Our built in disposition to sin

[Gary K]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is found all throughout Paul's writings. There are many more but I figured this was enough to demonstrate the frequency of his comments on the flesh. It's why sin cannot be overcome in our own power, Only the power of God can overcome it and enable us to obey God. It's why the disciples lives changed so dramatically after Pentacost. They went from a group of self centered men interested only in being number one in the kingdom to a group of men willing to give their lives for the gospel. Paul's conversion tells us the same story. We went from being a murderer to a martyr for God when he met Jesus.

There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin.

This explains why we find excuses to not obey God. To overcome this we must surrender ourselves to the HS like Paul did, daily. It takes a daily dying to self to succeed in the Christian life. This is where the battle of the Christian life takes place, We either make God number one on our priority list and ourselves last on that list or we continue to lose out on the joy of the successful Christian life.

1Corinthians 15: 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Jesus tells us:

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We must partake of the bread and water of life daily.

 

[daq]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

That is the teaching-doctrine of an old proverb that is denounced and forbidden in the Prophets.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-23 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

And the Torah teaches the same:

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

And the false proverb is again spoken against in the context of the Renewed Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:26-31 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The Testimony of the Meshiah teaches us how to die in the manner that is pleasing to the Father.

 

[Gary K]

That is the teaching-doctrine of an old proverb that is denounced and forbidden in the Prophets.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-23 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

And the Torah teaches the same:

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

And the false proverb is again spoken against in the context of the Renewed Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:26-31 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The Testimony of the Meshiah teaches us how to die in the manner that is pleasing to the Father.

Yeah. Paul was the inspired author of most of the NT and he teaches the opposite of the OT.

You get off some some wildly fantastic rabbit trails that do nothing but destroy faith in scripture and God. Now I understand why you behave the way you do.

This is my last comment to you on this subject.

 

[daq]

Yeah. Paul was the inspired author of most of the NT and he teaches the opposite of the OT.

You get off some some wildly fantastic rabbit trails that do nothing but destroy faith in scripture and God. Now I understand why you behave the way you do.

This is my last comment to you on this subject.

Posting scripture is destroying faith in scripture and Elohim?
No, but scripture does indeed destroy false doctrines.

I understand why you need to make everything personal and be so judgmental.

 

[fhansen]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is found all throughout Paul's writings. There are many more but I figured this was enough to demonstrate the frequency of his comments on the flesh. It's why sin cannot be overcome in our own power, Only the power of God can overcome it and enable us to obey God. It's why the disciples lives changed so dramatically after Pentacost. They went from a group of self centered men interested only in being number one in the kingdom to a group of men willing to give their lives for the gospel. Paul's conversion tells us the same story. We went from being a murderer to a martyr for God when he met Jesus.

There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin.

This explains why we find excuses to not obey God. To overcome this we must surrender ourselves to the HS like Paul did, daily. It takes a daily dying to self to succeed in the Christian life. This is where the battle of the Christian life takes place, We either make God number one on our priority list and ourselves last on that list or we continue to lose out on the joy of the successful Christian life.

1Corinthians 15: 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Jesus tells us:

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We must partake of the bread and water of life daily.

This is not the historic teaching of God's church. Man did not gain something at the Fall, as in a new nature; rather he lost something; he fell, from grace, from the goodness that's inherent in our being in union with Him. This is why the chief aspect of the state of original sin is the alienation from God that we're all born into. We lost the knowledge of God which essential to our possessing life.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

That's why Jesus came, to reveal the true face of the Father. When we see Jesus we see God and when we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus, we believe in, hope in, and love God. The more we know Him, the more we love Him. We're reconciled now, no longer alienated.

 

[Gary K]

This is not the historic teaching of God's church. Man did not gain something at the Fall, as in a new nature; rather he lost something; he fell, from grace, from the goodness that's inherent in our being in union with Him. This is why the chief aspect of the state of original sin is the alienation from God that we're all born into. We lost the knowledge of God which essential to our possessing life.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

That's why Jesus came, to reveal the true face of the Father. When we see Jesus we see God and when we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus, we believe in, hope in, and love God. The more we know Him, the more we love Him. We're reconciled now, no longer alienated.

Where have I ever said that we gained anything at the fall? I don't believe that in the least. My post ought to tell you that. We lost our ability to obey God at the fall of Adam and Eve. I don't know how you can read my post and say humanity gained anything at the fall. Unless, that is, you think a subtraction of our ability to obey God is a plus.

 

[fhansen]

Where have I ever said that we gained anything at the fall? I don't believe that in the least. My post ought to tell you that. We lost our ability to obey God at the fall of Adam and Eve. I don't know how you can read my post and say humanity gained anything at the fall. Unless, that is, you think a subtraction of our ability to obey God is a plus.

My apologies if I misunderstood you. There's a common understanding that man or human nature changed in some fundamental way, gaining a new "sin nature" at the Fall. So it's important IMO to emphasize that while sin flourished after the Fall, the reason was due to what man lost, subjugation to God, not what became added to him.

 

[Gary K]

My apologies if I misunderstood you. There's a common understanding that man or human nature changed in some fundamental way, gaining a new "sin nature" at the Fall. So it's important IMO to emphasize that while sin flourished after the Fall, the reason was due to what man lost, subjugation to God, not what became added to him.

That's OK. I think you mistook daq's post for one of mine. He's the one saying the OT teaches just the opposite of what Paul taught.

 

[honey badger]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is found all throughout Paul's writings. There are many more but I figured this was enough to demonstrate the frequency of his comments on the flesh. It's why sin cannot be overcome in our own power, Only the power of God can overcome it and enable us to obey God. It's why the disciples lives changed so dramatically after Pentacost. They went from a group of self centered men interested only in being number one in the kingdom to a group of men willing to give their lives for the gospel. Paul's conversion tells us the same story. We went from being a murderer to a martyr for God when he met Jesus.

There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin.

This explains why we find excuses to not obey God. To overcome this we must surrender ourselves to the HS like Paul did, daily. It takes a daily dying to self to succeed in the Christian life. This is where the battle of the Christian life takes place, We either make God number one on our priority list and ourselves last on that list or we continue to lose out on the joy of the successful Christian life.

1Corinthians 15: 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Jesus tells us:

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We must partake of the bread and water of life daily.

how far is sin from baptism ... or why would God choose an Ishmael or Israel a Dan or Jesus a Judas ...

 

[Gary K]

how far is sin from baptism ... or why would God choose an Ishmael or Israel a Dan or Jesus a Judas ...

Jesus is how far the distance is between as in and baptism.

Ishmael was a product of Hagar and Abraham which was sinful and God is so just and honest He honored His promise of being a father of many nations. That the union between Abraham and Hagar was sinful is demonstrated in the history between Israel and the Arabs.

Judas is a demonstration of what can happen when we hang onto our sins in the presence of Jesus.

 

[daq]

That's OK. I think you mistook daq's post for one of mine. He's the one saying the OT teaches just the opposite of what Paul taught.

No, that is not true. Paul states that he believes all things written in the Torah and the Prophets, (Acts 24:14), and therefore he is not teaching against the Prophets which I quoted, and therefore it is you who does not believe his teachings because you do not correctly understand them. You have reversed what I believe: I believe Paul is in perfect agreement with all things written in the Torah and the Prophets. He believed them while you set aside whatever you do not wish to incorporate into your doctrines and beliefs. Please stop leveling false accusations.

 

[honey badger]

Jesus is how far the distance is between as in and baptism.

Ishmael was a product of Hagar and Abraham which was sinful and God is so just and honest He honored His promise of being a father of many nations. That the union between Abraham and Hagar was sinful is demonstrated in the history between Israel and the Arabs.

Judas is a demonstration of what can happen when we hang onto our sins in the presence of Jesus.

but why was this as something chosen ...

 

[Gary K]

but why was this as something chosen ...

I don't understand your question. What do mean by "this"?

 

[honey badger]

I don't understand your question. What do mean by "this"?

to put it another way ... how did the serpent enter into the garden ?

 

[Gary K]

to put it another way ... how did the serpent enter into the garden ?

I have no idea. I would imagine God created a lot of snakes. Was there only one in the entire earth? I haven't a clue.

If you're trying to suggest God created evil I completely reject that concept.

 

[honey badger]

I have no idea. I would imagine God created a lot of snakes. Was there only one in the entire earth? I haven't a clue.

If you're trying to suggest God created evil I completely reject that concept.

ok ... but then you will never understand why Jesus chose a Judas ...

 

[Gary K]

ok ... but then you will never understand why Jesus chose a Judas ...

Actually I do. Judas is our example of how we can be in close proximity to Jesus and still never surrender our hearts to Him so He can save us. If we hang onto our sins like Judas his greed Jesus can not save us.

 

[honey badger]

Actually I do. Judas is our example of how we can be in close proximity to Jesus and still never surrender our hearts to Him so He can save us. If we hang onto our sins like Judas his greed Jesus can not save us.

without a Judas Jesus would not have gone to his cross ...

 

[Gary K]

without a Judas Jesus would not have gone to his crosss ...

So? Jesus wasn't responsible for that.

James 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[honey badger]

So? Jesus wasn't responsible for that.

James 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

he chose him ...