Seventh-day Adventist denomination - said to be 5th largest Christian denomination world-wide

[BobRyan]

Just to be clear, the size of the Adventist denomination should have no bearing on whether or not someone likes it.

You would think so. I agree.

My point here has to do with the "sky is falling" message that we sometimes see being suggested about the Adventist denomination as if that success noted in the OP is non-existent even though the success is "noticed" even by independent non-SDA organizations like ChristianityToday.

 

[BobRyan]

The source you mention called for the SDA to engage in the kind of reforms @icedragon101 is advocating.

He has some interesting suggestions what we have in real history is a success result that is a matter of public record and the doctrines of the church are a huge part of that success... it comes back to the old saying in the South -- "don't fix what ain't broke"

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

Address only the content of the post and not the poster.

It's in the rules; and it's a good one.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[tall73]

Ok so you have your opinion and ChristianityToday has theirs... I am fine with those two different ways of categorizing them. The Jan 2015 article report in the OP is a matter of public record. I am ok with that.

Christianity Today did not give an opinion. They gave a fact, which is either correct or not.

@The Liturgist listed specific churches which he claims are larger than the SDA church.

the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
the Calvary Chapel
Assemblies of God in Brazil

So now it is your turn to address his list. Are these churches larger than the Adventist church? If so, then the Christianity Today article was wrong. So please address the list that he gave.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok so you have your opinion and ChristianityToday has theirs... I am fine with those two different ways of categorizing them. The Jan 2015 article report in the OP is a matter of public record. I am ok with that.

It’s not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Statistics is a science, not a philosophy or an art form.

And indeed what is a matter of public record is that, at least in 2015, ChristianityToday had sloppy editing and sloppy fact checking, shockingly so, even, because omitting so many communions and denominations suggests either the writer did care or a draft of his article was hurriedly published without the editorial scrutiny one would expect from a major periodical.

Baptists count baptized children as do Adventists and neither group baptizes infants.

Not as members, not according to my source material,and my statistics were specifically focused on membership, and you can view the material I worked with on wikipedia through the link provided by @IceDragon or the Google search terms I provided.

 

[tampasteve]

My point here has to do with the "sky is falling" message that we sometimes see being suggested about the Adventist denomination as if that success noted in the OP is non-existent even though the success is "noticed" even by independent non-SDA organizations like ChristianityToday.

That's interesting, I had not heard that before - though it does not surprise me. Usually one hears those statements more about the Mainline churches, with plenty of data to back it up really.

 

[BobRyan]

It’s not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Statistics is a science, not a philosophy .

one could argue that ChristiantyToday is expressing their "philosophy" in their Jan 2015 article saying that at a certain number of baptized members the Adventist church is the 5th largest denomination in the world where they then name the 4 denominations larger than Adventists.

Others will see that as a claim of fact about how one categorizes groups and relative sizes of each...

You have free will of course. Maybe you audited ChristiantyToday's categorizing method and determined that they were using philosphy... or maybe you did not get that audit done at all. Who knows? I am happy to have differing opinions posted.

Christianity Today did not give an opinion. They gave a fact,

Indeed and some might audit their method to see how they came up with categories and relative sizes... or not audit them at all and select some "other" method for categorizing. Choose what you wish - you have free will.

 

[BobRyan]

"
10th: Seventh Day Adventists – 21million"
The 10 Biggest Christian Denominations in the World - Generation95

Has this

.
5th – Baptists – 80million

A very well known denomination is the Baptists. There are around 80million Baptists around the world, with this denomination well-known for its belief that baptism should be only done by professing believers – rather than at childbirth.

Which we know many Baptists do NOT agree that all groups having the word "Baptist" in their name are part of their "denomination" for example certain Baptist denominations do NOT share communion with Southern Baptists... Each Baptist denomination has its own distinct doctrines and practices be it General Baptists, Fundamental Baptists, Missionary Baptist, Seventh-day Baptist, Free Will Baptist, etc.

"There are now more than 50 Baptist groups in the United States alone"

Southern Baptists do not submit to, or coordinate with the doctrines, practices , policies of Seventh-day Baptists or practices (for example).

You might as well lump all Seventh-day keeping denominations together and call them "Seventh-day Adventist" using that sloppy method.

======================= more along those lines

from: Southern Baptist Convention - Wikipedia

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a Christian denomination based in the United States. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination, and the largest Protestant[2][3] and second-largest Christian denomination in the United States"

===============================

Seems like SBC is "a Christian denomination" depending on the motive/intent of the one categorizing ... or it is merely "part of" the supposedly "baptist denomination" and every one else is "wrong".

"depending on the motive/intent of the one categorizing" --

Some folks would have it "both ways" and accuse other of some evil thinking if they do not agree. I am in favor of individuals choosing as they "wish" but they need not think their "wish" is actually being followed in all cases by independent sources.

Christianity Today did not give an opinion. They gave a fact,

Indeed.

 

[Albion]

"There are now more than 50 Baptist groups in the United States alone"

The number of different church bodies does not tell us that there exist that many different belief systems. Nor do the membership statistics of any particular church body mean that there is unanimity on all matters of importance within that organization.

 

[BobRyan]

The number of different church bodies does not tell us that there exist that many different belief systems. Nor do the membership statistics of any particular church body mean that there is unanimity on all matters of importance within that organization.

The different Baptist denominations do not submit to or agree with each other on policy, practices or doctrines and do not even claim to be part of one single higher level denomination.

People "who wish" them into a single denomination are welcome to have that opinion however.

 

[BobRyan]

Baptists count baptized children as do Adventists when in each case they are voted into membership - and neither group baptizes infants.

d my statistics were specifically focused on membership, .

I have attended both -- have you??
my statement is accurate.

For Baptists an adult or a child can be baptized without choosing to join the local congregation in a Baptist church - but it has nothing to do with age.

For Adventists a person is baptized and then the church immediately receives a motion to be voted on - accepting the person into membership.

So for both groups the act of baptism alone does not make the person a member.

 

[Albion]

The different Baptist denominations do not submit to or agree with each other on policy, practices or doctrines and do not even claim to be part of one single higher level denomination.

Well, not if you're surveying 50 (!) different Baptist church bodies. We have to note also that there are a dozen or more Sabbatarian and Adventist churches that compete with the SDA, some of which broke off from the SDA.

Also, surveys of American church members' beliefs show that the SDA church is not much different from other churches when it comes to what its members actually believe.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, not if you're surveying 50 (!) different Baptist church bodies, but there is a large degree of similarity among different groups of them. .

They all practice Believer's baptism... so do Adventists
They all have 66 books in the Bible ... so do Adventists
They all believe in a literal death burial and resurrection and ascension of Christ... so do Adventists
They all do not consider themselves to be part of the Southern Baptist Convention if they are actually not part of it.. as do Adventists

Indeed many similarities across some of these denominations

 

[Albion]

They all practice Believer's baptism... so do Adventists
They all have 66 books in the Bible ... so do Adventists
They all believe in a literal death burial and resurrection and ascension of Christ... so do Adventists

Wow. Those are such basic beliefs and we'd find the same commonalities if we surveyed other of the well-known denominations, so this does not prove much.

 

[BobRyan]

"
10th: Seventh Day Adventists – 21million"
The 10 Biggest Christian Denominations in the World - Generation95

Interesting "top four" in that group - are very close to ChristianityToday.

1. - Catholic 1.3 B
2. - Pentecostal ISM (with Assemblies of God as part of it at 67M) - 280 M
3. - Eastern Orthodox 240 M
4. - Anglican 85 M

So when they get to 5 - they take all Baptist denominations and lump them into one single denomination regardless of doctrinal differences, separate organization, policies etc.

ChristianityToday did not make that "choice"

Christianity Today did not give an opinion. They gave a fact, which is either correct or not.
..
the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
the Calvary Chapel
Assemblies of God in Brazil

Clearly Daniel Marsh's link above "also" did not make "that choice" for the top 5... so are they all "evil" except for Liturgist's choice?

 

[BobRyan]

Well, not if you're surveying 50 (!) different Baptist church bodies, but there is a large degree of similarity among different groups of them. .

They all practice Believer's baptism... so do Adventists
They all have 66 books in the Bible ... so do Adventists
They all believe in a literal death burial and resurrection and ascension of Christ... so do Adventists
They all do not consider themselves to be part of the Southern Baptist Convention if they are actually not part of it.. as do Adventists

Indeed many similarities across some of these denominations

Wow. Those are such basic beliefs and we'd find the same commonalities if we surveyed other of the well-known denominations,

I'm glad you like them. You are the one starting with "degree of similarity" topic after all.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I posted the link to it in the OP.

Feel free to dislike ChristianityToday all you wish. I am simply pointing to them as a well-recognized independent source having made a certain observation that is not entirely unfavorable toward Adventists.

I don't think ChristianityToday is on a "mission to prop up Seventh-day Adventists"

Most scholars don't subscribe to C.T. thus, I can not even read their article. Thus, you need to quote them.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Depends on "whose counting" and what criteria they use for "what is a denomination".

It is super easy to say the SDA denomination is a real denomination with a single point of administration managing financial policy, one agreed upon set of doctrines and representing the face of the entire denomination.

If we review all other "Denominations" using that criteria when determining the size of any given denomination - then the numbers and ranking of 5th vs 22nd will be affected.

I think they used family groups and SDA is a family group by itself.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Note: you also claimed something like "fastest growing" denomination. And, the other tables I posted shows that was not true. I am guessing our Catholic friends would be the fastest growing based on physical births.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Catholicism