"Struggling with sexuality" -- pre-judged?

[brightmorningstar]

To Olliefranz,

An interrogation which includes torture, humiliation and rape is hardly social, but if that's what you have to tell yourself to look yourself in the mirror when you claim that rape is simply sex, then fine

If you say so nbut I am referringto what the Bible says not what you are thinking.

I issue you a challenge. There are 947 verses that use the word "yada

Done that., knowing someone isnt wicked, men having sex with men is.

The mob was out for blood

They were out for ice cream. Nope they dont mention ice cream or blood they wanted sex with the men.

I never claimed that Jonathan and David would know Matthew. But I disagree with your interpretation of the Genesis verse, and pointed out that your interpretation is based on deliberately misunderstanding Jesus' point when He quoted it in Matthew 19. As I have already explained.

Then you are badly wrong and mistaken. Jesus affirms Genesis 2 that God's purpose in creation is man and woman so no chance of man and man.

Still, nowhere does it indicate that this is the only possible arrangement.

Of course it does if thats God's creation purpose thats what it is.

To the contrary, Jesus mentions three kinds of people for whom this arrangement is not proper: the three types of "eunuchs," including gay men.

Gay men are castrated or infertile? what planet are you on?

 

[FindingaWay]

I was going to answer the OP... but there seems little point, since the thread has turned into the same argument as every thread here, irrespective of the stated title..

It would be nice to have a discussion here rather than rehash the same time after time.

 

[KCKID]

I was going to answer the OP... but there seems little point, since the thread has turned into the same argument as every thread here, irrespective of the stated title..

It would be nice to have a discussion here rather than rehash the same time after time.

Why not answer the OP anyway? Turn the 'same old argument' around ...if only for a little while.

 

[KCKID]

Here, I'll even bump up the OP for you so that we can start off from scratch with, hopefully, some 'new' thoughts.

In the "Struggling with Sexuality" threads, there are several people who post to say that they are deeply troubled because they have homosexual feelings. In these threads, it seems there is always a warning from the moderators saying that posters are not permitted to endorse homosexuality, or to indicate acceptance of it. I find this rather horrifying. There are several churches that do not take the line that homosexuality is a sin -- why is it not permitted to suggest to those who are troubled that they look at these churches as a possible way of coming to terms with themselves? Aren't the moderators trying to impose their interpretation of the Bible on other people in these instances? And a glance at these threads will show that there is by no means unanimity on the question of homosexuality.

 

[KCKID]

In the "Struggling with Sexuality" threads, there are several people who post to say that they are deeply troubled because they have homosexual feelings. In these threads, it seems there is always a warning from the moderators saying that posters are not permitted to endorse homosexuality, or to indicate acceptance of it. I find this rather horrifying.

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, Andreusz. While I don't have such issues myself I have known two or three people just like yourself who have 'struggled' with homosexuality for a long time. One of these people is a good, good friend of mine who had been a Christian all of his life. He is still a young man of 27 but he came into my life when he was just 19 years-old. He was then a med student. While much younger than I am he was someone that I looked up to as a Christian/Bible mentor. I often felt something almost 'angelic' about him although he didn't approve of that when I just so happened to tell him one time. He was so devoted to the word of God and his life-style generally reflected that of a sincere practicing Christian. He was active in the church and played a major role in regard to Christian youth programs, preaching from the pulpit, leading out in worship, etc. etc. The church was his life. Everyone who knew him would say the same thing of him ..."What a lovely Christian guy."

Unfortunately, my friend had been harboring a deep, dark secret for a long time. It was a secret that he hadn't been able to share with anyone. He was/is 'gay'! He eventually found the courage to confide in me. Not that he needed 'courage' as such because he knew one or two things about my own past that I'd shared with him earlier in our relationship. So, he knew that he wasn't exactly talking to a 'saint'. I loved him as a friend before he told me that he was/is 'gay'. I loved him as a friend after he told me he was/is 'gay' ...probably even more so. I empathized with his struggle and my heart went out to him.

My friend is now a practicing doctor in a hospital many miles away from where I live. We still keep in touch quite regularly by telephone/email. Once he left this area almost two years ago he was able to make a fresh start and live a life BEING HIMSELF without any pretext ...without feeling the need to live up to the expectations of others. While I don't need to discuss his personal life I will say that Christianity for him is now out of the question. He considers himself an agnostic. He, like me, believes that much of the Old Testament is a combination of myths and truths and that no one can accurately determine their veracity one way or the other. It requires that one apply their OWN beliefs and superstitions and attitudes to presumably make the pieces fit. It also requires the accepting of traditional thought/teaching so that a belief becomes SO ingrained within that it becomes 'the only way' beyond any question. So, in the end, the belief that "I" hold is the CORRECT belief. The belief that 'YOU' hold, if it differs from mine, is the INCORRECT belief. We see evidence of this dynamic all the time on this forum/subforum. It becomes a battle of beliefs - even a battle of wits - and it can only result in futility.

My friend is 'gay'. Case closed. He is NOT influenced by a demonic spirit and I will defend him from such claims as long as I still have breath in my lungs. I DO hope that he returns to the message of Jesus which is NOT one of condemnation. Unfortunately, however, his being 'gay' is not now the main issue. The main issue for him now is Christianity itself.

There are several churches that do not take the line that homosexuality is a sin -- why is it not permitted to suggest to those who are troubled that they look at these churches as a possible way of coming to terms with themselves? Aren't the moderators trying to impose their interpretation of the Bible on other people in these instances? And a glance at these threads will show that there is by no means unanimity on the question of homosexuality.

It goes back to what I mentioned previously. WHAT IS one's belief and WHERE did they acquire that belief in the first place? The truth of the matter IS that one's belief did NOT generally originate from the scriptures but from the mind-set of another that in turn became the mind-set of the 'one'. True. And, once a belief becomes ingrained within the individual the scriptures will SURELY appear to support that belief. This is why the discussion of subjects such as this one are so futile. Dislodging an ingrained belief - whether right or wrong - is like trying to dislodge a mountain. Even QUESTIONING an ingrained belief - whether right or wrong - amounts to the same thing. People bristle when questioned and may very well dig in their heels even more. This is not a topic on the right or the wrongs of homosexuality or as to what the Bible may or may not have to say about the issue. It's a topic about the psychology of human beings, the way they think, how irrational they can be, and how the beliefs of another can influence them into believing almost anything.

 

[FindingaWay]

Thank you for sharing that, KCKID. What a tragic story. I do hope and pray that your friend comes to realise that God loves him unconditionally and enormously.... it is so sad that this one 'sin' can make people feel that they can't have a relationship with god.

As to the OP... the struggles with sexuality area is in recovery..... so generally those who post there are looking to change... I don't think that 'recover' is necessarily the right word.. one's sexual orientation is not a disease.. but it can be a big problem.

I am torn here... I do believe that, for me at least, it is wrong to give in to my homosexual feelings.... not necessarily because they are homosexual, but because I am married, and any relationship outside of that is wrong... I have almost wrecked my marriage through unfaithfulness once, and I can't go there again.
But, had I not been programmed with the conservative party line when I first became a Christian, maybe I would have found a way to reconcile my faith and my nature.... I don't know. I do know that God doesn't seem to want to change me, and promises i made in faith that He would do so have turned my life into a nightmare from which there is no escape that I can reconcile with my conscience....

The struggles with sexuality forum does help to some extent.. the support and prayers of those who can understand where I am coming from mean a lot.

 

[Andreusz]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, Andreusz. While I don't have such issues myself I have known two or three people just like yourself who have 'struggled' with homosexuality for a long time.

That's sweet of you KCKID, but I'm not strugling with homosexuality. I don't think I ever struggled with being homosexual... just with living in a very homophobic society. I wouldn't change to straight if you made me emperor of the world ... among other things, I'd lose my lover, who means an enormous amount to me.

No, my reason for the OP was concern for the people posting in those threads. I felt, and still feel, that it is terrible that they can't be told that there are other, _Christian_ ways of looking at their situation, and that not all Christians condemn homosexuality. (Yes, yes, BMS, I know that in your eyes that makes them not Christians, blah blah, but maybe, just maybe, their way of viewing the Bible is as good as yours.)

 

[Apollo Celestio]

It is to help them with their problems, not argue whether it is a problem or not. There are plenty of gay communities out there who wish to help those of their own kind whose struggles are not biblically or Christian -based. I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, given many people believe it to be sin. This is a Christian forum, don't like it? Move on, I suppose. They even have an asexual community here on the web, good place to visit when I get all angsty about it.

 

[Andreusz]

If people are struggling with what they imagine to be a problem, and there are good reasons for claiming that it is not a problem, then isn't it a moral duty to point these out?

 

[*Starlight*]

I totally agree with Andreusz... it's sad to see people thinking that they need to give up on love in their lives or try to change their sexual orientation (which is impossible), because they believe God wants them to do that...and it's even against the rules to tell them that they don't need to choose between these two things, but simply accept that they are homosexual, and have a loving relationship with someone of the same sex as them...

 

[Andreusz]

I totally agree with Andreusz... it's sad to see people thinking that they need to give up on love in their lives or try to change their sexual orientation (which is impossible), because they believe God wants them to do that...and it's even against the rules to tell them that they don't need to choose between these two things, but simply accept that they are homosexual, and have a loving relationship with someone of the same sex as them...

Thanks, *Starlight* ... you have said very clarly what I've been trying rather clumsily to say.

Elen sila lumenn' umentielvo (to quote a great Catholic writer.)

 

[*Starlight*]

Thanks, *Starlight* ... you have said very clarly what I've been trying rather clumsily to say.

Elen sila lumenn' umentielvo (to quote a great Catholic writer.)

You're welcome And I like that quote, Tolkien was great!

 

[Apollo Celestio]

If people are struggling with what they imagine to be a problem, and there are good reasons for claiming that it is not a problem, then isn't it a moral duty to point these out?

Not if they believe the bible. The morality is different.

 

[Andreusz]

Not if they believe the bible. The morality is different.

But other people who believe the bible interpret it differently. Why can't this be pointed out?

 

[Bamboo_Chicken]

But other people who believe the bible interpret it differently. Why can't this be pointed out?

It can be...but there comes a point on both sides where the help is no longer wanted. I would understand if some homosexuals were offended when Christians pointed out their interpretation of the Bible ("You're living in sin and will be condemned to hell if you don't repent" usually seems to equate to "you're evil"). Sure, you can point it out...but I'd imagine if you pushed the point or wanted to debate them on it they wouldn't be so receiving, nor would your point be considered overly helpful.

By the same token, somebody who is homosexual and believes that it is a sin is probably more than happy to hear that you don't think there's anything wrong with it...but your beliefs are not theirs and the point becomes unhelpful if they wish to change and you're stuck on "there's nothing wrong with you, you don't need to change".

I guess the question comes down to what you believe moral duty is...is it getting your own way, or respecting that everyone has their own beliefs?

 

[*Starlight*]

It can be...but there comes a point on both sides where the help is no longer wanted. I would understand if some homosexuals were offended when Christians pointed out their interpretation of the Bible ("You're living in sin and will be condemned to hell if you don't repent" usually seems to equate to "you're evil"). Sure, you can point it out...but I'd imagine if you pushed the point or wanted to debate them on it they wouldn't be so receiving, nor would your point be considered overly helpful.

By the same token, somebody who is homosexual and believes that it is a sin is probably more than happy to hear that you don't think there's anything wrong with it...but your beliefs are not theirs and the point becomes unhelpful if they wish to change and you're stuck on "there's nothing wrong with you, you don't need to change".

I guess the question comes down to what you believe moral duty is...is it getting your own way, or respecting that everyone has their own beliefs?

Hi!

What if someone said... "I want to kill myself, what's the best way to do it"? Using the same logic, we should respect such a person's decision, and not try to convince them not to kill themselves, because it would be unhelpful... it may seem like an extreme example, but not accepting your own sexual orientation leads to a lot of suffering, and sometimes even suicide. That's why, I think that the "Struggles with Sexuality" forum on CF is actually dangerous, because it doesn't allow anyone to give such people any alternative to their suffering.

 

[Andreusz]

Hi!

What if someone said... "I want to kill myself, what's the best way to do it"? Using the same logic, we should respect such a person's decision, and not try to convince them not to kill themselves, because it would be unhelpful... it may seem like an extreme example, but not accepting your own sexual orientation leads to a lot of suffering, and sometimes even suicide. That's why, I think that the "Struggles with Sexuality" forum on CF is actually dangerous, because it doesn't allow anyone to give such people any alternative to their suffering.

I think that is a brilliant reply. Thank you.

 

[Kerwin]

I struggle with temptation and sometimes the bear gets me. My question is how many of you think I should go to a church that will tell me it is righteous for me to sin as it gives glory to God?

 

[FindingaWay]

Is it dangerous to try to help people who honestly want, or need to come to terms with what they believe, and how it relates to their sexuality?
Most of us are well aware of the alternative views, and respect those who have found a way to reconcile what they are with their love of God.
We know that some people don't believe it is a sin to be gay. But, being constantly told that doesn't actually help... conviction is personal, and can't just be turned off.
And talking to others who understand and have been through the same struggle is not dangerous.. it can be a life-line.

 

[Bamboo_Chicken]

Hi!

What if someone said... "I want to kill myself, what's the best way to do it"? Using the same logic, we should respect such a person's decision, and not try to convince them not to kill themselves, because it would be unhelpful... it may seem like an extreme example, but not accepting your own sexual orientation leads to a lot of suffering, and sometimes even suicide. That's why, I think that the "Struggles with Sexuality" forum on CF is actually dangerous, because it doesn't allow anyone to give such people any alternative to their suffering.

How is a cry for help that leads to a debate thread is any more helpful though? If you're concerned though, you're more than welcome to contact any member via PM and let them know what you think...it leaves the forum a non-debate area and still allows you to talk to them if you want.