Old Earth Creationism

[Job 33:6]

Your making a lot of false accusations here because I never said they had to eat from the tree of life to continue to live I gave a hypothetical answer that supports the notion that Adam could’ve needed to eat from the tree of life to keep from dying. What your commentators are telling you is not biblical. They’re teaching that death came into the world before the fall which is contradictory to Romans 5. Your theology or rather someone else’s theology that you’ve bought into is making statements that are not only unsupported by the scriptures but is also contradictory to them. The Bible doesn’t tell us whether life was immortal or not before the fall. Your commentators say it wasn’t but that’s not supported by the scriptures, as I pointed out your commentator made several assumptions and errors in his interpretations.

So you think that the tree of life could have kept animals alive even if they didn't eat from it?

 

[Job 33:6]

God’s statement in Genesis 3:22 was made after Adam’s fall

There is no reason, based on the text, to believe that the tree of life was anything other than the tree of life before or after the fall. This is just special pleading.

In your previous statement you said that it would be pointless for God to place the tree of life in the garden if everything was already immortal,

Thats correct. Especially because the Bible explicitly describes it as a tree that grants life, forever.

but it would be equally pointless to put the tree of knowledge in the garden if God didn’t intend for man to eat from it.

Not true, God gave mankind a choice.

We don’t know why God put either of those trees in the garden, we only know for certain that He did. The why is irrelevant. I don’t understand why you’re trying so hard to imply that my position is that everything was immortal, I never said that. The only thing I’ve said on that subject is that we don’t know and we have no way of knowing.

Youre saying that you believe there was no death before the fall, which means that you believe they were immortal.

So, riddle me this, if you believe that the animals of the garden were mortal, then why wouldn't they have died? Not because of sustenance from the tree of life according to your last post. So what would have prevented them from dying, as mortal things do?

Let me guess "you don't know". But of course we do know. Listen to the Psalmist in his poetic reference of creation:

Psalm 104​

Day 1, God creates light:

1 Praise the Lord, my soul.
Lord my God, you are very great;
you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
2 The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;
he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Day 2, God controls the seasons and separates water from water:

3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,[a]
flames of fire his servants.
5 He set the earth on its foundations;
it can never be moved.
6 You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.

Day 3, God reveals dry land:

7 But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
8 they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth.
10 He makes springs pour water into the ravines;
it flows between the mountains.
11 They give water to all the beasts of the field;
the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 The birds of the sky nest by the waters;
they sing among the branches.
13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;
the land is satisfied by the fruit of his work.
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
16 The trees of the Lord are well watered,
the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
17 There the birds make their nests;
the stork has its home in the junipers.
18 The high mountains belong to the wild goats;
the crags are a refuge for the hyrax.

God sets the stars, sun and moon for seasons:

19 He made the moon to mark the seasons,
and the sun knows when to go down.

20 You bring darkness, it becomes night,
and all the beasts of the forest prowl.

And as the Psalmist notes:
The young lions roar after their prey, And seek their food from God. - Psalm 104:21

Did the Psalmist forget that animal predation was a sin? or a product of the fall, as the psalmist reflects on creation? No, of course not. the Psalmist doesnt even bother considering the immortality of animals, but simply references God as being the giver of their prey.

Animals died before the fall:

 

[FaithT]

Yeah I don’t think that’s the actual meaning of that verse. I doubt it means that He won’t remember our sins, it likely means He won’t look back on them.

I agree

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you think that the tree of life could have kept animals alive even if they didn't eat from it?

Why does this matter?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Youre saying that you believe there was no death before the fall, which means that you believe they were immortal.

Wrong, I can say that no one has ever died in my house, does that mean that everyone in my house is immortal?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So, riddle me this, if you believe that the animals of the garden were mortal, then why wouldn't they have died?

We don’t know how long Adam lived in the garden before the fall. All we know is that it was less than 130 years.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did the Psalmist forget that animal predation was a sin? or a product of the fall, as the psalmist reflects on creation? No, of course not. the Psalmist doesnt even bother considering the immortality of animals, but simply references God as being the giver of their prey.

Obviously that passage is not exclusively referring to events that took place before the fall unless you believe that Adam built ships before he was 130 years old and people were sinners before anyone sinned.

”There the ships move along, And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”Let sinners be consumed from the earth And let the wicked be no more. Bless the Lord, O my soul. Praise the Lord!“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Job 33:6]

Obviously that passage is not exclusively referring to events that took place before the fall unless you believe that Adam built ships before he was 130 years old and people were sinners before anyone sinned.

”There the ships move along, And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”Let sinners be consumed from the earth And let the wicked be no more. Bless the Lord, O my soul. Praise the Lord!“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You've missed the obvious issue here that predation being something sinful or a part of the fall, was completely missed by the Psalmist and in fact, the Psalmist says the opposite, that the Lord provides their prey, as if it is a beautiful thing.

If you were talking about creation in a poem, and talking about Genesis throughout 99% of the poem, would you be so confused as to glorify predation as God's provisions?

It's as if the psalmist completely forgot that predation was a bad thing and confused it for a good thing while talking about Genesis.

No death before the fall is just so obviously wrong.

 

[Job 33:6]

We don’t know how long Adam lived in the garden before the fall. All we know is that it was less than 130 years.

You just have empty assumptions that make no theological sense. That's really what this boils down to.

God made animals mortal and none had died, even though they could have died. However, the only reason none had died is because the fall happened sooner than any animal would die. The elephant had to wait an extra 24-hours before stepping on an ant because the fall had not yet occurred.

This is just theology and hermeneutics gone wrong.

 

[Job 33:6]

I never said they had to eat from the tree of life to continue to live I gave a hypothetical answer that supports the notion that Adam could’ve needed to eat from the tree of life to keep from dying.

And here, animals did not die, not because of the tree of life preserving their life. But rather none died simply on the basis that the fall happened early enough that none had yet died, though they were mortal.

An animal is getting old, but the fall thankfully happened before that animal died. A bug got blown into the water, but the fall happened before it could drown. An elephant was walking around the garden, but the fall happened before it's foot could squash an ant etc.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you were talking about creation in a poem, and talking about Genesis throughout 99% of the poem, would you be so confused as to glorify predation as God's provisions?

The statement is glorifying God’s might and power to create, not glorifying the lion’s actions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You just have empty assumptions that make no theological sense. That's really what this boils down to.

God made animals mortal and none had died, even though they could have died. However, the only reason none had died is because the fall happened sooner than any animal would die. The elephant had to wait an extra 24-hours before stepping on an ant because the fall had not yet occurred.

This is just theology and hermeneutics gone wrong.

What assumptions have I made? Please do elaborate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And here, animals did not die, not because of the tree of life preserving their life. But rather none died simply on the basis that the fall happened early enough that none had yet died, though they were mortal.

An animal is getting old, but the fall thankfully happened before that animal died. A bug got blown into the water, but the fall happened before it could drown. An elephant was walking around the garden, but the fall happened before it's foot could squash an ant etc.

So you’re assuming these things happened but the Bible doesn’t actually tell us these things happened. The problem with your assumption is that it would mandate that death had already came into the world before Adam sinned which is contractor what the bible actually tells us.

 

[Job 33:6]

So you’re assuming these things happened but the Bible doesn’t actually tell us these things happened. The problem with your assumption is that it would mandate that death had already came into the world before Adam sinned which is contractor what the bible actually tells us.

That's the thing, the Bible doesn't actually say that there's no death before the fall. It only says otherwise, such as Psalm 104:21.

 

[Job 33:6]

The statement is glorifying God’s might and power to create, not glorifying the lion’s actions.

It's Glorifying God's provisions, that is, prey for the lions.

It's as if you think the psalmist, when writing about creation and Genesis, just so happened to forget that predation before the fall was a bad thing, and mysteriously failed to comment on it. And not only failed to mention that there was no predation before the fall, but then went in the opposite direction praising the Lord who provides prey to lions, Psalm 104:21.

Your positions makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Job 33:6]

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104:1‭-‬24‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

Day 1:
[1] Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, you are very great. You are clothed with honor and majesty, [2] wrapped in light as with a garment. You stretch out the heavens like a tent;

Day 2:
[3] you set the beams of your chambers on the waters; you make the clouds your chariot; you ride on the wings of the wind; [4] you make the winds your messengers, fire and flame your ministers. [5] You set the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never be shaken.

Day 3:
[6] You cover it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. [7] At your rebuke they flee; at the sound of your thunder they take to flight. [8] They rose up to the mountains, ran down to the valleys, to the place that you appointed for them. [9] You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. [10] You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills, [11] giving drink to every wild animal; the wild asses quench their thirst. [12] By the streams the birds of the air have their habitation; they sing among the branches. [13] From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. [14] You cause the grass to grow for the cattle and plants for people to cultivate, to bring forth food from the earth [15] and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine and bread to strengthen the human heart. [16] The trees of the field are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted. [17] In them the birds build their nests; the stork has its home in the fir trees. [18] The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the coneys.

Day 4:
[19] You have made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. [20] You make darkness, and it is night, when all the animals of the forest come creeping out. [21] The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. [22] When the sun rises, they withdraw and lie down in their dens. [23] People go out to their work and to their labor until the evening.

[24] O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.

Just look at this text.

The psalmist is praising the Father for His works in respect to creation. And mysteriously, the psalmist praises the Lord for providing lions their prey.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's the thing, the Bible doesn't actually say that there's no death before the fall. It only says otherwise, such as Psalm 104:21.

I’ve already proven that Psalms 104 is not exclusive about things that took place before the fall unless you believe that Adam built ships before the fall and there were sinners before Adam sinned. You completely ignore these facts.

”There the ships move along, And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”Let sinners be consumed from the earth And let the wicked be no more. Bless the Lord, O my soul. Praise the Lord!“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's Glorifying God's provisions, that is, prey for the lions.

It's as if you think the psalmist, when writing about creation and Genesis, just so happened to forget that predation before the fall was a bad thing, and mysteriously failed to comment on it. And not only failed to mention that there was no predation before the fall, but then went in the opposite direction praising the Lord who provides prey to lions, Psalm 104:21.

Your positions makes absolutely no sense.

Yes but it’s not before the fall because that Psalm also mentions ships traveling the sea and sinners and wicked people. There were no sinners or wicked people before the fall. How is this not astronomically obvious to you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭104:1‭-‬24‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬

Day 1:
[1] Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, you are very great. You are clothed with honor and majesty, [2] wrapped in light as with a garment. You stretch out the heavens like a tent;

Day 2:
[3] you set the beams of your chambers on the waters; you make the clouds your chariot; you ride on the wings of the wind; [4] you make the winds your messengers, fire and flame your ministers. [5] You set the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never be shaken.

Day 3:
[6] You cover it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. [7] At your rebuke they flee; at the sound of your thunder they take to flight. [8] They rose up to the mountains, ran down to the valleys, to the place that you appointed for them. [9] You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. [10] You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills, [11] giving drink to every wild animal; the wild asses quench their thirst. [12] By the streams the birds of the air have their habitation; they sing among the branches. [13] From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. [14] You cause the grass to grow for the cattle and plants for people to cultivate, to bring forth food from the earth [15] and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine and bread to strengthen the human heart. [16] The trees of the field are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted. [17] In them the birds build their nests; the stork has its home in the fir trees. [18] The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the coneys.

Day 4:
[19] You have made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. [20] You make darkness, and it is night, when all the animals of the forest come creeping out. [21] The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. [22] When the sun rises, they withdraw and lie down in their dens. [23] People go out to their work and to their labor until the evening.

[24] O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.

Just look at this text.

The psalmist is praising the Father for His works in respect to creation. And mysteriously, the psalmist praises the Lord for providing lions their prey.

He also mentions ships traveling the seas and sinners and wicked people. How many sinners and wicked people were there before Adam committed THE FIRST SIN?!! I brought this to your attention yesterday in the very post you’re replying to and you’re completely ignoring these verses.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I'm not quite sure what I believe about the days of Genesis. I have seen many arguments for the old earth perspective that the six days of the creation week are not meant to be literal 24 hour days, but rather long periods of time.

I do find old earth creationism compelling on the surface, but I find some difficulties in reconciling it with Scripture.

For example, Exodus 20:11 seems to reinforce the young earth view that it actually was six literal days.

I feel like if we were not meant to take the Creation Week as six 24 hour days, then I don't think it would have been reiterated in the 10 Commandments.

What are your thoughts?

I've gotten to the place where whenever the bible talks about the early earth or ages to come or the makeup of the universe, I mentally tack on the phrase, "as far as we're concerned".
I see the planet as a canvas that has had multiple paintings put on it, each preceded by a coat of whitewash. And just as with a painting where you can carefully peal back the existing one and it's whitewash layer to see earlier paintings, you can do the same with the earth and see remnants of earlier ages. e.g. dinosaurs and OOP artifacts.

So, I believe that, as far as we're concerned, the earth is 6000 years old. That is, the age of man is that old. But who knows how many dozens or hundreds of ages came before it. Further, according to the bible there will be a new age with a new jerusalem and, as far as we're concerned, that will be the last age. But just as with the beginning, does the bible really only address a few ages of man and will be preceded as well as followed by many hundreds of other ages.

And then we get into the concept of the heavens not being a big black blanket with twinkly lights on it, but quadrillions of galaxies. So, as far as we're concerned, this big space ship we occupy is "it". but there may be quintillions of other planets with sentient creatures on them that have their own "bibles" and as far as they are concerned, their home world is "it".

God is a lot bigger than a lot of us see him. There is so much out there in space and time that our bibles simply don't address, because that is not the story they are designed to convey. We are God's imagers for THIS planet, and that is what it addresses: The place where we are his agents, and how we are to do our jobs.