Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

rturner76

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If a person has to do a life change to bring about God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then the gift is not actually free and it is not by grace a person is saved.

But the gift is free and it is by God's grace, a person receives The Life of God.
So there is no need for repentance? There is no need to live live as a Christian? It would seem like all one needs to do is pay lip service to claiming faith is the salvation offered by Christ. However do you really think that a one time proclaimation of faith is what is in the message of the gospel or could it possibly have something to do with actually living a Christian life.

I think what you are talking about is not directly but akin to universal salvation. I mean if all one needs to do is make a one-time proclamation and not because you choose to live your life as a Christian (to the best of one's ability meaning perfection is not required). Still, wouldn't you thin that God would want us to make some kind of effort to live as Christ commands and not just pay lip service to his grace?
 
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d taylor

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So there is no need for repentance? There is no need to live live as a Christian? It would seem like all one needs to do is pay lip service to claiming faith is the salvation offered by Christ. However do you really think that a one time proclaimation of faith is what is in the message of the gospel or could it possibly have something to do with actually living a Christian life.

I think what you are talking about is not directly but akin to universal salvation. I mean if all one needs to do is make a one-time proclamation and not because you choose to live your life as a Christian (to the best of one's ability meaning perfection is not required). Still, wouldn't you thin that God would want us to make some kind of effort to live as Christ commands and not just pay lip service to his grace?
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I never said God does not want the believer to live as Christ like as they can. This plays a major role in the believers life, it is just not connected to an unbeliever becoming a born again child of God (a believer).

Living a life like Christ is connected to the discipleship of the believers life and has a major impact on the believer at the Bema seat judgment of The Messiah, concerning the gain or loss of rewards.
 
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rturner76

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I have underlined the words which indicate a misunderstanding of salvation. When a person is inhabited by God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, he becomes a new creature. The new man is "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). If there are any desires to follow Christ's example or if there is any evidence of a changed life, it is because God has come to live in the person's heart. In other words, if there is any good in you at all, it is because Jesus is in your heart. If anyone thinks otherwise, then he thinks the good in him is his own doing.
I wholeheartedly agree. It is the acceptance of Christ's salvation that makes it possible to live for Christ. Once we are given the gift of faith, we are allowed to act in faith and we should/ I guess I see faith as a verb rather than a known. IMO, faith is not something one could possess but but faith is something we live. Once given the gift of faith through the grace of our Lord, there is no benefit to one's faith unless it is acted upon.

Not meaning that one gets a certain amount of credit for "works" but that "works" are the evidence of one's faith for we know that "faith without works is dead."
 
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rturner76

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I never said God does not want the believer to live as Christ like as they can.
It just seemed like God's desire for us to live as Christ did is irrelevant if one proclaims faith and continues in their old ways as you said, we are saved by grace alone and it has nothing to do with our actions as Christians (paraphrasing something you eludid to in a past post, please forgive me if I got that wrong).
 
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d taylor

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It just seemed like God's desire for us to live as Christ did is irrelevant if one proclaims faith and continues in their old ways as you said, we are saved by grace alone and it has nothing to do with our actions as Christians (paraphrasing something you eludid to in a past post, please forgive me if I got that wrong).
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How we live is not irrelevant, but it is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Paul preaches against not living like the world as a believer. Go took the lives of many believers who would not let go of their worldly desires. Ananias and Sapphira also many died at the last supper remembrance supper and there are more accounts throughout The Bible.
 
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B Griffin

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You are welcome.

That is very correct that contratodo did not start the errors. He or she is just repeating past miss-teachings from some source (church, book, etc..)

This is a little more on 1st Corinthians 15 these articles may provide a little more information.

https://faithalone.org/blog/unless-you-believed-in-vain-1-corinthians-152/

Another Look at 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 – Grace Evangelical Society
I had a professor at seminary in the 1980's tell the class 1 Cor 15:13-19 was saying that even if Jesus didn't rise from the dead we should still act the same because of the benefits of living well. He ridiculed me when I said it was saying the opposite.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. [The New King James Version (1 Co 15:13–19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​
 
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rturner76

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How we live is not irrelevant, but it is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Paul preaches against not living like the world as a believer. Go took the lives of many believers who would not let go of their worldly desires. Ananias and Sapphira also many died at the last supper remembrance supper and there are more accounts throughout The Bible.
Yes, we do not receive grace by our behavior. I believe in lay terms that we must do our best to live as a Christian and God will forgive our mistakes (sins).
 
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B Griffin

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I wholeheartedly agree. It is the acceptance of Christ's salvation that makes it possible to live for Christ. Once we are given the gift of faith, we are allowed to act in faith and we should/ I guess I see faith as a verb rather than a known. IMO, faith is not something one could possess but but faith is something we live. Once given the gift of faith through the grace of our Lord, there is no benefit to one's faith unless it is acted upon.

Not meaning that one gets a certain amount of credit for "works" but that "works" are the evidence of one's faith for we know that "faith without works is dead."
"Faith" comes in 3 forms in the NT. Each form has its own negative .

Basic Form​
Negative Form​
Noun​
πιστ-ις: “confidence,”
“trust,” “faith”​
α-πιστ-ια: “unfaithfulness,” “distrust,”
“doubt”​
Verb​
πιστ-ευω: “to trust,”
“to rely on,” “to believe”​
α-πιστ-εω: “to refuse to believe,”
“to be distrustful,” “to be unbelieving”​
Adjective​
πιστ-ος: “trusting,”
“faithful,” “trustworthy”​
α-πιστ-ος: “distrustful,” “unfaithful,”
“unreliable”​

As faith relates to salvation, God tells people they are sinners in need of a Savior and offers to save their souls by Jesus who died for their sins. Those who "trust Him" (i.e., the verbal form of "faith") receive Jesus and the forgiveness of sins that He offers. Their "faith" and their "receiving" (i.e., the action associated with their faith) isn't what saves them. Their faith leads them to receive Jesus and His forgivness, but Jesus Himself saves them by forgiving their sins and coming to live in their hearts. Everyone who receives Him is made a child of God through Spiritual birth. When this happens to a person, he/she knows it. They know their sins are forgiven, and they know (or at least they come to know) that Jesus has taken up residence in their hearts.

As faith relates to Christian living, it works the same way. The Spirit of God teaches, leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the depths of our own hearts. When we hear Him, trust Him, and walk where he leads, then we are living lives of faith. In other words, when we walk in the Spirit, that's when we are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and that's when we bear the fruit of the Spirit.

But as we live out our Christian lives, there is never a proper occasion to turn away from our confidence (i.e., "faith") in Christ and the forgiveness of sins His sacrifice achieved in favor of the idea that the security of our salvation is dependent on the goodness of our works. The Book of Galatians attacks this subject matter head-on:

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:3–4)​
 
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d taylor

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I had a professor at seminary in the 1980's tell the class 1 Cor 15:13-19 was saying that even if Jesus didn't rise from the dead we should still act the same because of the benefits of living well. He ridiculed me when I said it was saying the opposite.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. [The New King James Version (1 Co 15:13–19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

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Yes not sure of his position. was he thinking that living well may extend ones life. Because there would be no Eternal Life without Christ defeating death.
 
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rturner76

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Their faith leads them to receive Jesus and His forgivness, but Jesus Himself saves them by forgiving their sins and coming to live in their hearts.
That begs the question, "What did he enter our hearts to do?' I believe that he has come into our hearts to make us followers of his (and the Apostle's) teachings. To follow a way of life (I have heard that Christians were first called "people of the way.") IMO a "way" of going or indicating that one is taking the actions up of the people who teach how to live the "way." who teach not just what to think but what to do to stay on that path. As we all know "narrow is the and difficult is the way." I take something like that and "take up your cross" as a call to action.
Everyone who receives Him is made a child of God through Spiritual birth. When this happens to a person, he/she knows it. They know their sins are forgiven, and they know (or at least they come to know) that Jesus has taken up residence in their hearts.
Once he does take up residence in our hearts, and forgives us of our sins. As a child of God through spiritual birth, speaking for myself, I would want to make him (our Father) proud by following his example and instructions. For me, it wouldn't do to just acknowledge that he is my father without following his instructions.
When we hear Him, trust Him, and walk where he leads, then we are living lives of faith. In other words, when we walk in the Spirit, that's when we are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and that's when we bear the fruit of the Spirit.
Very well put "Walk where he leads." As a Christian, my experience with the few Churches that I have been involved with, conservative, liberal, Catholic, and Protestant, has been a consistent message in all of the Churches I know. It's not just about agreeing that the walk is right, it's more about taking that walk or taking up our cross. It's difficult and we are not born perfect. That is why when we falter on our walk, we are forgiven.
His sacrifice achieved in favor of the idea that the security of our salvation is dependent on the goodness of our works.
I don't know if it's just semantics but it's not that we are favored due to our achievements or "works" as it were. It's that works are not the cause of our faith but our works (how we live and treat other people) are the evidence of our faith. St James wrote an entire book on this topic which is often ignored in order to favor a portion of St Paul's writings. Which do conflict in text but in interpretation.
 
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d taylor

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Yes, we do not receive grace by our behavior. I believe in lay terms that we must do our best to live as a Christian and God will forgive our mistakes (sins).
The New Birth
Well i look at this way. It did not take Jesus a life time to turn water to wine (or accomplish any of His miracles) they happened in a moment of time.
So why would it take a life time for Jesus to turn an unbeliever into a born again child of God.
It does not, the new birth happens just like all of Jesus' other miracles in a moment of time. The time it takes for a person to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Now some unbelievers may have to work a lifetime getting to the point of belief. Not because that is what God requires, but because they (like is stated in John 6*) have to work through false ways (food which perishes) they have been taught.

*Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
 
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Samson2021

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I have 1 problem with that and it is this.

Phl 1:6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue His work until it is finally finished on the day
when Jesus Christ returns.

Transformation is indeed a process that God performs on and in you. Sanctification is the process whereby you are transformed.
That said it is God that decides when you can handle and what you can handle in the process. Just like someone that overeats
and throws up, you can get so much at once that most will not be retained. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little
there a little.
He began the work in you and will see it to completion, but it may not be in the way you think it should. He knows what you need
before you ask and sometimes we don't even know what we need. If it were up to us to be transformed on our own I think we would
fail as we are not educated in the ways of the Spirit as much as we might think.
Some study their entire lives and never come to the knowledge of the truth. We must have faith that God will complete what He started.
Be anxiously patient while waiting upon the Lord.
 
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B Griffin

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Yes not sure of his position. was he thinking that living well may extend ones life. Because there would be no Eternal Life without Christ defeating death.
I'm not sure of his full position (it was nearly 40 years ago, lol). I just remember him rejecting the concept that if Christ did not rise from the dead then we who promote it are most pitiable of all people (promoting a lie, suffering persecution for a lie, still being in our sins, and having a futile faith).

But this actually brings up a good point in the context of this thread. Our faith in Christ's death for our sins and His ressurection from the dead is not in vain because He actually did those things. This means we are not the most pitiable of all people, we are not promoting a lie, we are not persecuted for promoting a lie, we are not still in our sins, and our faith is not in vain. There is no mention in that discussion that we are right with God because of our good works. It all depends on our trust in Christ dying for our sins and rising from the dead.
 
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B Griffin

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That begs the question, "What did he enter our hearts to do?' I believe that he has come into our hearts to make us followers of his (and the Apostle's) teachings.
This is the right question because it gets to the heart of the matter. Jesus said He (and His Father) would take up residence in our hearts in order to make Himself known to us, to lead us, to guide us, to teach us, to warn us, to correct us, to comfort us, and to make us one with Him and the Father (John 14-17). With Jesus in our hearts, we are complete (Col 2:9-10), we have everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3), and we possess His life, yes His eternal life (1 Jn 5:11-12).
To follow a way of life (I have heard that Christians were first called "people of the way.") IMO a "way" of going or indicating that one is taking the actions up of the people who teach how to live the "way." who teach not just what to think but what to do to stay on that path. As we all know "narrow is the and difficult is the way." I take something like that and "take up your cross" as a call to action.
Jesus is the gate and He is the way. It is unfortunate that some tranlations characterize the way as "difficult". NASB, NIV, and YLT more appropriatly capture the meaning.

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mt 7:13–14 NASB 1995)​

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Mt 7:13–14 NIV)​

13 ‘Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; 14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt 7:13–14 YLT)​

Jesus made it obvious that the way is not difficult:

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Mt 11:28–30)​

But those who labor and are heavy laden don't see it that way, for obvious reasons.
Once he does take up residence in our hearts, and forgives us of our sins. As a child of God through spiritual birth, speaking for myself, I would want to make him (our Father) proud by following his example and instructions. For me, it wouldn't do to just acknowledge that he is my father without following his instructions.
It may be semantics only, as you mention below, but I do not have such a distant relationship with the Father. I do not try to please Him by "following His example (when He lived on the earth) and (His written) instructions". He lives in my heart. He tells me what to think, where to go, what to do, what to say, and how to say it. When I do not follow His instructions, He corrects me. We have an intimate personal relationship.
Very well put "Walk where he leads." As a Christian, my experience with the few Churches that I have been involved with, conservative, liberal, Catholic, and Protestant, has been a consistent message in all of the Churches I know. It's not just about agreeing that the walk is right, it's more about taking that walk or taking up our cross. It's difficult and we are not born perfect. That is why when we falter on our walk, we are forgiven.
I do recognize that though you state your affiliation as "Catholic", you seem have a broader view of Christianity.
I don't know if it's just semantics but it's not that we are favored due to our achievements or "works" as it were. It's that works are not the cause of our faith but our works (how we live and treat other people) are the evidence of our faith.
This is part of Baptist doctrine also. But it has its flaws. One main flaw is that if good works are evidence of salvation, then what is sin evident of? The most compelling answer is that if sin is followed by repentence then repentance is evidence of salvation. To me, this loophole destroys the original claim. The better paradigm is to say that whatever good is in me is because Jesus lives in me.
St James wrote an entire book on this topic which is often ignored in order to favor a portion of St Paul's writings. Which do conflict in text but in interpretation.
I wouldn't say that the entire Book of James discusses a single topic. Effectivness of prayer and the lifecycle of sin are two examples of other topics. But I do think you are right that James' statements about faith without works being dead are often ignored by those who don't believe in faith plus works. But proponents of faith plus works also ignore some things James says.

For example, James says,

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Jas 2:10–13 NKJV)​

The above paragraph leads into James' discussion that faith without works is dead. What does it mean? It means if someone says they are dead to the law through the body of Christ (Ro 7:4) but are judgmental towards other people who break the law, their "faith" is innefective. If a person believes they are not under law but under grace, then they should "speak and do" (i.e., "act") "as those who will be judged by the law of liberty".
 
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I have 1 problem with that and it is this.

Phl 1:6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue His work until it is finally finished on the day
when Jesus Christ returns.

Transformation is indeed a process that God performs on and in you. Sanctification is the process whereby you are transformed.
That said it is God that decides when you can handle and what you can handle in the process. Just like someone that overeats
and throws up, you can get so much at once that most will not be retained. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little
there a little.
He began the work in you and will see it to completion, but it may not be in the way you think it should. He knows what you need
before you ask and sometimes we don't even know what we need. If it were up to us to be transformed on our own I think we would
fail as we are not educated in the ways of the Spirit as much as we might think.
Some study their entire lives and never come to the knowledge of the truth. We must have faith that God will complete what He started.
Be anxiously patient while waiting upon the Lord.

Paul is writing to believers who are committed to following Christ. He does not write that to all believers, many he writes scolding them for their actions
 
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rturner76

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So why would it take a life time for Jesus to turn an unbeliever into a born again child of God.
It doesn't. One can experience saving faith in an instant. The question becomes "What does that person's faith mean to them?" Does it mean that one can say a few words to an assembly and still rape murder and steal? I don't think so. When one accepts grace through faith, Jesus gives us the strength to follow him. Now if one was fortunate enough to see Christ in person and he looked up and said "Follow me." When one says "yes," does that mean they can sit in that same spot while Jesus walks away, or now that one has been given their life up to follow Christ (in an extreme example). Would it do to sit at the place where one has made their commitment and do nothing Christian nor learn anything about Christ's message or would it seem more logical that the person actually take up their cross (whatever is holding them back) and actually follow Christ as he teaches and preaches learning how to act as a member of Christ's flock or a teacher of his message?

We must not only "say" we are Christian but we must actually "BE and live as a Christian" (ie a follower of Christ
It does not, the new birth happens just like all of Jesus' other miracles in a moment of time. The time it takes for a person to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.
Please clarify. Being saved in a moment of time releases one from the obligation to BE a Christian. What were the prominent statements Christ made when he performed a miracle? "Go, AND SIN NO MORE" not "Go and stay in your sinful life because you are saved." or he said "your faith has helped you." Saving faith is being subordinate to God and serving God. Not so much as us demanding that God serve us in our sinful ways. We are saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH, and I think people have misinterpreted as meaning once one accepts Christ they have no other obligation. None of of followers of Christ who were taught by Christ make this assumption. Faith was always tied to living faith because faith without works (or a change from sinful ways) is DEAD. Would most people rather practice living faith or dead faith.
*Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
This refers to laboring for worldly things or Godly things. Would it be more advisable and healthy for daily living if we work for the world or work for God's will? God grants us faith in order to be capable of doing his will. He doesn't grant us faith in order to make no changes to our lives and continue to live as thieves, abusers, murderers, prostitutes, etc. He grants us faith so we can use it to do his will.

Is there anything I have stated here that you can relate to? It's not that works will grant us a place with him but it is the evidence of our level of faith. It's not the cause of our faith but it is the evidence of our faith (alive or dead).
 
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d taylor

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It doesn't. One can experience saving faith in an instant. The question becomes "What does that person's faith mean to them?" Does it mean that one can say a few words to an assembly and still rape murder and steal? I don't think so. When one accepts grace through faith, Jesus gives us the strength to follow him. Now if one was fortunate enough to see Christ in person and he looked up and said "Follow me." When one says "yes," does that mean they can sit in that same spot while Jesus walks away, or now that one has been given their life up to follow Christ (in an extreme example). Would it do to sit at the place where one has made their commitment and do nothing Christian nor learn anything about Christ's message or would it seem more logical that the person actually take up their cross (whatever is holding them back) and actually follow Christ as he teaches and preaches learning how to act as a member of Christ's flock or a teacher of his message?

We must not only "say" we are Christian but we must actually "BE and live as a Christian" (ie a follower of Christ

Please clarify. Being saved in a moment of time releases one from the obligation to BE a Christian. What were the prominent statements Christ made when he performed a miracle? "Go, AND SIN NO MORE" not "Go and stay in your sinful life because you are saved." or he said "your faith has helped you." Saving faith is being subordinate to God and serving God. Not so much as us demanding that God serve us in our sinful ways. We are saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH, and I think people have misinterpreted as meaning once one accepts Christ they have no other obligation. None of of followers of Christ who were taught by Christ make this assumption. Faith was always tied to living faith because faith without works (or a change from sinful ways) is DEAD. Would most people rather practice living faith or dead faith.

This refers to laboring for worldly things or Godly things. Would it be more advisable and healthy for daily living if we work for the world or work for God's will? God grants us faith in order to be capable of doing his will. He doesn't grant us faith in order to make no changes to our lives and continue to live as thieves, abusers, murderers, prostitutes, etc. He grants us faith so we can use it to do his will.

Is there anything I have stated here that you can relate to? It's not that works will grant us a place with him but it is the evidence of our level of faith. It's not the cause of our faith but it is the evidence of our faith (alive or dead).
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What about these believers.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
 
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rturner76

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What about these believers.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Certainly, all Christians must confess Him. Also, I believe, that after confessing faith in Him, one should follow Him to the best of their ability knowing that behavioral perfection is impossible for human beings. Repentance, strips away one's sinful past, allowing one to proclaim Christ The next step is to start building a life away from the sinful onto the path one has previously proclaimed they believe in.
 
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d taylor

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Certainly, all Christians must confess Him. Also, I believe, that after confessing faith in Him, one should follow Him to the best of their ability knowing that behavioral perfection is impossible for human beings. Repentance, strips away one's sinful past, allowing one to proclaim Christ The next step is to start building a life away from the sinful onto the path one has previously proclaimed they believe in.
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These verses are saying these believers did not confess Christ.
 
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