Prove what good and evil are

[smaneck]

If *good* and *evil*were just words we could simply dismiss their existence. But they are not just words. Whatever brings a benefit (material, physical, emotional, or spiritual) to another is good, whereas whatever brings harm to another is evil. Another way to look at this is to see that whatever comes from God is good, whereas whatever comes from Satan is evil.

Those are two very different definitions.

 

[smaneck]

Hey, the OP asked you to prove this.

The only proof for that is to look in the dictionary!

 

[Achilles6129]

So... please explain the flood so the Christian god doesn't look horrible.

I think you've missed the point of this thread Prove to me that the Christian God is evil based on the Flood.

 

[smaneck]

God can prove that He is good. It's the evil in us that prevents us from accepting His proof, but God can overcome all evil, therefore all will acknowledge God as the One who overcomes all evil.

Logically, not until He actually does so.

 

[Job8]

Those are two very different definitions.

Only on the surface. The ultimate source of goodness is God, whereas the ultimate source of evil is Satan. Trying to escape this reality does not serve any purpose other than deluding ourselves.

 

[smaneck]

Only on the surface. The ultimate source of goodness is God, whereas the ultimate source of evil is Satan. Trying to escape this reality does not serve any purpose other than deluding ourselves.

According to the Bible God is the source of both good and evil. Read Isaiah 45.

 

[Gene2memE]

I think you've missed the point of this thread Prove to me that the Christian God is evil based on the Flood.

What would you call wiping out all life on earth bar a select few humans and animals (if you believe the story)?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I think you've missed the point of this thread Prove to me that the Christian God is evil based on the Flood.

But I didn't say evil, I said horrible...

Drowning toddlers is, to me, horrible. Which is demonstrably true.

 

[PsychoSarah]

all those examples take rigorous spiritual work and searching to understand. this is why so many Christians have a shoddy view of God - they simply don't know how to be properly religious.

I actually don't see many Christians that view YHWH negatively. Perhaps it would make people uncomfortable if they thought they were worshipping an evil or even just neutral being rather than a good one?

Furthermore, any explanation I have seen to try to justify a lot of the atrocious actions endorsed or directly committed by YHWH in the bible tend to rely on special pleading. Sorry, but creating humanity doesn't make it ok in my view to hurt people, demand worship on the pain of eternal torment, etc. Remember, Jesus had to die for your sins because YHWH is incapable of basic forgiveness without a blood sacrifice.

spiritual knowledge is something that must abide by its own particular disciplines. the bible is cool because it shows religious life which constitutes an interaction of both man and God. it shows both mans perceptions of God and hides mysteries in the oft darkened narratives.

Have you ever read other religious texts that aren't monotheistic? Zeus has a defined personality, rivalries, and even preferred forms that retain a degree of consistency. Some of the Norse gods have their entire existence laid out in the mythology, from birth to death (they aren't immortal). With Hindu gods, it can span multiple universe cycles developing personality and events, intertwined with the thoughts of observers as well as those directly involved. By comparison, YHWH is pretty darn vague.

'contemplation' is one of the most fundamental rules of the Christian faith. this is not something that every christian or atheist does and so of course they have an ignorance of how to properly understand the bible. and the very discipline of spiritually understanding the bible opens your eyes to a part of reality that you never saw before but you exist in all the time.

I think part of the reason quite a few people are Christian is because they don't think too much about the bible and what it says.

God is good because he is light.

So it claims, and light doesn't have a moral stance. As much as plants need it to grow, so too do they need the break darkness provides (many do, anyways). Also, creating life is a morally neutral act, with nothing inherently good or bad about it. Your statement is vacuous.

this is a thing of reality rather than abstract concepts. light is good because of what it does but it needs something to shine on otherwise it can't show itself.

Light doesn't do anything inherently good. It just exists.

that is just a law of reality. since God made reality we know him through reality by contemplation and we learn for ourselves that God is good.

Oh, reality is full of so much messed up crap you can't attribute to human creation. Have you looked at a lamprey? Or various other parasites, diseases. You can try to say those are punishments for the fall, but they're still things YHWH created, right? You must also recall that nearly all forms of enjoyment are viewed as sinful one way or another if you take the bible literally. Observing the world around me is not convincing, and even if I lived in an absolute utopia right now, that wouldn't negate the fact that YHWH has, as stated in the bible, destroyed entire cities just because it had a negative opinion of the people there. I wonder if, with the passages stating god is good removed, if a person reading the bible for the first time would ever conclude said being was good?

we find a richer reality and taste of it dully, both the cruder and the better parts of it. in experiencing various evil spirits and then experiencing good spirits I see that God is good.

Great for you, on a personal level, I suppose. Why you would ever think that would be convincing to anyone else is beyond me, though.

 

[durangodawood]

Let me ask this question, since many in this forum believe that God is evil: how do you prove that God is evil?

Since many in this forum believe that God is good: how do you prove that God is good?

 

[Noxot]

So... please explain the flood so the Christian god doesn't look horrible.

since you said that to me I decided to watch this video which explains it:

but since most can't be bothered to watch a 1+ hour video explaining parts of it I will put a few screenshots that partially explain in a condensed format.

Spoiler: concerning the symbols of the flood myth

 

[PsychoSarah]

since you said that to me I decided to watch this video which explains it:

but since most can't be bothered to watch a 1+ hour video explaining parts of it I will put a few screenshots that partially explain in a condensed format.

Spoiler: concerning the symbols of the flood myth

View attachment 175154
View attachment 175155

View attachment 175156

View attachment 175157

-_- well, when you view the story as entirely symbolic rather than a direct depiction of an event, then it no longer is YHWH literally wiping out nearly all life on the planet with a flood, now is it? However, the worst thing this deity does is punish people for not believing it exists and worshipping it, the former not even being a fully conscious choice. I know, because I have been seeking belief for 8 years, and have yet to attain it.

 

[quatona]

So we come back to the basic question of this thread: what is good, and what is evil? You see, in order to prove your judgments about God you'd first have to prove what good and evil are.

No, I don´t. I just have to explain to you what I mean when saying "good" and "bad", then compare your god concept to those standards, and look at the result.

Then you could apply them to God. That's why this question is so important, and that's why my answer is that we simply can't know what good and evil are: we need someone in a position to know what they are to tell us.

You are working from the premise that "good/evil" are non-human concepts out there that need to be understood. This premise isn´t shared and needs substantiation.

And the only one in that position is the Supreme Being himself.

Unfortunately, in order to determine/identify whether a certain being is supreme, you would first have to have criteria for good/evil, to begin with.
So you are at square one again.

 

[quatona]

I think you've missed the point of this thread Prove to me that the Christian God is evil based on the Flood.

Based on whose standards for good/evil do you want this to be proven?

 

[Noxot]

However, the worst thing this deity does is punish people for not believing it exists and worshipping it, the former not even being a fully conscious choice. I know, because I have been seeking belief for 8 years, and have yet to attain it.

the proper way to understand how God "punishes" people for not believing he exist is more of a "punishment of reality for not existing in accord with it". in my mind it seems that atheist don't have much place to go if they do not believe in a supreme infinite mind who is love. what I guess i'm trying to say is that atheist don't have any criteria for what is good other than themselves because they don't believe that they are in Gods image. so to me this would seem to leave a huge crack in how one would exist in reality, one that is so huge that if you really and deeply did not believe in God as he is, you would destroy and ruin everything because that is what the lack of God is since God is the criteria for all good and truthful things. so the outer belief systems are in a sense secondary in nature compared to who and how you are as a person.

the psychological aspects of the atheist who does not believe in eternal destiny boggles my mind because I don't see any value in this world if it is not significant. how do atheist cope with existing for no reason at all and what kind of person do they become because of such beliefs? no one should believe God exist just because they think they need some form of comfort from the hard facts of reality that atheist believe in.

but I think the atheist and the religious both have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to existing with God.

"worship" is a rather distorted concept because so many western religious people can't break out of the whole "God is a king and to be feared" thing. i honestly enjoy being happy and cheerful and thankful to God, worship has no sense of burden in it if the burden they have is to love God. people who feel the urge to help or love others quite naturally worships God though they might not know they do. the religious person has the advantage though because a belief in God makes everything else matter a lot more than it otherwise would. certainly there are still failings as human beings. i'm starting to notice more that when i'm evil inside myself or to others that it tends to mess me up pretty good inside. but then again atheist can still love more than religious people can, it is not only from the mind but the heart and God is there in their hearts, empowering them to love for God is love. it might seem very naive but there is nothing better than real love.



I think one of the best standards for what is good is this equation: love + wisdom

if you know what good or evil is you might be able to know what the other is as evil is a lack of good. evil is a burden. goodness a light load.

 

[Eudaimonist]

atheist don't have any criteria for what is good other than themselves because they don't believe that they are in Gods image. so to me this would seem to leave a huge crack in how one would exist in reality, one that is so huge that if you really and deeply did not believe in God as he is, you would destroy and ruin everything because that is what the lack of God is since God is the criteria for all good and truthful things.

That doesn't make much sense. If the criteria for atheists for what is good has something to do with human beings, then they have a criterion for goodness. They aren't lacking just because God isn't that criterion.

the psychological aspects of the atheist who does not believe in eternal destiny boggles my mind because I don't see any value in this world if it is not significant.

My life is significant -- to myself. It doesn't have to be significant to the universe or to "eternity". That strikes me as grandiose.

how do atheist cope with existing for no reason at all and what kind of person do they become because of such beliefs?

I don't exist for no reasons at all. I exist because my parents wanted a child, and we can trace those causes back in time.

But the explanation for my origin is irrelevant to me when it comes to my sense of purpose in life. My purpose is a naturally appropriate one, which is to flourish as a human individual. That is fully meaningful to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

what I guess i'm trying to say is that atheist don't have any criteria for what is good other than themselves because they don't believe that they are in Gods image.

And theists have no other criteria than themselves when ascribing moral notions to a God. So I guess you don´t get around subjectivity of your beliefs by postulating a deity.

the psychological aspects of the atheist who does not believe in eternal destiny boggles my mind because I don't see any value in this world if it is not significant.

But that´s you. Apparently you have different standards for "significance" than I do.

how do atheist cope with existing for no reason at all and what kind of person do they become because of such beliefs?

I am aware of the reasons why I exist, thank you.

no one should believe God exist just because they think they need some form of comfort from the hard facts of reality that atheist believe in.

I´m not under that risk because I don´t perceive the hard facts of reality as being discomforting in a metaphysical way.

 

[Noxot]

And theists have no other criteria than themselves when ascribing moral notions to a God. So I guess you don´t get around subjectivity of your beliefs by postulating a deity.

yes this would be true if in fact no God showed me anything.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

yes this would be true if in fact no God showed me anything.

What do you believe a god showed you?

 

[Achilles6129]

But I didn't say evil, I said horrible...

Drowning toddlers is, to me, horrible. Which is demonstrably true.

That's your opinion of good and evil. Apparently it's not God's. You still haven't proven anything, only stated an opinion.