paranoia. I'm not going to talk about this particular type of mental disorder, out of respect for anyone on C.F. who might be suffering from it...but I will say his problems became increasingly severe while at college and culminated with his parents coming to haul him away while he got ejected from the school for life.

He got treatment, and while the treatment helped...it couldn't "fix" the problem. He still suffered delusions and paranoia daily...it's just that it wasn't as severe and he could for the most part recognize them as delusions (though not always). He was a very happy go-lucky, friendly, well liked person. This condition stripped him of all friends...and severely damaged all future relationships and prospects. I remember seeing him in public once about 8-9months before he killed himself...he wasn't the same. You could tell he was experiencing things that weren't happening...and trying to hide it. He had also become quite depressed because of the state of his condition...and reasonably so. It's not hard to understand why he didn't see much of a future for himself and decided to end it when faced with the constant daily realization of "what could have been."

That's really just one example. Another would be something known as The Suicide Disease.

http://www.medfaxxinc.com/index.php...e-trigeminal-neuralgia-or-tic-douloureux.html

This isn't a condition that causes a person to kill themselves. No, instead it causes such immense and daily pain that it literally takes everything from you. It's hard to describe what this condition does to someone...what's the worst pain you can think of? Being stabbed? Being shot? Electrical shock or child birth? Even in those situations, there's some comfort to be had in the knowledge that the pain won't last. Imagine then, for a moment, if that pain was either present all the time every day...or frequently and unexpectedly many many times throughout the day...every day. It becomes hard to concentrate on things, hard to be happy, optimistic, loving, caring. Instead, the entire focus of your life becomes this pain, which no one seems to have any solutions for and even the strongest painkillers only dull. This doesn't happen all at once....but the longer one deals with it...the more it becomes their life. What their life once was fades into the background and possibly even disappears entirely. Work of any kind, school, even caring for children quickly becomes almost impossible as the pain demands your entire focus. Are you starting to get the picture? It takes whatever your life was and replaces it with moments of agonizing pain and waiting for agonizing pain.

The people who decide to kill themselves aren't weak in some way...they aren't mentally disturbed...they simply see no reason to continue. Most people can't imagine that kind of situation...but it's called The Suicide Disease because that's the conclusion that many many people reach.

So as I said, sometimes a hardship can become the defining aspect of a life. Sometimes there simply is no silver lining and a person is laid low by their condition. Sometimes, suicide can become an entirely reasonable and well thought out choice.

Yes, I forgot to mention the pain I've been in for over 24 years!!!! Fibro, degenerative disc disease, diabetic neuropathy---it is pain 24/7. I know, it robs you of the joy of life. It is exhausting and most people can not comprehend it. Our brains retain pain. I had testing for my neuropathy which was basically a cattle prod delivering an electric shock! Because of my fibro, it was horrible. Some people who have the test feel nothing much, I had it years ago and felt not much. This time it was awful. And it stayed. For 3 months I was electrocuted 25-35 times a day!! It gradually lessened, it's a few times a day now, along with many other pains. It amazes me how many different types of pain there are! I also have very bad cramps, and some pains that are like someone taking a pair of pliers and grabbing a hunk of flesh and clamping down and twisting, there are the needles---tiny ones to someone pounding nails into me, ---burning---so intense it feels like I could light someone's cigarettes with the tip of my finger (that is where that one pain hits, just the tip of a finger, (I have to dunk it in ice water), there is the burning of my legs, and they literally feel like they are on fire, I have gel packs in the freezer that I have to strap on to get relief, I also have a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol to cool them down with, then there is the itch---it will hit my thumb, the palm of my hand, sooooo intense it feels like I will loose my mind. I was boiling water for pasta when it hit once and I had an overwhelming desire to stick my finger into the water to relieve the pain!!---I didn't do it. I no longer will do mammograms, the last time I had one my boobs hurt for 2-3 weeks. I will have no procedures done that involve pain. I do not need my brain to remember any more pain! They wanted to do a vaginal biopsy when I had an allergic reaction to toilet paper and had to go to gynecologist, I declined---that is one area that I do not have pain in and there are women with fibro that have it there very badly. There is the numbness in my feet and legs that hurt---that something can be numb yet hurt is something I do not understand! Sometimes it feels like even my hair hurts!! Then there is the general, overall muscle aches, or when my groin will feel like a pulled groin muscles though I have not pulled it. I will not be able to walk sometimes for weeks. I'm in a wheel chair anyways for my back, but can walk short distances. I had to carry around this long scarf that I wrapped that leg in and I could pull the leg up when I needed to, it hurt like crazy whenever I tried to lift it. Along with the pain fibro hits the brain, very forgetful, once typed 90 words a minute, I now type dyslexic and can't type 4 words without mistakes. Sometimes we can't get a word out, even though it may be simple, like apple, we know the word but it won't come out-have to describe it, or point to it ,my husband has gotten very good at filling in the blanks! I had to finely quite my job as a dialysis tech in the hospitals, have dialyzed even in neonatal but got to where I just could not do it anymore, besides the pain, the worse thing was my brain, I was forgetting stuff, making me dangerous and I finally had to tell my bosses. I've been on disability for over 5 years now--it was hard to give up my job of 20 years--it ended up costing me very penny I had saved up. Sleep is very difficult, a couple hours here and there, and sometimes even in my sleep, I can't get away from the pain for I will dream that I am in pain! They did scans on fibro brains in sleep---even when we are asleep, our brains do not sleep like normal people's brains do, ours keep on going, which is one reason they figure we are always so exhausted no matter how much sleep we get. Being on here helps keep my brain active and my fingers moving, thank God for spell check!! Oh yes, there were times I prayed that God would just take me. As a Christian I no longer feel I can actually kill myself as that means I think my suffering is greater than the power of God and I won't go there. I CHOOSE to believe that God is beside me and will help me to cope with all this. He gave me the MMJ to help me, now that I am not on it anymore, I have found other things that help the pain come down, like cutting my Lisinopril in half, it was causing the pins and needles to be worse, I had to go back up on my Tramadol. I just try to enjoy what I can.

 

[SkyWriting]

That strikes me as a saying from someone who hasn't faced any extraordinary hardships.

I can't fix your lack of perception.

 

[mmksparbud]

So... ? That in no way makes people who do not want what you want into cowards or less brave than you. I think its bravery to say no I will not accept a life like this any more, I am going to stop this pain once and for all. You said you wanted nothing but to die, it is erroneous for you to say that bravery is somehow lacking here.

Than me?? No---I do not hold myself as someone who has all the answers and my way is the only way. It is a personal choice between God and the individual. However, what gives you the right to say they have to choose to take their life because you think there is no God and therefore they have no hope---that is you that has no hope! Someone who believes in God has a hope! We use His strength to help us through these things. You choose to think there is no God, that is your choice. But we believe there is a different way. We do not have to depend only on how we feel, we have faith that God is there to give us the strength to carry through. We may not know why we must go through this, but that is what life has given us and we can do it. There are times we may loose hold of that faith, but we can get it back. It is not our own bravery we depend on but His.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Than me?? No---I do not hold myself as someone who has all the answers and my way is the only way. It is a personal choice between God and the individual. However, what gives you the right to say they have to choose to take their life because you think there is no God and therefore they have no hope---that is you that has no hope! Someone who believes in God has a hope! We use His strength to help us through these things. You choose to think there is no God, that is your choice. But we believe there is a different way. We do not have to depend only on how we feel, we have faith that God is there to give us the strength to carry through. We may not know why we must go through this, but that is what life has given us and we can do it. There are times we may loose hold of that faith, but we can get it back. It is not our own bravery we depend on but His.

Considering your story.... I do not think your god is a source of hope for anyone but you. He did not protect you from the things you need to recover from. He let you become the miserable individual who needs him to now somehow make your life livable and he clearly hasn't fixed your broken life. The best he did was get a human give you some money. Gee that sounds suspect.

I do not choose to not believe, that's not how belief works. I can't believe in god and I know of no god worth believing in anyway.

 

[mmksparbud]

Considering your story.... I do not think your god is a source of hope for anyone but you. He did not protect you from the things you need to recover from. He let you become the miserable individual who needs him to now somehow make your life livable and he clearly hasn't fixed your broken life. The best he did was get a human give you some money. Gee that sounds suspect.

I do not choose to not believe, that's not how belief works. I can't believe in god and I know of no god worth believing in anyway.

He never said nothing bad would happen to us, just that He would always be with you!! He has always mended my broken life---I've always said, God has managed to make a beautiful Mosaic out of the broken pieces of my life! That is your way to live your life, without God or hope. I believe otherwise and do not force my believes on others, nor do I wish to deprive anyone of their hope in something better. How miserable it would be to have no hope, no faith, no God. Just this miserable world and if things get bad, you have no choice but to end your life.

 

[Hikarifuru]

He never said nothing bad would happen to us, just that He would always be with you!! He has always mended my broken life---I've always said, God has managed to make a beautiful Mosaic out of the broken pieces of my life! That is your way to live your life, without God or hope. I believe otherwise and do not force my believes on others, nor do I wish to deprive anyone of their hope in something better. How miserable it would be to have no hope, no faith, no God. Just this miserable world and if things get bad, you have no choice but to end your life.

I'm a father, I have two little girls I do not want hear that god "never said nothing bad would happen to us" as a father would do anything to protect my family and you have no idea why he watched as your entire life was shattered and all you've ever known was misery and pain. No he has not mended your broken life, you've told us all about it, you've told us how you've wished you could die for years on end. I do not want to hear how he was with you while you were being raped, the 1st time... the 2nd time... the 3rd time, for years and years.

Your life is so miserable that you need a god to exist so you that can hope in him. I think I understand but no this god is not a hope for other people. I'm not depriving anyone of anything either. I'm not just expecting them to endure it and I won't call them cowards.

 

[Hikarifuru]

If was god was with you in the room when you were raped and he merely reminded you that he never promised you an easy life but promised to be with you.... then that's not very good.

 

[Hikarifuru]

He never said nothing bad would happen to us, just that He would always be with you!! He has always mended my broken life---I've always said, God has managed to make a beautiful Mosaic out of the broken pieces of my life! That is your way to live your life, without God or hope. I believe otherwise and do not force my believes on others, nor do I wish to deprive anyone of their hope in something better. How miserable it would be to have no hope, no faith, no God. Just this miserable world and if things get bad, you have no choice but to end your life.

I really do wish I could have helped you and somehow do something for you, my history of trauma isn't nearly as bad as your own. I do not mean to sound uncaring toward you, but my anger at the sort of abuse you have mentioned is why I find your hope to be so unreasonable. You think he is a hope when he was not a hope at preventing the very worst things from happening to begin with. If he will not prevent rape, what exactly do you hope for him to do?

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm a father, I have two little girls I do not want hear that god "never said nothing bad would happen to us" as a father would do anything to protect my family and you have no idea why he watched as your entire life was shattered and all you've ever known was misery and pain. No he has not mended your broken life, you've told us all about it, you've told us how you've wished you could die for years on end. I do not want to hear how he was with you while you were being raped, the 1st time... the 2nd time... the 3rd time, for years and years.

Your life is so miserable that you need a god to exist so you that can hope in him. I think I understand but no this god is not a hope for other people. I'm not depriving anyone of anything either. I'm not just expecting them to endure it and I won't call them cowards.

How very sad for you. I use my past to help those around me, I look at my past and see how God guided me through it.
This is the world we live in. You can live it as you do, without any God or hope in this world nor anything to look forward after death or see the God that is there through everything we suffer and leads and guides us to a better life in this world and an even greater, grander life in the next. I have described my pains, because that is what was asked---I was also the beneficiary of many benefits---I needed a way to support myself and get out of the house as quickly as possible and could not stomach the thought of living at home in order to go to college and was led to being a Respiratory therapist where I could earn my way and use by brains, I was led out of being under my fathers thumb into a state as far from where he lived as I could get and there met my first husband who was a very good, kind, gentle man, but I was not allowing God in my life and I had no God then to turn to and was emotionally scarred but did not think I was and I thought I was actually pretty good and tuff and proceeded to drive my husband away with my unresolved anger and need to be right and not have any man over me, that marriage ended--but afterwards I went back to God and was gradually led to a much better life, and eventually to a much better job, but I did fall and revert to old habits and married a man who was not Christian and an alcoholic which I did not realize the extent of---however, God did not forsake me and I've learned many lessons that needed to be learned through this and in the process my husband, though not yet of any faith, is now a Christian and is much, much better than he was during the first years of our life. I also had to learn to forgive my father, the process of which ended up with me having over $400,000.00 with which I have bought a beautiful home I never thought I would have, 2 brand new cars and helped me through my becoming disabled without ending up homeless. The troubles I had with my husband were of my own making as I married outside the faith contrary to what I should have done so I can not whine about the troubles the man caused me--but still God has given me much more than I ever expected. We are both disabled, but through that, we have learned to love and respect each other and lean on each other and help each other. He learned much more about love through dogs and cats that were brought into our lives which he had never known and learned how to handle their loss without becoming a total drunk again. Because of our disabilities the house fell into disrepair which was a source of great sadness in me and it looked awful, so what happened----the 50 gallon water heater broke and flooded the house-which sounds horrible, and it was, however, insurance paid to have us stay in a suite with maid service for over 3 months while the house was basically almost gutted and some of the walls and the flooring were replaced and everything was painted and when we moved back in, which was all done by others, the house was prettier than when we bought it! It was a blessing all around. The insurance company dropped us which I thought was terrible, but it forced us to look around and we ended up with more coverage for $500.00 a year less. All in all----I have more than I expected with a house packed to overflowing with a bunch of stuff that will take me to the end of my days to use up including 5 sewing machines and a roomful of material (6 actually, but 1 is nonfunctional)and 4 TV sets and one very good computer and an excellent phone system with 5 phones and one remaining very wonderful dog.--I will never need to buy clothes!! I am quite content to hold on to my God. Now, if only I could get my husband to clean out the garage!!! When things get bad, I will need to have a garage sale which should carry us through to the end of our days!!