Question for Catholics Regarding Mary

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Fidei

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Hi everyone! This is my first post on CF. After reading several forum area descriptions, I though this one seemed most appropriate. I hope this is the right area for this question.

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My grandfather, who is a life-long Catholic, is concerned that I understand his faith. He feels that it is important to honor Mary as the mother of God. How do Catholics view Mary? What exactly do Catholics mean by "honor" and by "Mother of God" (Theotokos)?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated,

--Fidei
 
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Peaceful Dove

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Hi everyone! This is my first post on CF. After reading several forum area descriptions, I though this one seemed most appropriate. I hope this is the right area for this question.

----

My grandfather, who is a life-long Catholic, is concerned that I understand his faith. He feels that it is important to honor Mary as the mother of God. How do Catholics view Mary? What exactly do Catholics mean by "honor" and by "Mother of God" (Theotokos)?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated,

--Fidei

I will step up and try to answer this.
We try our best to view her, love and respect her as much like Jesus does as possible. We view her as our mother.
Why, well if God is our Father, Jesus is our Brother, we choose Jesus mom to be our Spiritual mom.
How do you view your own mom? We all know how we love our own moms, no secret there.
About like that.
 
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Peaceful Dove

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I will step up and try to answer this.
We try our best to view her, love and respect her as much like Jesus does as possible. We view her as our mother.
Why, well if God is our Father, Jesus is our Brother, we choose Jesus mom to be our Spiritual mom.
How do you view your own mom? We all know how we love our own moms, no secret there.
About like that.

Oh, by the way, that is why some folks hurt our feelings so badly when they disrespect us for loving her and when they disrespect the Mother of Jesus.
 
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a_ntv

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Hi everyone! This is my first post on CF. After reading several forum area descriptions, I though this one seemed most appropriate. I hope this is the right area for this question.

----

My grandfather, who is a life-long Catholic, is concerned that I understand his faith. He feels that it is important to honor Mary as the mother of God. How do Catholics view Mary? What exactly do Catholics mean by "honor" and by "Mother of God" (Theotokos)?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated,

--Fidei

Catholics (and EO and OO) love Mary, because She is the person more near to Christ.

Look at my avatar (the picture on top right): it is the classical picture of Mary with Baby Jesus in her arms: that is for us the best sign of the love of God, because it remember us that Christ was made flash (incarnation) for us. While protestants focus mainly the cross, catholic and orthodoxes focus in the same way also Incarnation.

Mary is the Mother of God. Please consider that this title is a Christologic title: it is on Mary but to speak about Christ: it is like to say that Christ is both true man and true God.
 
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IfIonlyhadabrain

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Fidei, you have been given good answers so far, but I feel there is a vast portion of the Catholic view of Mary that has been left out. This view pertains to Mary's role as Queen of Heaven, and is a very large part of the reasons we pray to her, particularly prayers of petition.

In the Gospel of Luke, when Gabriel visits Mary to speak of Jesus' conception and birth, Gabriel reveals the nature of the Kingdom that Jesus will establish. It will be of the same kind as the Kingdom of David, but it will be of a spiritual nature, having no end.

Luke 1:31-33 "31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end."

In the Kingdom of David, the king had many wives (the reasons for which pertain to human weakness), none of which could rightly be called 'Queen.' Therefore, the title of Queen was reserved for the king's mother, who was called the Queen Mother. The authority of the Queen Mother far surpassed the authority of the many queens who were the brides of the king. Bathsheeba clearly plays this role during the reign of Solomon.

Moreover, and this is a point of particular import, the Queen Mother even acted as reagent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

Since the Kingdom of Christ is that same Kingdom of David, we see the role of Queen Mother is taken up by Mary, who is Queen Mother in the new Kingdom. Thusly, we call her Queen of Heaven. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and as such we see a prophetic corellation be between the many brides of the davidnic kingdom, and the Church, since the Church is made up of all of us. Furthermore, Mary's authority surpasses the authority of the Church, just as the authority of the Queen Mother of the Davidnic Kingdom surpassed the authority of the King's brides. Thusly, it has been in matters of certain debated dogmas that the authority of authentic apparitions of Mary have settled the truth of such dogmas historically. One such dogma being the Immaculate Conception (which was authenticated through the apparition of Our Lady of Lourdes).

Moreover, Mary also acts as reagent, just as the Queen Mother did, but we do not consider her authority as surpassing Christ's (for clearly Christ is not a juvenile successor to the throne). However, we see this role particularly fulfilled at the Wedding Feast of Cana. At that time, Mary brought the needs of the married couple to Christ, petitioning that He do something about their lack of win. Christ responds by stating that His "time has not yet come," yet proceeds to do as the Queen Mother asks. In this way, by it not being Christ's time, we understand that Mary acted as Reagent on behalf of Christ (who, in this instance, would be seen as the juvenile successor who's time to reign as King had not yet arrived (ie, His public ministry, whereby He would act as Priest, Prophet and King, another aspect of the davidnic kingdom)).

So, it is for this reason that Mary holds a position of specific authority in the Catholic view, as Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the same Kingdom of David to which Jesus Christ has rightful claim. This is the reason we petition Mary, not that she has the power or authority to grant it to us, but that she may do so through Christ, the true King. This is her role as the Queen Mother in the Davidnic Kingdom of Christ.
 
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livingword26

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Fidei, you have been given good answers so far, but I feel there is a vast portion of the Catholic view of Mary that has been left out. This view pertains to Mary's role as Queen of Heaven, and is a very large part of the reasons we pray to her, particularly prayers of petition.

In the Gospel of Luke, when Gabriel visits Mary to speak of Jesus' conception and birth, Gabriel reveals the nature of the Kingdom that Jesus will establish. It will be of the same kind as the Kingdom of David, but it will be of a spiritual nature, having no end.

Luke 1:31-33 "31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end."

In the Kingdom of David, the king had many wives (the reasons for which pertain to human weakness), none of which could rightly be called 'Queen.' Therefore, the title of Queen was reserved for the king's mother, who was called the Queen Mother. The authority of the Queen Mother far surpassed the authority of the many queens who were the brides of the king. Bathsheeba clearly plays this role during the reign of Solomon.

Moreover, and this is a point of particular import, the Queen Mother even acted as reagent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

Since the Kingdom of Christ is that same Kingdom of David, we see the role of Queen Mother is taken up by Mary, who is Queen Mother in the new Kingdom. Thusly, we call her Queen of Heaven. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and as such we see a prophetic corellation be between the many brides of the davidnic kingdom, and the Church, since the Church is made up of all of us. Furthermore, Mary's authority surpasses the authority of the Church, just as the authority of the Queen Mother of the Davidnic Kingdom surpassed the authority of the King's brides. Thusly, it has been in matters of certain debated dogmas that the authority of authentic apparitions of Mary have settled the truth of such dogmas historically. One such dogma being the Immaculate Conception (which was authenticated through the apparition of Our Lady of Lourdes).

Moreover, Mary also acts as reagent, just as the Queen Mother did, but we do not consider her authority as surpassing Christ's (for clearly Christ is not a juvenile successor to the throne). However, we see this role particularly fulfilled at the Wedding Feast of Cana. At that time, Mary brought the needs of the married couple to Christ, petitioning that He do something about their lack of win. Christ responds by stating that His "time has not yet come," yet proceeds to do as the Queen Mother asks. In this way, by it not being Christ's time, we understand that Mary acted as Reagent on behalf of Christ (who, in this instance, would be seen as the juvenile successor who's time to reign as King had not yet arrived (ie, His public ministry, whereby He would act as Priest, Prophet and King, another aspect of the davidnic kingdom)).

So, it is for this reason that Mary holds a position of specific authority in the Catholic view, as Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the same Kingdom of David to which Jesus Christ has rightful claim. This is the reason we petition Mary, not that she has the power or authority to grant it to us, but that she may do so through Christ, the true King. This is her role as the Queen Mother in the Davidnic Kingdom of Christ.

Protestants, of course, do not give creedence to "apparitions", or do we believe that Mary can hear prayers, and so pray personally for each person that pettions her. No where in the bible can we see any backing for this kind of view of Mary, Queen of heaven. Catholics take offence at this and believe we are insulting Jesus and His mother, even though we understand that Mary is His mother, and as such is worthy of honour. Protestants are offended that people turn to a human (who is in heaven) to pray to and ignore the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus died to create.
 
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Oblio

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No where in the bible can we see any backing for this kind of view of Mary, Queen of heaven.

You might try perusing the OT for references to what the Mother of the King is titled.


Protestants are offended that people turn to a human (who is in heaven) to pray to and ignore the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus died to create.

Actually, what is offensive is when our failth is misrepresented by claiming that we substitute (or ignore) our personal relationship with Christ with that of the communion of the Saints.

BTW, we have a relationship with Three Persons, so 1 on 1 is an innacurate portrayal of that relationship.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Mary - the Mother of Our Lord (A Protestant Perspective)


.



MY perspective (as a Protestant)...



What God's Holy Scriptures tell us:
Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14
Mark 3:31-35; 6:1-6
Luke 1:27, 31-33, 39-55
Luke 2:1-24, 49
John 2:4
John 19:26-27
Acts 1:14
That's it.
That's all.



Immaculate Conception:
No Scripture remotely confirms it.
No Scripture clearly denies it.
Which leaves an unnormed but traditional opinion.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Recently dogma in the Catholic Church.


Perpetual Virginity:
No Scripture remotely confirms it.
No Scripture clearly denies it (but some verses seem to make it problematic)
Which leaves an unnormed but tradtional view.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Dogma in the Catholic Church.


Divine Maternity:
Scriptural support for the divine nature of Christ is solid. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus has a divine nature, in THAT sense, this is normed.
Tradition affirms this interpretation.
IMHO: Accepted but potentially very misleading.
(Not dogma in the CC)


"Queen of Heaven":
Related to above; in ancient Jewish culture, the mother of a king often had this title. It's not dogma but a title for Mary. As such, it is fitting.
IMHO: Accepted, but potentially misleading.
(Not dogma in the CC)


Assumption of Mary:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this.
Which leaves an unnormed but traditional opinion.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Newly dogma in the CC



Coredemptrix:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denied this, although several verses make it problemmatic.
Which leave an unnormed and I think fairly new viewpoint.
IMHO: Not dogma, probably not heresy. Opinion.
(Not dogma in the CC)


Mediatrix of all Graces:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this, although 1 Tim. 2:5 may make this problemmatic.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy if property understood. Opinion.
(Not dogma in the CC)


"Mother of the Church"
Another official title for Mary (not dogma)
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this.
IHMO, reveals an abilbical view of the Christianity and Christians.




Some quotes:

Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."


Pope Pius XII Coronation at Fatima (1948), "Mary is indeed worthy to receive honor and might and glory. She is exalted to hypostatic union with the Blessed Trinity. Her Kingom is as great as her Son's and God's."


While I won't quote them, it's clear that Martin Luther used the titles for Mary of "Mother of God" and "Ever Virgin Mary." He clearly accepted the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (although not as dogma) and rejected the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Assumption of Mary - then not dogmas as they are now. Of course, for Protestants, Luther was just a student of the Bible - fully accountable and subject to it. His words carry no more authority than any other man's.




Some Misc. thoughts....

1. God focused very little on Mary in His holy written Word - the Scriptures. Like Mary, it's focus seems to be on Christ.


2. While Catholics DO speak of a certain "worship" of Mary, they make it very clear they do not worship her as divine. "Mary belongs to the offspring of Adam and is one with all human beings in their need for salvation" (Vatican II) In modern English, "worship" has taken on that meaning it didn't have until recently.


3. At one time, Protestants (especially Lutherans and Anglicans) shared a certain veneration of Mary nearly the same as Catholics. As Catholics have become far more focused on Mary (note the dates of the quotes above, the Immaculate Conception was not declared dogma until 1854, the Assumption of Mary not until 1950), Protestants have moved away - in what I consider foolish and tragic.


4. Even an 18 year old guy cannot help but be amazingly moved by Luke Chapter 1. Here is a woman, probably younger than me, with a humility, faith and devotion that are beyond the ability of words to convey. That she might be considered chief among all saints is something I wouldn't challenge. Luke 1 and the story of Abraham and Issac about to be sacrificed are accounts that immediately spring to my mind when I think of what faith and discipleship mean...




MY perspective...



Pax.



- Josiah
 
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IfIonlyhadabrain

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Protestants are offended that people turn to a human (who is in heaven) to pray to and ignore the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus died to create.

I'm sorry that you take offense, but this is not what Catholics actually do. We pray to Mary, honor her, petition her, but we most certainly do not ignore Christ and our relationship with Him. In fact, our relationship with Mary only strengthens and invigorates our relationship with Christ. The phrase "to Christ through Mary" comes to mind. Though you may not believe it, when we pray to Mary, our attention and focus is turned to Christ in a new way. If there is any authenticity to such a practice, this is it: that the focus is Christ. Anything demonic in nature would only turn you away from Christ. The opposite is true in our devotion to Mary.
 
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stumpjumper

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Any insight would be greatly appreciated,

--Fidei

I think correct views of Mary and her role as the Mother of God are very important. Mariology is Christology in many ways and unfortunately a lot of non-Catholics and non-Orthodox Christians seem to forget that...

Interestingly, Mary was also the first disciple. She was the Mother of God, full of grace, and last words in the Gospel are "do whatever He tells you..." (in reference to Jesus)...

Mariology and Christology

Luther held the Immaculate Conception in high regard:

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin." ~ Martin Luther
 
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thereselittleflower

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Protestants, of course, do not give creedence to "apparitions",

Hi livingword26.

I wanted to jump in here at this point and ask something.

Are you sure that Protestants do not give creedence to "apparitions" ?

I was a protestant for 30 years before I became Catholic and I and the Protestants I associated with over the years had no trouble at all believing that angels can "appear". So, I would have to say that yes, Protestants do indeed believe in "apparitions".

It seems to me that it is not "apparititions" themselves that are the real issues per se, but "who" is appearing.

Now, I guess I would ask you in turn, if angels are in heaven and it is OK for angels to appear to us by God's power, why wouldn't it be OK for saints, who are also in heaven, to appear to us by God's power?


or do we believe that Mary can hear prayers, and so pray personally for each person that pettions her. No where in the bible can we see any backing for this kind of view of Mary, Queen of heaven. Catholics take offence at this and believe we are insulting Jesus and His mother, even though we understand that Mary is His mother, and as such is worthy of honour. Protestants are offended that people turn to a human (who is in heaven) to pray to and ignore the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus died to create.

Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you? Why are you turning to a human to "pray" to (for asking someone to do something for you is the very definition of the word "pray") asking them to pray for you?

(If you have difficulty with what I said about the word "pray", just do a word study in the King James bible and you will see several instances of the word "pray" being used of one person "praying" to another person)

Why is it OK for you to turn to another human being to ask them to pray for you?

Are you ignoring your 1 to 1 relationship with Jesus when you do so?



Peace
 
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Mariology is Christology in many ways and unfortunately a lot of non-Catholics and non-Orthodox Christians seem to forget that...
:thumbsup:

Calling Mary the Mother of God is not a statement about her - it is a statement about Christ. He is God. He was God in the womb and he was God when he was born. He was God when he ran aound the table as a kid and he was God when his mother rocked him to sleep at night.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Welcome to CF! :wave:

One way of looking at Marian devotion is to look at the Catholic view of saints in heaven generally. Since we believe that there is a perfect unity between all members of Christ's Body, whether or not they are still in this earthly life, we have a huge connection with the saints in heavan. Mary is considered to be the greatest of saints, so obviously our connection with her is very important.

We do not believe that God would have been born of a sinful vessel, so conclude that Mary--through God's Grace--was protected from original and actual sin. So while the saints are examples of fulfilled people that have reached perfection, Mary is the greatest of all of these.

Also, if Mary is without sin then her will must be perfectly in line with God's, because that is what it is to be without sin, since God is the sole Source of all goodness, and its definition. She remained entirely at harmony with God...she was not however omnipotent or 'perfect' in the sense of Ultimate. She was human, and the Bible tells us she was confused like we are, but still trusted. Thus whatever Mary desires is granted, because it is what God desires.

Our relationship with Mary, of course, goes beyond this. She is not just the greatest of saints. She is our mother, because we are part of Christ's Body. As the Mother of God, she is the Queen of Heaven and the Queen of all that is good, God being the Source of all that is good. The connection between a mother and child is arguably the closest relationship two people can have...so a spiritual mother who is also a perfect mother is spiritually close to us, protecting, guiding, loving and nurturing.

It is important, however, that for Catholics God is always the most important. We do not feel that we neglect our relationship with Him by focusing on Mary, because we do not see them as being opposed to each other. Also, we focus more directly on God the vast majority of the time. A Catholic is not required to focus constantly on Mary...he or she is required to try to focus constantly on God.
 
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stivvy

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Mary - the Mother of Our Lord (A Protestant Perspective) ..MY perspective (as a Protestant)......
What God's Holy Scriptures tell us:
Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14
Mark 3:31-35; 6:1-6
Luke 1:27, 31-33, 39-55
Luke 2:1-24, 49
John 2:4
John 19:26-27
Acts 1:14
That's it.
That's all.
....

See, again the difference between faiths. Protestants decided to be solo scripture at a point in history and choose to use only 1 tool given to us by the apostolic church. When scripture clearly tells us to hold strong to our traditions too. Trying to disprove the Catholic faith by saying "not shown in scripture" is dull and boring to us because we do not recognize the practice of your one dimentional faith. We are so much more broad than that thus our existance for over 2000 years and eternity! The infalibility of the mother church's teachings shall never be shaken.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Mary - the Mother of Our Lord (A Protestant Perspective)



MY perspective (as a Protestant)...

Thank you for your prespective Josiah

I would like to add to what you presented to give a more rounded, complete picture of what is contained in scripture. :)

What God's Holy Scriptures tell us:
Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14
Mark 3:31-35; 6:1-6
Luke 1:27, 31-33, 39-55
Luke 2:1-24, 49
John 2:4
John 19:26-27
Acts 1:14
That's it.
That's all.

Actually, no, I would have to disagree - that's not all. :)

Genesis 3:15
The Woman (virgin) who would have personal enmity between herself and satan. That means no affinity for satan or the things of satan including sin.

Luke's use of the word Kecharitomene in the greeting of the Angel in place of Mary's name -
"Hail Kecharitomene, the Lord is with you"​
is extremely significant, and along with this verse above, affirms that Mary, at the time of the Angel's greeting, is immaculate, filled with grace, something done in the long past, completed, nothing to be added to it, done for her, not by her . .

If there is sin, then there is room for more grace and thus a lack of grace and the filling with grace cannot be complete. However, if one is completely filled with grace, then there is no lack, and since what causes lack is sin, there is then no sin.

If Mary had at any time experienced sin, then she would have affinity to some degree for sin and satan, thus having a lack, to some degree of grace. But God tells us that He would put enmity between Mary and satan, not affinity. and the angel Gabriel tells us she is full of grace, not lacking in grace. Thus, no sin.

This is scriptural indication of Mary's Immaculate Conception.

Isaiah - Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son:
The virgin who would conceive and bear a son. Virgin, not just simple sexual purity, but something much more - virginity like a pristine, virgin forest.

This virginity was kept protected by Joseph, and though there are not scriptures which explicilty state this, such explicit statements are not necessary to have a doctrine. . . for example, there are no explicit statements that the Holy Spirit is Co Equal, Co Eternal, Co Eternally Pre-existing with the Father and the Son, yet it is Dogma that this is true. There is nothing the explicitly denies Mary's perpetual virginity in scripture, and what 'appearances' there may be to the contrary in English, are absent in the Greek.


Luke's timeline and manner of writting regarding the visitation of Mary with Elizabeth closely mimics and resembles (deliberately so) the Old Testament record of the Ark of the Covenant and David. To those who understand the significance of this, it is evident that Luke did this deliberately to indicate to those familiar with the Old Testament account of David and the Ark a striking parallel between the Ark and Mary. The Ark housed the tablets of stone with the word written by the finger of God, the manna, and Aaron's budded rod - all of which are types of Christ who is the Word made flesh, the Bread of Life, the High Priest, in Whom the Godhead dwelt bodily.

The Godhead, whom the universe cannot contain, dwelt bodily within Mary's womb, which the Ark was the foreshadow of. Mary is the new Ark.

Revelation end of 11 - beginning of 12 - The "Ark" is seen in heaven - this is immediately followed by the Woman with the crown of 12 stars, clothed with the Sun and the Moon beneath her feet. Luke illustrated Mary as the new Ark. She is then seen by John in heaven, then she is seen crowned with 12 stars, etc.

This illustrates in scripture her Assumption (not ascension, but assumption like Enoch and Elijah) into heaven and her Crowning - being the mother of the King, this makes her the Queen Mother just as the Davidic King (which Christ is) had a Queen Mother.

Revelation 22 - the first verse depicts the Trinity . . the Throne of the Father and the Lamb, the River of Life (the Holy Spirit) flowing from the Throne of the Father and the Lamb.

The next verse is a depiciton of Mary as the Tree of Life. This is one of her ancient Christian titles. The fruit of the tree offered is Jesus - the fruit of Mary's womb, as Elizabeth said "Blessed is the fruit of your womb". The leaves of the tree are offered for the healing of the nations: this illustrates Mary's coredemtion role, lessor, subordinate to Christ's, just as Eve's role in the fall was lessor, suborinate to Adam's.

What is 'recently' dogma has always been doctrine. :) What is doctrine, but not yet dogma, is and has always been doctrine, and may yet be elevated to dogmatic status to protect doctrine.

Dogma is simply a stronger form of doctrine. Doctrines are not optional. :)



Peace
 
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