Of Course I Believe in Prosperity, so do you

[BondiHarry]

We just need to be wise enough to seek prosperity as God views it and not as carnal man views it.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Maybe the standards within the secular world within my country outshine that of the celebrity leadership of the wof and prosperity movements in your part of the world as I am well aware of the times when both company staff and board members have been publicly sanctioned and sacked for making improper comments in the public forum.

So do I need to work for CNN, hardly, as all I am doing is applying the mere basic social and moral standards of the secular world (let alone with that of the Word of God) which in my view tends to be a beacon of righteousness when compared to the frequent antics of the celebrity leaders of the wof and prosperity movements.

The previous senior minster of my church used to get himself into trouble for saying some strange things at times which were always meant in humour; he frequently took a few swipes from numerous congregational members about some of his thoughtless comments and as for the Monday morning staff meeting he was apparently frequently taken to task.
If he had of made any comment along the lines of Dollars wicked statement, then I suspect that he wouldn’t have even bothered turning up for work the next day as no one would have tolerated such foul behaviour from a senior leader.

“Exploiting a clip”....how these celebrities must chuckle amongst themselves with what they are allowed to get away with.

This is simply another heresy that comes from within the extreme elements of the wof movement.

You can't debate with others who want to respond to with mess. Now tithing and it relation to covenant is heresy... you waste of time to debate with. Next you'll be saying tithing isn't mainstream. I know 100% that mainstream Christianity as a whole believe in tithing. Most may not know the importance of it, like most bible principles, but they know it is biblical. That is a stance for majority of all protestant groups.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Well pointed out

The Lord Jesus Christ is our 'covenant connector'.

That would depend on what you are talking about. Jesus applies to everything that is of God. He is the reason we are in Covenant with God. However, that alone will not manifest the promises of God in your life. Thats just religious talk. Sounds good and spiritual, but won't get your bills paid.

It is one thing to have a relationship with Jesus and another to do the teachings of Jesus.

Example (Lk. 13:10-17): The woman bowed toegether and couldn't lift herself. She was promised healing under the Blood Covenant, but that alone didn't result in her being in health. Jesus said, "ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound..., be loosed from this bond..." That is covenant language. Notice that her being in covenet alone didn't make her well.

You have a Covenant that promises prosperity. If you violate the terms of it, you can be disconnected from the blessing. Malachi 3:8-19 shows this. Tithing is what connects you to God's power to help you financially.

Heresey is actually teaching that tithing isn't scriptual and God wants you poor.

God's promises are not automatic, if they were we'd all be saved.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Creflo Dollar was talking rubbish and everyone here will know he was talking rubbish. For those members into hyper positive type teaching it can be hard to admit though, so we should be gracious!

He was being sarcastic and kidding on folks who don't tithe. Preachers can have a good laugh if they want. I think people are being dishonest and grabbing for staws if they really think he was being literal.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Thank God for what he is doing in the earth. The world sytstem is crushed by greed. His system still works. You can still thrive in the midst of this bad economy.

 

[dkbwarrior]

He was being sarcastic and kidding on folks who don't tithe. Preachers can have a good laugh if they want. I think people are being dishonest and grabbing for staws if they really think he was being literal.

Exactly the point.

I tell my kids I need to duct tape them to the front bumber on the way home when they are fighting in the store. Its hyperbole, and is good for making a point. This kind of ciritiscism isn't debate, it is ignorance being spouted to justify sarcasm and scorn. It isn't a legitimate argument at all. It does show the intent of the critics though, and displays the bankruptcy of their argument.

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

He was being sarcastic and kidding on folks who don't tithe. Preachers can have a good laugh if they want. I think people are being dishonest and grabbing for staws if they really think he was being literal.

Not true. You are the one being dishonest.

Creflo said:

we'd shoot them all dead. And then we’d take them out the side door there, have a big hole, bury them, and then go ahead and have church, and have the anointing.

Aren't you glad we are under the blood of Jesus. If we were not under the blood of Jesus I would certainly try it. Folks this is a serious thing. If you take time to tithe the tithe correctly, it’s impossible to go to Hell.


peace,
Simon

 

[MinJeremiah]

Not true. You are the one being dishonest.

Creflo said:

we'd shoot them all dead. And then we’d take them out the side door there, have a big hole, bury them, and then go ahead and have church, and have the anointing.

Aren't you glad we are under the blood of Jesus. If we were not under the blood of Jesus I would certainly try it. Folks this is a serious thing. If you take time to tithe the tithe correctly, it’s impossible to go to Hell.


peace,
Simon

He is talking about how it was under the Old Covenant if it was todays time. He is being funny, but trying to convey how serious tithing was before grace. DUDE CUT IT OUT!!! Who are you fooling?

 

[Simon Peter]

He is talking about how it was under the Old Covenant if it was todays time. He is being funny, but trying to convey how serious tithing was before grace. DUDE CUT IT OUT!!! Who are you fooling?

Of course Creflo wasn't actually telling people to go home get their UZIs, come back to church and shoot people.

Which is why I 'bolded':

If we were not under the blood of Jesus I would certainly try it.

He believes that under the law, people who don't tithe should be executed. (But he said they are not under the law)

He implied that people who don't tithe interfere with the 'annointing'.
He said that people in his church who don't tithe could go to Hell.

This was not one big joke. Which is why Creflo said:

Folks this is a serious thing.

He said what he said.

What on earth does he mean by tithe anyway? The only biblical laws on tithing were:

1. Levitical Tithe (given to Levites around Israel as they had no inheritance)
2. Festival Tithe (spent on one's own family)
3. Poor Tithe (every third year for the poor who came to your home)


The Levitical Tithe was never on your income, it was a tenth of the increase of crops, fruits and herds only.


peace,
Simon

 

[MinJeremiah]

Of course Creflo wasn't actually telling people to go home get their UZIs, come back to church and shoot people.

Which is why I 'bolded':

If we were not under the blood of Jesus I would certainly try it.

He believes that under the law, people who don't tithe should be executed. (But he said they are not under the law)

He implied that people who don't tithe interfere with the 'annointing'.
He said that people in his church who don't tithe could go to Hell.

This was not one big joke. Which is why Creflo said:

Folks this is a serious thing.

He said what he said.

What on earth does he mean by tithe anyway? The only biblical laws on tithing were:

1. Levitical Tithe (given to Levites around Israel as they had no inheritance)
2. Festival Tithe (spent on one's own family)
3. Poor Tithe (every third year for the poor who came to your home)


The Levitical Tithe was never on your income, it was a tenth of the increase of crops, fruits and herds only.


peace,
Simon

Ummm tithing wasn't just done under the law. Also they didn't have money like we do. They had a agrarian economy. Therefore that is how they tithed in the beginning.

Do you want to debate now on if tithing should be don't with cash, gold, checks, and credit cards?

You must not be a tither? Hmmmmm, no wonder. Usually those who don't believe in prosperity steal from God also. Not saying you do, but that is how it usually is.

 

[BondiHarry]

Ummm tithing wasn't just done under the law. Also they didn't have money like we do. They had a agrarian economy. Therefore that is how they tithed in the beginning.

Do you want to debate now on if tithing should be don't with cash, gold, checks, and credit cards?

You must not be a tither? Hmmmmm, no wonder. Usually those who don't believe in prosperity steal from God also. Not saying you do, but that is how it usually is.

Are we still under the law that if you don't tithe 10% of your increase you are stealing from God? Methinks 2 Corinthians 9:7 applies here: "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." If we are to encourage giving let us turn to the promises of God that "He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully" in the preceding verse.

 

[Faulty]

Ummm tithing wasn't just done under the law. Also they didn't have money like we do. They had a agrarian economy. Therefore that is how they tithed in the beginning.

Do you want to debate now on if tithing should be don't with cash, gold, checks, and credit cards?

You must not be a tither? Hmmmmm, no wonder. Usually those who don't believe in prosperity steal from God also. Not saying you do, but that is how it usually is.

You may want to consider educating yourself on tithing.

A good place to start: http://www.truthforfree.com/files/PDF/REK-Tithing3.pdf

 

[Biblicist]

You can't debate with others who want to respond to with mess. Now tithing and it relation to covenant is heresy... you waste of time to debate with. [Bold added] Next you'll be saying tithing isn't mainstream. I know 100% that mainstream Christianity as a whole believe in tithing. Most may not know the importance of it, like most bible principles, but they know it is biblical. That is a stance for majority of all protestant groups.

The part of your post which I have marked in bold certainly tells me a lot!

One of the struggles with this topic and with relating to some of the wof posters on this forum is that some have admitted to having a limited amount of knowledge regarding mainstream thought and theology. This first came about with SP’s amazing admission that he has only ever encountered about five people who have been critical of both the wof and prosperity gospels and dkbwarrior even stated that he essentially argues not against the well known and common accepted criticisms of these movements by both mainstream Pentecostals and charismatics but merely with how he perceives how counter-arguments are being presented by those from within this forum.

Then there’s your own replies which can be a little frustrating at times as you only seem to respond to Biblical concepts from within the limited and inimitable framework of the wof/prosperity movements which one would hardly ever call theology; this is certainly not an uncommon situation and it may very well be the norm which is why it seems (at least to my knowledge) that these movements have been unable to provide the Body with any Theologians let alone scholars.

You can't debate with others who want to respond to with mess.

I guess that you are not really trying to say that I struggle to debate with people who only want to use mess so you might have to explain this sentence – though I admit that in this sense that it can be a struggle.

Next you'll be saying tithing isn't mainstream. I know 100% that mainstream Christianity as a whole believe in tithing. Most may not know the importance of it, like most bible principles, but they know it is biblical. That is a stance for majority of all protestant groups.

Here’s why I began my post as I did in that it seems that you are unaware that mainstream Pentecostals/Charismatics and Evangelicals certainly view tithing as being a responsible part of honouring God but we don’t use this principle to manipulate the masses or maybe the gullible who feel that they can in some way bribe God to fork out material wealth and unrealistic healings.

So when mainstream believers critique your movement for promoting the heretical notion that tithing is some weird form of covenant connector then this is what we mean. Most seasoned believers who have a reasonable grasp of Biblical theology will approach this forum in this manner and not from within the intrinsic problematic mindset of a forum such as this.

 

[Biblicist]

Dkbwarrior #213
Originally Posted by Biblicist
it can seem at times that their main argument is that we (and the Full Gospel theologians) are essentially a ‘hate-filled’ group who spend our time drinking hator-ade.

Your reply:
That is pretty funny; or at least, it would be if it wasn't so true.

I raised the point earlier in this topic that we often hear the ‘hate-card’ being thrown around by members of the wof and prosperity movements which is much the same language that is employed by the homosexual and humanist lobbies – with which you steadfastly denied that you do.

And here we have you unequivocally saying that this IS YOUR position, you really can’t have it both ways but at least you are now acknowledging this. I guess that as much the same type of language is frequently employed by the celebrity propagators of these movements then we should not be surprised that the same type of language is also employed by its rank and file members.

Originally Posted by Biblicist
Interesting comment! It goes to show that are even times when the unsaved media can recognise wickedness just as well as a believer can – well maybe a bit better than some woffers of course.

While where on this track, how are we supposed to show ‘respect’ for evil when the Scriptures plainly tell us to show disrespect and that we are to steadfastly stand up against evil when it occurs within the Body.

Your reply:

Even if you truly believe that they are in it for the wrong reasons, this should be your response:
15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
-Philippians 1:15-18

These are certainly important Biblical guidelines but they need to have application otherwise this just remains as theory. As Paul severely admonished the Corinthians for not expelling the wicked member from within their midst, then I think it is more than reasonable to counter the heresies and countless other moral and ethical abuses that are committed by the numerous wof and prosperity celebrities by advising the less informed and experienced believers to keep them at arms distance and to not provide them with any support.

After all, the Scriptures strenuously teaches us that we are to strongly critique and criticise any wickedness that occurs within the Body and to immediately deal with it when it comes to our attention and particularly when it negatively affects the members of the Body. As these various celebrities spread their wares across numerous broad spectrum media then the Body is compelled to combat their wickedness by countering it with the Word of God – even if we really don’t want to get involved in the cess pools that they create, what choice do we have if we truly love the Body of Christ.

Context and intent must be applied before using a persons words against them. Otherwise, you are just playing a game of gotcha. And such a game is not worthy of my time or effort. For that matter, it should be beneath the dignity of any Christian to engage in such behavior to begin with. People who do so should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

As I have mentioned in an earlier post, Dollars comments were plain enough and we all knew that he was serious when he spoke these wicked words. Even the secular world would in most part not tolerate such evil when it is posted by their employees and even executive officers which is regularly observed by how many organisations will immediately sack even senior executives when it occurs.

One thing that I am convinced of is that in most part, the secular business world seems to have a higher standard when it comes to ethics and accountability than does the senior celebrity element of the wof and prosperity movements.

 

[Simon Peter]

Ummm tithing wasn't just done under the law.

I can think of two instances of this in the Bible.

1. Abram:

Abram didn't 'tithe' according to any Biblical statute, he just gave one tenth of the spoils of war, of something that was not his, to a Priest, and nine tenths to the King of Sodom!

Abram did not give a tenth of anything of his own.
Not a tenth of his income.
Not a tenth of his flocks and herds.
Not a tenth of his increase.
Not a tenth of his firstborn animals.

If - in any way - it was a 'tithe to the Lord', it was a very limited free will offering.
Nowhere did God request this of Abram.

Do you give 9 tenths to the local worldly King based on this scripture?


2. Jacob

Jacob made a conditional vow to God, that he would give God a tenth as long as God blessed him in specific ways.
I don't think there is even a Biblical record of Jacob keeping his vow? But he probably did.

20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear
21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God
22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."
Genesis 28:20-22 NIV

Also they didn't have money like we do. They had a agrarian economy. Therefore that is how they tithed in the beginning.

Do you want to debate now on if tithing should be don't with cash, gold, checks, and credit cards?

Sure.

The tithes (according to the law) had to be paid in very specific ways.
They did have money (coins) like we do now.

The Levitical Tithe was never on your income, it was a tenth of the increase of crops, fruits and herds only. You were not allowed to exchange this tithe for money.

The Levitical Tithe was NOT taken to the temple, it was given to Levites who lived and worked as farmers/herders around Israel. They were NOT given the tithe because they worked in the temple - they each worked in the temple only a few days a year – they were given the tithe because they had no inheritance in the land of Israel.

There was no tithing during the 40 years in the wilderness, because the tithe was for Levites who had no inheritance in Israel. In fact Duet 12:19 suggests the Levitical Tithe is only for when you live in Israel.

You must not be a tither? Hmmmmm, no wonder. Usually those who don't believe in prosperity steal from God also. Not saying you do, but that is how it usually is.

You are right, I am not a tither. I am a giver. The very best gifts I give to God is when I give to the poor. God wants generosity and compassion for the poor, for us to love our neighbour, not the church building fund.

I have often supported my local church, but under no Biblical obligation whatsoever. Church money is largely wasted and misspent, and I don’t think God is very impressed by gifts to the church.


peace,
Simon

 

[MinJeremiah]

Are we still under the law that if you don't tithe 10% of your increase you are stealing from God? Methinks 2 Corinthians 9:7 applies here: "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." If we are to encourage giving let us turn to the promises of God that "He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully" in the preceding verse.

That isn't tithing. That is offering. There are different rules and promises that go with each type of givng. The tithe is a certain amount: 10% right off top.

 

[MinJeremiah]

You may want to consider educating yourself on tithing.

A good place to start: http://www.truthforfree.com/files/PDF/REK-Tithing3.pdf

I am well versed in it. Thank u.

 

[MinJeremiah]

I can think of two instances of this in the Bible.

1. Abram:

Abram didn't 'tithe' according to any Biblical statute, he just gave one tenth of the spoils of war, of something that was not his, to a Priest, and nine tenths to the King of Sodom!

Abram did not give a tenth of anything of his own.
Not a tenth of his income.
Not a tenth of his flocks and herds.
Not a tenth of his increase.
Not a tenth of his firstborn animals.

If - in any way - it was a 'tithe to the Lord', it was a very limited free will offering.
Nowhere did God request this of Abram.

Do you give 9 tenths to the local worldly King based on this scripture?


2. Jacob

Jacob made a conditional vow to God, that he would give God a tenth as long as God blessed him in specific ways.
I don't think there is even a Biblical record of Jacob keeping his vow? But he probably did.

20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear
21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God
22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."
Genesis 28:20-22 NIV




Sure.

The tithes (according to the law) had to be paid in very specific ways.
They did have money (coins) like we do now.

The Levitical Tithe was never on your income, it was a tenth of the increase of crops, fruits and herds only. You were not allowed to exchange this tithe for money.

The Levitical Tithe was NOT taken to the temple, it was given to Levites who lived and worked as farmers/herders around Israel. They were NOT given the tithe because they worked in the temple - they each worked in the temple only a few days a year – they were given the tithe because they had no inheritance in the land of Israel.

There was no tithing during the 40 years in the wilderness, because the tithe was for Levites who had no inheritance in Israel. In fact Duet 12:19 suggests the Levitical Tithe is only for when you live in Israel.




You are right, I am not a tither. I am a giver. The very best gifts I give to God is when I give to the poor. God wants generosity and compassion for the poor, for us to love our neighbour, not the church building fund.

I have often supported my local church, but under no Biblical obligation whatsoever. Church money is largely wasted and misspent, and I don’t think God is very impressed by gifts to the church.


peace,
Simon

Wow you think its ok to rob God. Okay. God doesnt accept offering any way you feel He should get it. He doesn't have problem rejecting offerings. What you have said reminds me of Cain and his brother Abel.

You are biblical obligation to support your church and ministry gifts. You sound very rebellious (not saying you are, just wondering if you are). Do you go to church?

 

[MinJeremiah]

Can't find the post, but someone said something about "unrealistic healing."

Only on CF do people who are full gospel, charismatic, pentecostal make crazy statements like that.

Now healing isn't even our to claim. Interesting. You need the Word of Faith. you need to good bible teaching.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Thank god we arfe not loosing. We are winning. We are winning for God's glory. Over a hundred years ago they said the slaves are now free. Some are still yelling they aren't free and the President is black. Jesus ratified the New Covenant is his blood and gave us exceeding great and precious promises; folks still don't know they are free. The choose to be slaves.