: Native American Jews: What do Messianics Think of Torah in the New World?

[Gxg (G²)]

Shalom..

Came across this and it seemed fascinating, in light of how the Jews were said to have literally be scattered all over the world. For there have been some of the mindset that the Jews and the Native Americans are intrically linked, both in their dialect and their customs.

For more info, one can go online/investigate the following articles that I was referencing:

• Native American Jews?

• My Jewish Learning: Native Americans & Jews: The Lost Tribes Episode

Interesting to consider. And it does make one think what the implications would be if many of those in the New World were with Jewish blood in some cases, especially as it concerns the Gentiles coming to know who Jesus is and the Lord preparing others for who He is while also preserving His people in a myriad of ways. As there have already been cases of Jews mixing with Gentiles and God using them---such as it was with those who were Samaritans---I'm curious what other Messianic Jews may think on this concept of Jews possibly having the same experiences in other diasporas...and God preserving them even when interacting with other people groups across the Deep Blue Sea.


One theory I've heard that makes sense to me is during the time of Nimrod when YHVH divided the landmass, a portion of the tribes were on what we would call the American continent. I don't know which one or if a combination--but what I find interesting is that the Cherokee customs for centuries match what is in Torah, from the new moon, to Shabbat, to the "laws of the land", to "love thy neighbor".

Some may disagree--but the theory would make more sense if seeing it within the context of what happened at Babel in Genesis 11

At the Tower of Babel, a city that was the antithesis of what God intended when He created the world, the Lord came down and disrupting a civilization in which there was originally one language for the entire world. The opening description in Genesis 11:1 with the whole world having one language indicates that the present episode was not placed chronologically after the events narrated in Genesis 10, which specifically mentions nations and languages (Genesis 10:20, Genesis 10:31-32, etc). .....and the episode with Babel may have occurred during the broad period covered in Genesis 10, especially if linked to the naming of Peleg in Genesis 10:25.


Genesis 1:9 records, “And God said, ‘Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.’ And it was so.” Presumably, if all the water was “gathered to one place,” the dry ground would also be all “in one place.” As Genesis 10:25 mentions, “…one was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided…”, its understandable as to why some point to Genesis 10:25 as evidence that the earth was divided after the Flood of Noah. Of course, there are others who view Genesis 10:25 as referring to the “division” that occurred at the Tower of Babel rather than the division of the continents via “continental drift.” Some also dispute the post-Noahic Pangea separation due to the fact that, at the current rates of drift, the continents could not possibly have drifted so far apart in the time that has transpired since the Noahic Flood. However, it cannot be proven that the continents have always drifted at the same rate. Furthermore, God is capable of expediting the continental-drift process to accomplish His goal of separating humanity (Genesis 11:8)....for God is able to do anything and has intervened in the natural world in wild ways MULTIPLE times before. The post-Noahic Pangea concept does possibly explain how the animals and humanity were able to migrate to the different continents. For how did the kangaroos get to Australia after the Flood if the continents were already separated?

Another explanation offered by Christian scientists that does not require a post-Noahic Pangea is that intercontinental migration most likely began while sea levels were still low during and immediately following the post-Flood Ice Age when much of the water was still trapped in ice at the poles. In this view, lower sea levels would have left the continental shelves exposed, connecting all of the major land masses through land bridges. As it stands, there are (or at least were) shallow underwater land bridges connecting all of the major continents. North America, Southeast Asia, and Australia are all attached to continental Asia...whereas Britain is attached to continental Europe. In some places, these intercontinental bridges are only a few hundred feet below our current sea level. Essentially, the theory can be summarized as follows:

(1) After the Flood, an Ice Age occurred.

(2) The vast amount of water that was frozen resulted in the oceans being much lower than they are today.

(3) The low level of the oceans resulted in land bridges connecting the various continents.

(4) Human beings and animals migrated to the different continents over these land bridges.

(5) The Ice Age ended, the ice melted and the ocean levels rose, resulting in the land bridges being submerged.
​

Thus, while Pangea is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, the Bible does present the possibility of a Pangea.





For more information, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:

• "Apologetics Press - Pangea, Peleg, and a Divided World" ()

• "Of Peleg and Pangaea << Associates for Biblical Research" ( )

And what scientists note with the theory of Pangea makes sense if considering what was noted with Peleg---and connecting it all with Babel, it may've been the case that God scattered all people across the world when the continents were one......choosing to later seperate those continents so that people would sovereignly be disconnected from one another. There are some linguists have noted how the Hebrew language seems to be the root language from which all other languages may derive. Examples of such would be linguistics such as Issac Mozen in his discussions on what's known as Edenics.....and for examples of such, one can go online/look up the following under their respective titles:

• "Edenics" ( )

• What is the Study of Edenics? -Edenics

• "Edenics, the Semitic origin of English words" ()

• "Edenics ( Biblical Hebrew ) | The Origin of Language"

Issac Mozen is one of the leading linguistics professionals who has sought to discuss the issue in-depth---and it has been pretty intriguing studying some of the information he has given out concerning how one can find aspects of the Hebraic in all languages known to man.



Moving on, in light of all of the Jewish Diasporas or Jewish groups that often traveled away from the Middle East to other lands, its more than possible that Jews could have easily come into contact with those in North America. Consequently, many of their practices could have diffused into the Native American culture...with them either assimilating into the local culture, moving on to other places, or dying off while their practices lived on.

Its also possible that what happened with the Native Americans was nothing short of what God has done many times when he prepared cultures/peoples far in advance before anything of awareness with Jewish culture came to mind---just as it was with others such as Noah or Seth and many others precedding those in the Mosaic culture. If it could have happened with Hammurabi's Law---which predated the Mosaic Code by nearly 300 yrs and yet was identical in multiple parts---the same is possible with those in American Indian culture. And as it stands, Jews have already been found in far off parts of the world in amazing ways. Many are still astonished by those who are Indian Jews and how they interacted with their culture...being influenced by it just as it was in the age of Hellenism/Greek Culture upon the Jews. Some of this was discussed on the boards elsewhere, as seen here.



Something else I came across was from the History network, as it was a special focusing upon a band of Cherokee who believe they are Jews and live in a Messianic Jewish way.

Here it is:

YouTube - Cherokee DNA from History Channel.wmv​

They did DNA testing and the DNA didn't show any genetic markers that they were of Hebrew descent. They still believe they are. I think its interesting whenever others may stop to say that its somehow impossible that those without Jewish DNA automatically are simply not connected with the Jewish world. As many Jews often came across other people groups and spread their beliefs to them, be it with the Samaritans or Jews who traversed the world in the various Diasporas, why is it difficult to believe that the same is possible to occur in North America?

To me, it seems logical that DNA would not need to be a factor since the cultural beliefs of one group can be transmitted to another if there's extensive interaction between them....and on some things, its more than possible for one group to have a primitive version of what another has. The implications of Native Americans being tied to Jewish culture is something I think has significant implications for the world of Messianic Judaism






Something else to consider is something known as the Los Lunas Stone and how significant it seems to be when it comes to the subject of diffusion....regarding how Jewish culture impacted the Native American world.

​

The Los Lunas Inscription is an abridged version of the Decalogue or Ten Commandments, carved into the flat face of a large boulder resting on the side of Hidden Mountain, near Los Lunas, New Mexico, about 35 miles south of Albuquerque. The language is Hebrew, and the script is the Old Hebrew alphabet, with a few Greek letters mixed in. One can check out some of these research articles on the issue, as they can be found if one goes online/looks up the following under their respective titles:

• The Los Lunas Decalouge Stone..

• The Mystery Of The Los Lunas Decalogue Stone

• "The Diffusionists Have Landed << The Atlantic Monthly"

• 
  [*]The Newark, Ohio Decalogue Stone and Keystone by
  J.Huston McCulloch and with Ohio State Archeological Department
  

• "Los Lunas Decalouge - Translation of the Los Lomas Decalogue Inscription" ()

• "Book: &#8220;Native American Jews? - A Fulfillment of Prophecy?&#8221; - By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok - Destination Yisra'el" ( )

If what has been written may be too much for anyone to read, my apologies. Nonetheless, for those interested, I'd love to hear feedback on what you feel on the issue.
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Its also possible that what happened with the Native Americans was nothing short of what God has done many times when he prepared cultures/peoples far in advance before anything of awareness with Jewish culture came to mind---just as it was with others such as Noah or Seth and many others precedding those in the Mosaic culture. If it could have happened with Hammurabi's Law---which predated the Mosaic Code by nearly 300 yrs and yet was identical in multiple parts---the same is possible with those in American Indian culture.
​

Something else that I found of interest was the following, concerning the the similarities of the OT to Hawaiian legends/folklore. One can go here for more.



I thought it was a very fascinating article. The accounts of Creation--especially as it concerns Chaos existing before and being vanquised by the gods---was extremely interesting when considering what the Biblical text says...

Something that stood out to me was part of their conclusions. As the article said near the end (brief excerpt):

According to those legends of Kumuhonua and Wela-ahi-lani, “at the time when the gods created the stars, they also created a multitude of angels, or spirits (i kini akua), who were not created like men, but made from the spittle of the gods (i kuhaia), to be their servants or messengers. These spirits, or a number of them, disobeyed and revolted, because they were denied the awa; which means that they were not permitted to be worshipped, awa being a sacrificial offering and sign of worship. These evil spirits did not prevail, however, but were conquered by Kane, and thrust down into uttermost darkness (ilalo loa i ka po). The chief of these spirits was called by some Kanaloa, by others Milu, the ruler of Po; Akua ino; Kupu ino, the evil spirit. Other legends, however, state that the veritable and primordial lord of the Hawaiian inferno was called Manua. The inferno itself bore a number of names, such as Po-pau-ole, Po-kua-kini, Po-kini-kini, Po-papa-ia-owa, Po-ia-milu. Milu, according to those other legends, was a chief of superior wickedness on earth who was thrust down into Po, but who was really both inferior and posterior to Manua. This inferno, this Po, with many names, one of which remarkably enough was Ke-po-lua-ahi, the pit of fire, was not an entirely dark place. There was light of some kind and there was fire. The legends further tell us that when Kane, Ku, and Lono were creating the first man from the earth, Kanaloa was present, and in imitation of Kane, attempted to make another man out of the earth. When his clay model was ready, he called to it to become alive, but no life came to it. Then Kanaloa became very angry, and said to Kane, ‘I will take your man, and he shall die,’ and so it happened. Hence the first man got his other name Kumu-uli, which means a fallen chief, he ’lii kahuli.... With the Hawaiians, Kanaloa is the personified spirit of evil, the origin of death, the prince of Po, or chaos, and yet a revolted, disobedient spirit, who was conquered and punished by Kane.


...................................

“There are these different Hawaiian genealogies, going back with more or less agreement among themselves to the first created man. The genealogy of Kumuhonua gives thirteen generations inclusive to Nuu, or Kahinalii, or the line of Laka, the oldest son of Kumuhonua. (The line of Seth from Adam to Noah counts ten generations.) The second genealogy, called that of Kumu-uli, was of greatest authority among the highest chiefs down to the latest times, and it was taboo to teach it to the common people. This genealogy counts fourteen generations from Huli-houna, the first man, to Nuu, or Nana-nuu, but inclusive, on the line of Laka. The third genealogy, which, properly speaking, is that of Paao, the high-priest who came with Pili from Tahiti, about twenty-five generations ago, and was a reformer of the Hawaiian priesthood, and among whose descendants it has been preserved, counts only twelve generations from Kumuhonua to Nuu, on the line of Kapili, youngest son of Kumuhonua.”

“In the Hawaiian group there are several legends of the Flood. One legend relates that in the time of Nuu, or Nana-nuu (also pronounced lana, that is, floating), the flood, Kaiakahinalii, came upon the earth, and destroyed all living beings; that Nuu, by command of his god, built a large vessel with a house on top of it, which was called and is referred to in chants as ‘He waa halau Alii o ka Moku,’ the royal vessel, in which he and his family, consisting of his wife, Lilinoe, his three sons and their wives, were saved. When the flood subsided, Kane, Ku, and Lono entered the waa halau of Nuu, and told him to go out. He did so, and found himself on the top of Mauna Kea (the highest mountain on the island of Hawaii). He called a cave there after the name of his wife, and the cave remains there to this day—as the legend says in testimony of the fact. Other versions of the legend say that Nuu landed and dwelt in Kahiki-honua-kele, a large and extensive country.” ... “Nuu left the vessel in the evening of the day and took with him a pig, cocoanuts, and awa as an offering to the god Kane. As he looked up he saw the moon in the sky. He thought it was the god, saying to himself, ‘You are Kane, no doubt, though ]you have transformed yourself to my sight.’ So he worshipped the moon, and offered his offerings.

Then Kane descended on the rainbow and spoke reprovingly to Nuu, but on account of the mistake Nuu escaped punishment, having asked pardon of Kane.” ... “Nuu’s three sons were Nalu-akea, Nalu-hoo-hua, and Nalu-mana-mana. In the tenth generation from Nuu arose Lua-nuu, or the second Nuu, known also in the legend as Kane-hoa-lani, Kupule, and other names. The legend adds that by command of his god he was the first to introduce circumcision to be practised among his descendants. He left his native home and moved a long way off until he reached a land called Honua-ilalo, ‘the southern country.’ Hence he got the name Lalo-kona, and his wife was called Honua-po-ilalo. He was the father of Ku-nawao by his slave-woman Ahu (O-ahu) and of Kalani-menehune by his wife, Mee-hewa. Another says that the god Kane ordered Lua-nuu to go up on a mountain and perform a sacrifice there. Lua-nuu looked among the mountains of Kahiki-ku, but none of them appeared suitable for the purpose. Then Lua-nuu inquired of God where he might find a proper place. God replied to him: ‘Go travel to the eastward, and where you find a sharp-peaked hill projecting precipitously into the ocean, that is the hill for the sacrifice.’ Then Lua-nuu and his son, Kupulu-pulu-a-Nuu, and his servant, Pili-lua-nuu, started off in their boat to the eastward. In remembrance of this event the Hawaiians called the back of Kualoa Koo-lau; Oahu (after one of Lua-nuu’s names), Kane-hoa-lani; and the smaller hills in front of it were named Kupu-pulu and Pili-lua-nuu. Lua-nuu is the tenth descendant from Nuu by both the oldest and the youngest of Nuu’s sons. This oldest son is represented to have been the progenitor of the Kanaka-maoli, the people living on the mainland of Kane (Aina kumupuaa a Kane): the youngest was the progenitor of the white people (ka poe keo keo maoli). This Lua-nuu (like Abraham, the tenth from Noah, also like Abraham), through his grandson, Kini-lau-a-mano, became the ancestor of the twelve children of the latter, and the original founder of the Menehune people, from whom this legend makes the Polynesian family descend.”


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------

“Two hypotheses,” says Judge Fornander, “may with some plausibility be suggested to account for this remarkable resemblance of folk-lore. One is, that during the time of the Spanish galleon trade, in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, between the Spanish Main and Manila, some shipwrecked people, Spaniards and Portuguese, had obtained sufficient influence to introduce these scraps of Bible history into the legendary lore of this people.... On this fact hypothesis I remark that, if the shipwrecked foreigners were educated men, or only possessed of such Scriptural knowledge as was then imparted to the commonality of laymen, it is morally impossible to conceive that a Spaniard of the sixteenth century should confine his instruction to some of the leading events of the Old Testament, and be totally silent upon the Christian dispensation, and the cruciolatry, mariolatry, and hagiolatry of that day. And it is equally impossible to conceive that the Hawaiian listeners, chiefs, priests, or commoners, should have retained and incorporated so much of the former in their own folk-lore, and yet have utterly forgotten every item bearing upon the latter.

“The other hypothesis is, that at some remote period either a body of the scattered Israelites had arrived at these islands direct, or in Malaysia, before the exodus of ‘the Polynesian family,’ and thus imparted a knowledge of their doctrines, of the early life of their ancestors, and of some of their peculiar customs, and that having been absorbed by the people among whom they found a refuge, this is all that remains to attest their presence—intellectual tombstones over a lost and forgotten race, yet sufficient after twenty-six centuries of silence to solve in some measure the ethnic puzzle of the lost tribes of Israel. In regard to this second hypothesis, it is certainly more plausible and cannot be so curtly disposed of as the Spanish theory.... So far from being copied one from the other, they are in fact independent and original versions of a once common legend, or series of legends, held alike by Cu[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]e, Semite, Turanian, and Aryan, up to a certain time, when the divergencies of national life and other causes brought other subjects peculiar to each other prominently in the foreground; and that as these divergencies hardened into system and creed, that grand old heirloom of a common past became overlaid and colored by the peculiar social and religious atmosphere through which it has passed up to the surface of the present time. But besides this general reason for refusing to adopt the Israelitish theory, that the Polynesian legends were introduced by fugitive or emigrant Hebrews from the subverted kingdoms of Israel or Judah, there is the more special reason to be added that the organization and splendor of Solomon’s empire, his temple, and his wisdom became proverbial among the nations of the East subsequent to his time; on all these, the Polynesian legends are absolutely silent.”

In commenting on the legend of Hiiaka-i-ka-poli-o-Pele, Judge Fornander says: “If the Hebrew legend of Joshua or a Cu[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]e version give rise to it, it only brings down the community of legends a little later in time. And so would the legend of Naulu-a-Mahea,... unless the legend of Jonah, with which it corresponds in a measure, as well as the previous legend of Joshua and the sun, were Hebrew anachronisms compiled and adapted in later times from long antecedent materials, of which the Polynesian references are but broken and distorted echoes, bits of legendary mosaics, displaced from their original surroundings and made to fit with later associations.”

In regard to the account of the Creation, he remarks that “the Hebrew legend infers that the god Elohim existed contemporaneously with and apart from the chaos. The Hawaiian legend makes the three great gods, Kane, Ku, and Lono, evolve themselves out of chaos.... The order of creation, according to Hawaiian folk-lore, was that after Heaven and earth had been separated, and the ocean had been stocked with its animals, the stars were created, then the moon, then the sun.” Alluding to the fact that the account in Genesis is truer to nature, Judge Fornander nevertheless propounds the inquiry whether this fact may not “indicate that the Hebrew text is a later emendation of an older but once common tradition”?

​

On the part with the gods existing alongside chaos before making all things, some of it reminds me of the issue others often debate when it comes to believing that all matter in existence has ALWAYS been self-existent. For we know that matter is not immutable. We observe changes in the environment all the time.....

And with the view that matter can change, As it stands, when it comes to Genesis 1 and creation, many are of the mindset that God did not create the ugly state that all of creation was in before His spirit hovered over the waters and God said "Let there be light." This view is often adopted by those who are gap theorists when it comes to Creation views. For they maintain that Satan fell before the creation week. There's also the mindset that the wording of "formless/void" and "darkness" were used to symbolize Chaos (Greek &#967;&#940;&#959;&#962; khaos) preceding the creation --and that God destroyed that in creation, subduing the universe.



Moving back to the original point, all of that is stated in order to illustrate the point that its amazing to see how many other cultures around the world seem to have much of the same concepts that can be found within the Jewish worldview...and some of them directly akin to the Jewish worldview as well.


The way that God reveals Himself, truly amazing. I am still amazed considering how possible it is that the Jews perhaps were able to make it somehow to the South Pacific and via diffusion spread some aspects of their culture....or, at the best, perhaps had a similar revelation that the Jews had which was incomplete but nonetheless real. And not surprised after seeing how God has truly done it many times before.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Concerning the discussion topic, some may be wary of this, as it borders on what many are not supportative of with Two-House Theory/Lost Tribes.



On the issue, I recently read something by Dr.Michael Brown on the issue of II Kings 17 and who the Lost 10 Tribes are. Seemed very intriguing on many parts.

As Dr.Brown said best (for a brief excerpt):

What happened to the tribes of the kingdom of Israel? (1) Some of the people remained in Samaria and became known as the Samaritans. They consider themselves to be true Israelites, but other Jews, especially in ancient times, have considered them to be half-breeds. (2) Some of the people may have made their way to Judah and became incorporated into the larger “Jewish” population (see especially 2 Chronicles 34:3-9, which indicates that a remnant of the ten northern tribes remained intact after the Assyrian exile). This is reflected in New Testament references that speak of “the twelve tribes of Israel” (see Acts 26:7; James 1:1), indicating that this was the conscious understanding of the Jews in New Testament times, namely that they represented the twelve tribes of Israel and not just Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Note also that the twelve tribes of Israel remain part of God’s future plans (see, e.g., Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). (3) Some of the people became completely assimilated into the nations where they were scattered and have become lost to history (but not to myth!). (4) Some may have actually retained their Israelite-Jewish origins, retaining their ancient traditions and continuing to preserve a conscious identification as Israelites or Jews. Among these would be groups such as the Ethiopian Jews.

Now, despite many myths and wild theories (including the “Two House Theory”), it appears that many Israelites who were scattered among the nations were, in fact, completely lost to history. It was part of God’s judgment on the nation, and from everything we can tell, for these Israelites, it was final. There is simply no truth to the claims of groups such as the “British Israelites,” who believe that “the Lost Ten Tribes of the Northern House of Israel’s descendants are to be found in the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic and kindred peoples of today,” nor is there any support for the Mormon claim that the Native Americans are descended from the ancient Israelites—despite the fact that no less a Semitic scholar than C. H. Gordon (1908-2001) pointed to possible links between the Israelites (or, more precisely, Judeans) and Native Americans, claiming that there was evidence for ancient Hebrew inscriptions in America. DNA evidence (among other things) is against such an identification, and, not surprisingly, the recent book by former Mormon bishop Simon G. Southerton, a molecular geneticist from Australia, entitled Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church, has generated a fierce backlash from Mormon apologists, so damning are its conclusions to Mormonism.

On the other hand, there are different groups around the world that have retained biblical Jewish commands such as circumcision and Sabbath observance—but not later, rabbinic traditions—and who trace their ancestry to the biblical tribes of Israel. While there is some dispute as to the authenticity of their claims—e.g., some traditions claim that the Ethiopian Jews are descendants of the biblical tribe of Dan while other traditions claim that they are the descendants of the alleged union of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba—the State of Israel today embraces these different groups, either as people who converted to Judaism at different times in history and now need to get fully integrated, or as legitimate descendants of the ancient tribes of Israel.

Related to this was a report on World Net Daily, November 23, 2006: “‘Lost tribe of Israel’ returns home. Group from India ‘descended from Joseph’ arrives in Jewish state.” One of the main organizations involved with helping groups such as this return to Israel is called Shavei Israel (Shavei.org; the name means “those who return to Israel”; the organization was originally called Amishav). The website states, “Comprised of a team of academics, educators and rabbinical figures, Shavei Israel reaches out to ‘lost Jews’ and assists them in coming to terms with their heritage and identity in a spirit of tolerance and understanding.” This is a serious endeavor!

The head of Shavei Israel, Michael Freund said, “I truly believe this is a miracle of immense historical and even biblical significance. Just as the prophets foretold so long ago, the lost tribes of Israel are being brought back from the exile.”

All told, there are about, 8,000 such Indian Jews, called the Bnei Menashe, based on their belief that they have descended from the tribe of Manasseh (Menashe in Hebrew), and the great majority of them are still in India. But are they really true Israelites? There has obviously been some degree of intermarriage (the same can be said about Ethiopian Jews and other groups), but that can be said for other Jews (and Israelites) throughout history, albeit not on such a large scale.


​

As much as Dr.Brown is someone who I greatly enjoy and have learned from, I disagree with him when it comes to his claiming that the judgement of the Lost Tribes are somehow an action of Finality......and though I agree with him on how the tribes themselves are also found within the NT, I don't think it'd be far off to say that the 10 Tribes were also scattered to other nations. I find it interesting to see how often it seems that there's resistance to the thought that it may be impossible to think that somehow the Jews could have somehow been centered at ONE location rather than being spread abroad all over the earth.....especially when seeing the many ways that Jewish groups/cultural aspects have been found all over the world---be it in Ethopia or India and many other places.

Of course, it seems that many will automatically shut down the moment anything is mentioned of the term "Two House Theory"...but for myself, I think it'd be reasonable to say that many of those deemed to be "Gentile" nations/cultures are indeed descended or connected with Israelite culture in one way or another....while at the same time its true that there are still Gentiles who never had contact with Israelitie culture and yet they were still used of the Lord. It doesn't necessarily have to be an "either or scenario of saying that either all Gentiles are the descendants of Israel (Ephraim/Manasseh and others) or that there are no Gentiles whom God never used to bless Israel.

As the Jews were literally scattered ALL OVer the world in many Diasporas/eras, my mindset is that it should not be surprising to find Hebrew camps/traces of Israelite culture in many parts of the world---for in many ways, it can be seen as an insurance policy enacted by God to make certain His people were all over and within the nations themselves so that they'd either influence for the sake of Divine Protection...or learn something from the nations that they needed to surive.



I'm one who believes God is revealing His Jewish/Gentile Remnant all around the world and supporting "Two-House Theory" of the Gentiles being of the House of Joseph/Ephraim that was scattered (Genesis 48:19), with God bringing his people home in reunification prior to the Messiah’s return (Isaiah 11:12-16; Jeremiah 10:6-10; Ezekiel 37:15-28; Zechariah 10:6-10, Romans 11, Romans 15, etc). Its not difficult for me to consider the House of Ephraim being connected to Gentiles in light of how Joseph Himself was Egyptian in many ways when saving his people--from shaving his beard to taking on an Egyptian Name and marrying an Egyptian wife......and it makes sense that we must understand that the Gentile nations Jacob spoke of in Genesis 48:19 are rooted in both Joseph an Israelite and his Egyptian wife, with these Gentile nations connected to Israel through their father Joseph. In some respects Joseph is also a type of Messiah.


Unlike many Two-House Theory advocates, I think that the dispersed do show up in scripture as not being lost as a whole. For the New Testament mentions Anna from the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36-37) and James was written to the twelve tribes dispersed (not lost) in James 1:1-2. Peter writes to them as well (I Peter 1:1-2)---and thus, on this part I believe that the proponents of such "Two House" Theory are exaggerating at best the fact of the tribes being "lost" if thinking they're no longer present ANYWHERE after the exile. However, to be fair, I also believe that it is entirely possible, if not very plausible, that there were some, if not many of those 10 tribes that were disbursed that did lose their identity (probably on purpose) to fit in better with society.

Many of them (if not most) already had no love for their ancestors or the God of their ancestors. Technically, it would only take ONE generation of even one small number of the 10 tribes to do this to turn into 10's of millions of people that are truly Israelites that are still scattered throughout all of the earth, essentially being Gentiles. It'd be foolish for one to suppose that EVERY SINGLE ISRAELITE that was dispersed maintained their identity, as if there was NEVER a teenager that got so tired of being harassed that they decided to change his or her name to become like their neighbor. So the Two House Movement may be a little to "extreme", if you will, in many aspects...but any honest student of the word certainly has to admit that it is EXTREMELY possible that there WAS some families within the tribes that dissented and by default would create millions of "lost tribes" today.



Some may say, "But what about Romans 11 and the issue of the Gentiles being Grafted into Israel?"...and this is something many think shows that Gentiles never had any dealings with the Jewish people. On that, I can agree..and on the issue, I want to be clear that I'm NOWHERE NEAR SUPPORTING the falsehood that all things "Gentile" are to be ashamed of if its not connected to what's Jewish....for when it comes to God's Workings in the world, it seems clear from scripture that God used both JEWS and GENTILES not connected with anything Jewish to do mighty things. God loves the Gentiles disconected from Jewish culture just as much as He loves the Hebrews......and its not an issue of who's "SUPERIOR" since both groups have been used by God.

Essentially, if you're a Gentile, Work it out and be proud of your heritage

However, with that said, I also think that it is possible for the term "Gentile" to have more than one meaning...and it may be wrong to assume all references to "Gentiles" is somehow seperate from Jewish culture.

In example, I'm reminded of what God had said in Romans 9. For seven hundred years before Jesus's birth, Hosea told of God's intention to bring Gentiles into His family after the Jews rejected his plan (Hosea 2:23 and Hosea 1:10).

Romans 11 describes the Gentiles as Wild Olive Branches who've been grafted on the unproductive tree that is the Jews...the Jews being like natural branches of that tree (Romans 11:11-30). Gentile believers were grafted into the tree like a wild olive branch to inject new vitality into the old tree..and both Jews and Gentiles share its nourishment and depend on Christ for life while neither cna rest on heritage, culture, or theological beliefs for salvation.

But on the issue, how does a branch become wild? It seems that it was already the case in scripture that there were believers in God outside of the nation of Israel/Abraham (i.e. Melchizedek, Jethro, Job, Noah, The Roman Centurion, Cornelius, Naaman the Syrian, etc) whom the Lord used...and thus, it would seem (IMHO) a stretch to say that Romans 11 was about God saying he was not going to begin using the Gentiles who had no worth before or ability to be used by Him.

And with wild olive branches, if I'm not mistaken, in some cases, one can have a plant that's domesticated placed into the wild ....only to come back months or years later and find out that the plant was able to adapt to the elements and effectively become "wild." Kudzu comes to mind, as it is a serious invasive plant in the United States that been spreading in the southern U.S. at the rate of 150,000 acres (61,000 ha) annually. It was introduced from Japan into the United States in 1876 at the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition, where it was promoted as a forage crop and an ornamental plant. From 1935 to the early 1950s, the Soil Conservation Service encouraged farmers in the southeastern United States to plant kudzu to reduce soil erosion...and the Civilian Conservation Corps planted it widely for many years. It was subsequently discovered that the southeastern US has near-perfect conditions for kudzu to grow out of control — hot, humid summers, frequent rainfall, temperate winters with few hard freezes (kudzu cannot tolerate low freezing temperatures that bring the frost line down through its entire root system, a rare occurrence in this region), and no natural predators. As such, the once-promoted plant was named a pest weed by the United States Department of Agriculture in 1953. Kudzu is now common throughout most of the southeastern United States, and has been found as far northeast as Paterson, New Jersey, in 30 Illinois counties including as far north as Evanston, and as far south as Key West, Florida.

Its now all over the trees/landscape and in some cases choking life out of plants....whereas in other cases, there has been a symbosis that has occurred. The same principle seems to happen with animals who become feral over a period of time, even though once they were tame (i.e. Dingos in Austraila, Feral cats, etc)....and the same happens in reverse with animals who became domesticated

Thus, it'd seem possible that Gentiles in Romans 11 could have previously been connected with the Northern Kingdom....those of Israel who became "wild", in accordance with Genesis 48:19...and thus, what God was doing was truly bringing about a reunification of Jew/Gentile with the Gentiles having no room to boast.





​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thus, it'd seem possible that Gentiles in Romans 11 could have previously been connected with the Northern Kingdom....those of Israel who became "wild", in accordance with Genesis 48:19...and thus, what God was doing was truly bringing about a reunification of Jew/Gentile with the Gentiles having no room to boast.

Continuning from previous post...


Wherever God shows mercy to one group, the other shares in the blessing. Of course, with Romans 11, it could also be that Paul had in mind those Gentiles never having ANY Connection with Israel/simply being "Gentiles" rather than Gentiles with Hebraic orgins....while at the same time, Paul simultaneously had in mind those Gentiles who were indeed connected to Israel/didn't know it.

Ultimately, I think its awesome to consider...for in God's orginal plan, the Jews would be the source of God's blessing to the Gentiles via the Messiah...but when the Jews neglected this mission, God blessed the Gentiles anyway through the Jewish Messiah. He still maintained His love for the Jews because of His promises to Abraham, Issac and Jacob ("for the father's sakes"). But someday the faithful Jews will share in God's Mercy. God's plans will not be thwarted, for he "will have mercy upon all" (Isaiah 60 and Isaiah 61).



For more on what those supporative of "Two-House Theory" say, one can go online/look up a ministry under the name of "TNN Online: Two-House News Network - The Two Houses of Israel - The Two-House Teaching in Proper Perspective" ...under the section entitled "Resoration of Israel" section.

There's also an excellent article online that went in-depth in dealing with the issue, as seen if one should go online/look up the article entitled "The "Ephraimite Error" - TNN Online" .







Another is entitled "The Prophet's Scroll: Edition 29 -The greatest reunion ever"

Moreover, from Orthodox Jews who teach Two House outside of Messianic Judaism.

Yair Davidy
Rabbi Avraham Feld, also works with Yair Davidy

Moshiach.com
An orthodox website detailing even the opinions in the Talmud on the lost tribes of Israel...
​

"Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? << The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews" () is also a wonderful resource..


Personally, when I consider Romans 11, it seems odd that somehow Paul would be unaware of Israelites not being amongst Gentiles and considered as "Gentiles."










With that said, some questions on my mind are the following:

• (1) To what extent do you feel that the Jews have been scatterred abroad?

• (2) Why is it a negative for others to assume that Gentiles may be related to Hebraic dynamics in multiple ways?

• (3) Does the Possibility of Gentiles being related to Jews in some ways automatically mean that Gentiles have to become as "Jews"---or is it possible that Gentiles can be free in continuning to emulate the aspects of other nations apart of their heritage/story and necessary for their survival/witness, just as it was with Joseph who did cultural contexualization when he lived amongst the Egyptians.....different from his brothers/family?

I think its more than possible what Advocates of "Two House Theory" note when saying that the ten tribes of the Kingdom of Israel have become a multitude of nations since their exile by the Assyrian Empire (740-722 BCE) ( 1 Chronicles 5:26 ) and lengthy migrations before and particularly after the decline of the Parthian Empire, 200-700 CE (also known as the Great Migration Period or Barbarian Invasions ) that occurred during roughly AD 300&#8211;700 in Europe, marking the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. This could go alongside the reality of the Jews in the Kingdom of Judah who exiled to other places----up to and following Judah's return from their Babylonian Captivity in 537 BCE. One can also add the accounts of those scattered by the Roman diaspora (70 CE) and subsequent Christian and Muslim exiles in later periods.


The 1st century Jewish priest and historian, Josephus, writing near the turn of the 2nd century AD, affirmed that the Jews knew where the House of Israel had been taken captive a thousand years earlier:

. . . the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country [Media]; wherefore there are but two tribes [Judah and Benjamin] in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.

-Antiquities of the Jews, 11.5.2, from The Works of Josephus, translated by Whiston, W., Hendrickson Publishers. 1987. 13th Printing. p 294
​

​

While the multitudinous nature of the exiled ten tribes may be somewhat exaggerated in the opinion of many, it is highly unlikely that Josephus would pen an outright falsehood regarding the Median location of the ten tribes when such a statement could be vociferously denied by his fellow-countrymen if the ten tribes had at any time in the past reunited with the Jews following the Babylonian Captivity.

Of course, it is not necessarily the case that people can know 100% where all of the Lost Tribes are currently...and to a degree, it can become dangerous whenever others not knowing fully as Gentiles will try to claim that they are truly "Of Israel" in the genetic sense. ...and look down upon others anything that's remotely seen as just "Gentile" or not connected with Jewishness.

Granted, like the old children's church song goes, "Father Abraham had many sons....and many songs had Father Abraham...I am one of them and So are you, so lets just praise the Lord."

But I'm glad for others, who are more moderate in their approach to the Two House controversy, choosing to see it as an overlooked element in the eschatological restoration of Israel. For they disregard the speculation and "pseudohistory" from British-Israel and other Christian Identity groups---especially as it concerns those making claims that &#8220;the Jews have been replaced by the church&#8221; or that &#8220;We are Israel now!!!&#8221; in ways akin to what happens with either Replacement Theology or Supersessionism. For many, they are for adhering to Paul's directive not to pay attention to "endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4).

For them, they simply choose to leave scattered Israel as a matter to be determined by God, and prefer instead to recognize all believers as participants in its restoration. It seems to be one of the best ways where others can "agree to disagree" because the Two House teaching is a matter of eschatology, and thus not of a core theological nature.


The writings of Steven M. Collins, in his book, The 10 Lost Tribes of Israel ... FOUND! ( http://stevenmcollins.com/homepage.php ) is something to consider, as it concerns his advocation for the other tribes becoming other nations..considering the ancient reality of the two Israelite kingdoms being applied to modern peoples who are thought to be descendants of the two ancient kingdoms, both Jews and the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, the latter are believed to have become "the fullness of the nations" ..also known as a &#8220;multitude of nations&#8221; ( peoples/goyim ) in Genesis 48:19:

Genesis 48:13-19
​

​

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day,

16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


​

Seeing the promise for Ephraim to be one from whom "multitudes of nations" would come forth is not really surprising to me.....for as much as others would think it wrong for anything Gentile to be connected to the Seed of Joseph and Jacob, what is interesting is how Jacob's blessing to Ephraim actually compliments what Joseph Himself did growing up. In example, before Joseph stood in Pharaoh&#8217;s presence, he shaved (Gen. 41:14), which was culturally very significant. A beard was highly regarded in Israel (cf. 2 Sam. 10:4-5), but in Egypt it was not. Joseph revealed wisdom by adapting to the culture of his day, yet in a way that did not violate any biblical principle.

A beard was really a matter of culture, not of creed. By taking the Egyptian&#8217;s language ( Genesis 42:22-24 ), their dress, and even an Egyptian wife (cf. Gen. 41:45), Joseph identified himself with the Egyptians in a way that made his ministry more acceptable, yet without any sacrifice of biblical principle. Thus, if a blessing was given to his son that Gentile culture would be greatly connected to him, Joseph would have been cool with it. For just as God had placed Joseph into slavery within Gentile territory (Egypt) so that he could rise up/eventually save his people and the ENTIRE known world from famine (Genesis 37-50)----having his very family move INTO Gentile territory in order to preserve them---so it could also be said that it was also a blessing that from Ephraim would come many Israelities who'd either go into Gentile nations/flourish there or eventually become the building blocks upon which many Gentile nations would develop. All of it goes right alongside what God already told Abraham in Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 about kings/nations coming forth...

As it concerns Jews from Judah, as much as others may take issue with "Two House Theory", I'd also say that the same dynamics with Gentiles are also possible for them to a good degree. For in their exile to the Babylonian Empire, there were many nations that rose up during that era..with Persia eventually defeating Babylon. And at one point, the Persian Empire was extremely extensive with Jews in all kinds of provinces, ranging from Cush to India. Esther comes to mind as an example of a Jew who was greatly connected to Gentile culture. Fpr the culture she lived in was one of many differing groups connected together in the Persian Empire...and with multi languages and one where Jews were involved in each ( Esther 1:21-22 , Esther 3:11-13, Esther 8:8-10 ). Esther 2:1-18 shows how she chose to learn whatever it was she needed for success---with God blessing it. And by her and her uncle placed in leadership, Jews rose to prominence. This is especially interesting in light of how Jews were already returning to Jerusalem after the 70yrs were up (Ezra 1-4) and some had chosen to stay where they had made homes for themselves/lives


Jeremiah 29:4-6 and Jeremiah 29:28 show this reality...as the Jews were obediant to God's commands to seek the peace of the nation they were in....and as said before with Ezra, specifically Ezra 1:5-6, many Jews choose to remain in Babylon rather than return to their homeland. Persian records actually indicate that many Jews in captivity had accumulated great wealth. ..and the journey back to Jerusalem was difficult, dangerous and expensive (lasting over four months). Travel conditions were poor, Jerusalem and her surrounding countryside were in ruins, and the people living there were hostile.....and for those that the Lord did not move upon to go back to Jerusalem, God used them where they were in exile amongst the nations. Mordecai again comes to mind alongside Esther. The Bible says in Esther 2:5-6 that Mordecai was a Jew who himself (or at least, his family like grandparents, great-grandparents) was carried injto exile when Jerusalem was destroyed. The Jewish population had increased since their exile over 100yrs earlier...and they had been given great freedom and were allowed to tun their own businesses and hold positions of government (Esther 2:19, Daniel 6:3). Mordecai himself, due to the actions of Esther in Esther 9-10 when she saved her people from destruction, eventually rose up to have a great reputation and KEY position of leadership in the Empire.



Thus, those claiming all of those who are Jewish are of no connection with the Gentiles don't have much of a foundation to stand upon. For if it could happen with those Jews listed, why think its impossible with others? As it stands, there are already cases of those having Jewish blood in their viens and yet they NEVER realized it because they didn't study their family history---and in many cases, when studying, they found out that their very last names were changed if coming to other nations not favorable toward Jews so that the family would be protected/able to operate without hassle, thus making it possible for their to be a loss in idenitity in the future.




If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear sometime. Shalom...

 

[yedida]

Stayed tuned Easy G, we have a Native American Messianic Jew on this forum. He doesn't come on daily but I'm sure he'll respond shortly.
Since I'm Messianic Gentile, I'm in no position to offer any information. I'll be interested in what my brethren have to say....

P.S.
One thing I can add: In your first post you made a statement that assumes that Hebrew is the oldest of languages. My understanding is it isn't. I was very disappointed when I learned that Hebrew borrows some of its root words from the Aakadian language (I probably spelled that wrong).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Stayed tuned Easy G, we have a Native American Messianic Jew on this forum. He doesn't come on daily but I'm sure he'll respond shortly.

Since I'm Messianic Gentile, I'm in no position to offer any information. I'll be interested in what my brethren have to say....
.

Cool to know, as I was hoping that there'd be someone of that background here...or at least anyone from an "First Nations"/Indigenous People's background. One of my brothers in Christ that I'm good friends with is Messianic..

As he said best:

I am born a Jew AND a Native. Because as a reform Jew from the Bronx I was raised in a Jewish community. Observing Jewish customs, and born with a Jewish name. All done according to halacha of reform Judaism. My 'fathers' side was Jewish. I am only a second generation American, my fathers side came from Jewish Europe between WW1 and WW2. Poland/Hungary. My mothers side is Puerto Rican/Dutch. My mothers father was full blood Puerto Rican/Taino. My mothers mother went through WW2 in Holland. Being bombed out of house and home and being forced to feed the nazi's. As they hid Jews.

As I grew up I realized the difference between 'religion' and my relationship with the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. Especially since the huge orhtodox population where I was raised discrimated grossly against people like me. As they still do today. I basically became atheist, hating God for making me like he did. Till I came to my senses and found Messiah. He brought me back to God the 'right' way. He completed my Jewishness. And made me understand the truth about maternal vs. paternal discrimination. It's a lie.

I now embrace my full being, born anew in Spirit through Yeshua, a Jewrican in the flesh. I was raised Jewish, and now I also embrace my native side. I have studied my Taino anscetry and have fully embraced my humanity and my spirituality, as One in Messiah Yeshua.

I often wonder and ponder the similaries in the injustices done to both peoples Jews/Tainos. And it helps me understand my place in this world.

So yes, Native American Jews exist, not only in picto writting alluding to Hebrew influences, but in real life as well. I am one. And I am now Proud to be made the way I am!

Thank you again, Yeshua!!
​

P.S.
One thing I can add: In your first post you made a statement that assumes that Hebrew is the oldest of languages. My understanding is it isn't. I was very disappointed when I learned that Hebrew borrows some of its root words from the Aakadian language (I probably spelled that wrong

On what was noted, I wanted to be clear that I do not personally think that is automatic that Hebrew is the Original language. The comment I made was intended to make the point that many other languages are very much similar to Hebrew, with others feeling as if its perhaps the case that Hebrew is the original language.

I do not wish to make it out as if all other languages are inferior to Hebrew....as that's often what many in Hebraic/Messianic circles have done when making it out as if God spoke only spoke Hebrew since the people he worked with were Hebrew.

For more clarity on my own position, I believe God comes to us where we are. If God wished to spread the Gospel/revelation of Himself to the Chinese in their language---as he has already been doing so---he'd be more than free to do so. Of course, alongside that comes the issue of how God did reveal Himself previously to the Chineese. In example, if aware of something known as “Ancient Faith Radio”, they did a series on the issue of how in some cultures, it seems that they were already being prepared for the presentation of the Gospel…with it being established that GOD was at work in all cultures far before any others with revelation of what the Hebrews had came around. The radio brodcast from "Ancient Faith Radio" was on a book entitled “Christ the Eternal Tao”…and for more info, one can go online/look up "Christ the Eternal Tao - Ancient Faith Radio" . I thought it was interesting to see from an Eastern Christian perspective how the Tao Te Ching is presented as an imperfect, incomplete foreshadowing of what would later be revealed by Christ.

[/QUOTE]

Some of its interesting looking at...but then again, if Genesis 11:1-131 is true with the Tower of Babel, its not surprising to see.

Genesis 11

The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

​

With Babel, God saw that the Babel enterprise was all about human independence and self-sufficiency apart from God.....for the builders believed that they had no need of God. Their technology and social unity gave them confidence in their own ability, and thery had high aspirations in constructing a tower in the heavens. Counter to God's plan that people should fill the earth (e.g Genesis 1:22, Genesis 1:28, Genesis 9:1-7), the city building project was designed to prevent the population from being dispersed over the face of the whole earth.


God intervened by confusing the languages...and by showing God's continued interest in his creatures, God set the setting for the call of Abram out of this very region that Babel was set up in, that he could be a vehicle of blessing to the whole world. Ironically, in the age of the Spirit given to all men because of Christ, its interesting that in Acts 2:1-12, the church came together in the upper room and experienced what happened before the Tower of Babel incident. For there were people who literally spoke in other languages--a muraculous attention-getter for the international crowd gathered in town for the feastt....and all nationalities represented recognized their own languages being spoken, showing the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. and showing how Christianity is not limited to any race or group of people.

The Spirit gave the people in Acts 2 utterance, indicating that the Holy Spirit was directing the syllables they spoke. Speaking in tongues in this way also seems to be the phenomenon experienced by those at Cornelius's house (Acts 10:45-46) and the disciples of John at Ephesus (John 19:6). ....all of it being based in the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:10, I Corinthians 12:29-30, I Corinthians 14:2) and showing how what God always intended is for universal language/comprehension of others in their own tongues to occur.


Again, all of that goes back to the reality of what happened with the Tower of Babel and why it was significant that God had to put on hold universal understanding of languages until He could be glorified---and He used the language of Hebrew and Abram in Genesis 12 to begin that plan. But one must bear in mind that just because the Lord chose to utilize one from the descendants of Shem/the language of Hebrew doesn't mean it in/of itself was the ONLY language that God ever spoke. God could have chosen any culture for the job He sovereignly gave to Abram. ....and if one wishes to be technical, it was not always the case that even the Jews themselves spoke Hebrew all the time. One can go to 2 Kings 18:25-27 and Isaiah 36:10-12 for a clear example when the Israelities asked another to speak to them in Aramaic since they didn't understand Hebrew.

As one Jewish believer said, the Lord speaking to the Jews in Hebrew doesn't mean Hebrew is the most sacred language. For there were others prior to the concept of Jews developing that the Lord spoke to.



In the land of Cannan, what of those prior to Abraham that the Lord may've spoken to? As it stands, there are many scholars who've argued that Hebrew did not develop until about 1000 BCE. ..and that before that, it was simply Canaanite, which evolved from Phoenician. The Canaanite Language, also know as Phoenician is a branch of the West Semitic languages that include Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic and others. Where Hebrew and Aramaic are closely related to the Canaanite language in vocabulary and grammar, Arabic is a little further off from grammatical proximity, but still retains much common vocabulary. Canaanite was spoken in Lebanon for thousands of years, and most of its lexicon is retained within the Lebanese colloquial dialect. With the language of Hebrew, one must consider the Arabic language and how the Hebrew and the Arabic really have the same root. For the word is “EL” in Hebrew and it’s “AL” in Aramaic. They came from the same word.

The fact that God showed himself/spoke to Hebrew to the Jews doesn't have to mean that it was God's "special/secret" language...for many have said how Hebrew would only have had significance to the Jews whom God spoke to when it came to their own tongue. When God spoke in other languages to other ethnic groups, to them their language would have been how God revealed Himself. Its one of the reasons as to why many Hebrew Christians do not think others have an inferior view of God when saying the Lord's name in Arabic---as they feel that God's greatness can be expressed even when saying "Allah". For more info, one of the best sources online to investigate would be an article under the name of Hebrew – The Original Language? " by Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins


For anyone either having friends on the Mission Field in Middle Eastern cultures and for that matter or doing extensive work regarding Muslims in nations around the world, it's always a trip when it seems that people equate the use of the term "Allah" with believing ALL ASPECTS as those do who are Muslim. People seem to display a good bit of ignorance on the issue when that happens, IMHO, as it often leading to uncessary offense among Arabic believers since the reality is that ALLAH is Arabic term used to indicate who God is.......and both CHRISTIAN and MUSLIMS use the term frequently if Arabic. As it stands, Arabic believers are more ancient than Jewish...and when a believer calls God the Father "Allah", people in other nations understand that just because the term is used does not mean it has the same connotations in all settings and asking questions for clarifications is wise.

It's the same thing when people choose to say "Isa" in regards to "Jesu", as that's the Arabic way of saying who the Lord is (as well as how many Muslims say of the Lord). They're saying such instead of "Yeshua" as those in Jewish culture choose to do does not logically mean that they are not exactly the same. And evangelists need to always be sensitive to this when it comes to cultural contexualization of the Gospel and what the Message is all about.

For another example, if in a Hispanic culture and presenting the Gospel, it was not necessary to tell them they HAVE to pronounce the name of Jesus as "Yeshua" in order to be acceptable to God. For that kind of mindset is similar to what many "Hebrew-Roots" cults have often done to others...essentially being Judaizers and trying to make all Gentiles become "Jewish" in everything from their terminology. When a Hispanic prays "El Señor es mi pastor Nada me faltara" (which means "The Lord is my Shepherd. I shall not want", in line with Psalm 23), its not as if the Lord refuses to say his name simply because the hispanic didn't say it as a Jewish person would. As Paul made clear in I Corinthians 9, it'd be important to speak the language of Gentiles when around Gentiles for the sake of the Gospel....and when around Jews, so as to not be offensive and avoid appearing as if one doesn't care about Hebraic foundations, it'd be just as appropiate for one to use the name "Yeshua" since that's their native tongue.

 

[Torah]

This is a very good book for anyone interested in knowing how the Jews helped settled the west. They supplied the Indians with goods from the early 1700, to the moving west and the southwest, opening trade good stores, and still living a Torah life. In the beginning of this book the author covers &#8220;Native American Jews&#8221;?

&#8220;Jews Among the Indians: Tales of Adventure and Conflict in the Old West&#8221;

http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Among-Indians-Adventure-Conflict/dp/0963296515

 

[aniello]

Hmmmm. The OP brings up interesting things to ponder, but maybe only that.

OK, briefly. By G-d's grace, I was made 1/2 Lakota(Sioux, not our name, my dad's side) and 1/4 Sicilian-Italian Jew and 1/4 Spanish/Portuguesa Jew, the latter 2 groups being Sephardic Jew, Mom's side, many of whom came to these shores from later mid 1600s through Shearit Yisrael(NYC) and Tuoro(Providence) with mixing with Ashkenaz, no doubt, in generations following. I'm tribal enrolled with a "number".

All these years I have heard these ideas of us AmerInds being Jewish. Since Gen. 10:25 occurs considerably before Avraham, I do not believe we NAs are Hebrew in the context of Avraham's being Hebrew. Time-wise that close a relation ship does not work. That we may have been in close proximity at the time of Gen. 10:25 and before I do think is possible. Thus, insofar as my tribe goes, yes there are sometimes fairly strong similarities between our seasonal and religious ways to Judaism, as specified in Torah I mean, and then again there are differences so great there are no connections that are to be made. There are even a few words in Lakota, Dakota and Nakota that are somewhat similar to Hebrew.

My private opinion, in view that I believe Gen. 10:25 correct as a Biblical historical narrative, is that at the time of the referenced scripture it seems to me that the ways of HaShem were available to humankind, that is His revealed, at the time, Instructions, may we call it Torah? I dunno. Did anyone follow such well? Well, seemingly not 'til Avram.

Someone mentioned in the foregoing posts that there were similarities between how the Jews were oppressed and how the AmerInds(North, Central and South Americas) were genocided. Of course there are similarities, the same general religious families did the oppressing. Guess who? Don't bother. Spanish catholics, Virginia Anglicans, Massachusetts and Connecticutt Calvinist Puritans, doesn't make any difference. Euro-Xtianity means death to us. Then everyone that followed from the effluvia of Europe. Manifest Deception anyone.

I believe in a Yeshua that hasn't been dragged through the filthy vias di Roma. He's more credible as what He was, is, and ever shall be, A Jew. And I don't care for Paolo to water down His Word, or supercede His Authority.

I like the original name HaDerech, "Christian" comes later. Accept no substitutes.

As a tri-racial/cultural person I can say we of the Oyate Lakota have finally learned to not disclose any more of our ways, traditions and culture to outsiders, if we can help it. Enough has been stolen and exploited already. My dad's people are dying, all in the name of some Euro-god. Go home.

I possibly will try to read the OP post(s) and maybe give a more to the point reply, I've only had the most cursory look at them.

Even if there is a direct link, Jew and Native American(which does not include Hispanic), if there is, so what? I'm not really seeking an answer.

Vente aqui, Adonai Yeshua, pronto por favor. Amein.

 

[A_Pioneer]

This has always facinated me. stevenmcollins.com/html/decalogue_stone.html
Along with other things attributed to the Hebrew presence in North America.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hmmmm. The OP brings up interesting things to ponder, but maybe only that.

OK, briefly. By G-d's grace, I was made 1/2 Lakota(Sioux, not our name, my dad's side) and 1/4 Sicilian-Italian Jew and 1/4 Spanish/Portuguesa Jew, the latter 2 groups being Sephardic Jew, Mom's side, many of whom came to these shores from later mid 1600s through Shearit Yisrael(NYC) and Tuoro(Providence) with mixing with Ashkenaz, no doubt, in generations following. I'm tribal enrolled with a "number".

A.

Cool to hear. For myself, I'm Biracial as well. My mother is from Panama, with other ancestors coming from West Indies before that (i.e. Barbados, Jamaica, etc)......and on my biological father's side, my grandmother is strong Blackfoot Indian..and hence, where the mixture of culture between Black and Indian comes from for me. It was always interesting growing up to see how often it seemed that many would often say to others who are mixed that they're not "black" or "Indian" enough.......and one of the best reads I was able to check out on the issue is entitled "Black Indians" by William Lorenz Katz ----and for more info, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "William Loren Katz | Black Indians. Black West." () and "Black Indians
by William Loren Katz" ()


The book itself goes into great depth discussing the issues of what went down for those who were products of mixed marriages/alliances between American Indians and Blacks.....and it also talked on why it seemed that blacks and Native Americans often were quick to form alliances more in ways that amazed the Europeans coming to conquer them. The examples of the Seminoles in Florida is one of the greatest examples that comes to my mind..

Some historical figures noted that it seemed like previous interactions may've already been present before they arrived---for even (in example) when it came to Columbus seeing the peoples he did in the Caribbean, it was interesting to see how he noted that many of the populaces there had others in the mix that had features very much in line with what one would expect to see with Africans.


On the book itself that I'm talking of, I was able to get the book last year during my visit to the Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian---and it was amazing seeing much of the history that is willfully left out. One section that blessed me tremendously and that I think you'd be interested in is known as "Indivisible: African Native American Lives in the Americas" ( )

All these years I have heard these ideas of us AmerInds being Jewish. Since Gen. 10:25 occurs considerably before Avraham, I do not believe we NAs are Hebrew in the context of Avraham's being Hebrew. Time-wise that close a relation ship does not work. That we may have been in close proximity at the time of Gen. 10:25 and before I do think is possible. Thus, insofar as my tribe goes, yes there are sometimes fairly strong similarities between our seasonal and religious ways to Judaism, as specified in Torah I mean, and then again there are differences so great there are no connections that are to be made. There are even a few words in Lakota, Dakota and Nakota that are somewhat similar to Hebrew.

I can definately agree with you, concerning the issue of how there are differences between certain tribes and what Abraham practiced as a Hebrew, just as there are similarities.

However, I'd also add that just because there was time between Gen 10:25 and the apperance of Abraham in the next chapter doesn't mean that there were others out there like Abraham who shared his faith. The scriptures make clear that many others were seeking the Lord in the time of the Patriarchs


I'm reminded of how Job himself was a righteous man after God whom God highly favored---with many scholars saying that Job actually existed way before Abraham did. The Israelite author presents Job as a person living in Uz, which is outside the borders of Israel itself ---and His piety (Job 1:1) exemplifies the ideal in Israelite wisdom and He invokes the name of Yahweh (Job 1:21). But at the same time, his relationship to Abraham's offspring remains a mystery. The events of the book seem to be set in the times of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The way Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20 refer to Job along with two others apparently from ancient times enhances this impression....and so do the favorite names for the deity, God" (Hb. 'Eloah, the singular of 'Elohim) and "the Almighty" (Hb. Shadday), which seem more suited to the days before the Exodus 3:14 and Exodus 6:3 instances. The name Yahweh, the Lord, appear only in Job 1-2 and Job 38-42, with one lone exception in the middle of the book, 12:9).

Again, the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job along with Noah and Daniel, and this seems to imply that he took Job as a real perosn. This is also the implication of James 5:11. With what was noted by Ezekiel, its interesting to see Noah and Job listed together---as Noah and Job are well-known righteous men of the past (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1)..and Noah existed before the era after the Flood. Its possible that Job either existed at the same time as Noah or came directly after Him. Just a thought, as it concerns those whom God chose to reveal His standards.

There were others who also followed the Lord as well outside of Abraham....as seen in how Melchizedek stood outside the covenant community and yet was a channel through whom God instructed his people. Genesis 14 is clear on how Melchizedek (king of righteousness) was a priest of the Most High....a priest-king linked to Jerusalem, seeing that "Salem" is possibly a shortened version of "Jerusalem" (Psalm 76:2) and is related to shalom, the Hebrew word for "peace" (Hebrews 7:2). ..



Jethro also comes to mind, though he's much farther removed from Abraham. As it concerns the view of the Midianites being "pagan" people ignorant of the ways of God, Jethro comes to mind since he stood outside of the Covenant Community...yet displayed uncanny knowledge of God. With Jethro, in Exodus 18, he was a priest of Midian (Exodus 3:1, Exodus 4:18)...and in light of the difficulty of both Egypt and the journey to Rephidim, Jethro's coming to meet Moses displays a relational posture of peace and encouragement, similar to when Aaron met Moses "at the mountain of God on his return from Midian (Exodus 4:27-31). Amazingly, after simply hearing about what the Lord had done on Israel's belalf, Jethro's words and actions represent a more faithful response than came from many of those who had experienced the events in Egypt (not to mention Egypt itself, as well as Amalek). For when he says, "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods" in verse 11, he echoes the purpose that the Lord said the plagues were to have for both Israel (Exodus 6:7) and Egypt (Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:15). When Jethro brought burnt offerings and sacrifices and ate before God with Moses, Aaron and the elders, he prefigured the pattern of life that the Lord would reveal further at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 12:5-7). Moreover, Jethro was used by the Lord to help him find a faithful and workable way to have others bear the burden of judging the people and ensuring their well-being (Exodus 18:13-26).

My private opinion, in view that I believe Gen. 10:25 correct as a Biblical historical narrative, is that at the time of the referenced scripture it seems to me that the ways of HaShem were available to humankind, that is His revealed, at the time, Instructions, may we call it Torah? I dunno. Did anyone follow such well? Well, seemingly not 'til Avram.

I agree with you concerning how the ways of the Lord were more widespread during the time of Genesis 10:25....and thus, for others who spread out, its possible that they took knowledge of God with them before the loss of centrality destroyed the information of HaShem being known to all...and thus, for Abraham, God chose to work with him where he was at. For some, its already the case that knowledge of what's found in the Decalouge of the Hebrews was the first....in light of Hammurabi's Code of Laws that appeared many years later.

I disagree in saying that we only know of Abraham who was seeking the Lord.

Someone mentioned in the foregoing posts that there were similarities between how the Jews were oppressed and how the AmerInds(North, Central and South Americas) were genocided. Of course there are similarities, the same general religious families did the oppressing. Guess who? Don't bother. Spanish catholics, Virginia Anglicans, Massachusetts and Connecticutt Calvinist Puritans, doesn't make any difference. Euro-Xtianity means death to us. Then everyone that followed from the effluvia of Europe. Manifest Deception anyone.

True enough..

I believe in a Yeshua that hasn't been dragged through the filthy vias di Roma. He's more credible as what He was, is, and ever shall be, A Jew. And I don't care for Paolo to water down His Word, or supercede His Authority.

Got ya...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As a tri-racial/cultural person I can say we of the Oyate Lakota have finally learned to not disclose any more of our ways, traditions and culture to outsiders, if we can help it. Enough has been stolen and exploited already. My dad's people are dying, all in the name of some Euro-god. Go home.

Sad to see the rampant destruction that has come forth when it comes to examining the many ways in which people have been hurt in the name of European assimilation...and even more heinous when done in the name of Christ.a

But thankfully, the Lord is still using those who are Indigenious peoples.

If interested, Richard Twiss is another one whom you may enjoy researching. One can find more about him at his ministry of "Wiconi.com." He is a Lakota Sioux member and Christian scholar. Very brilliant man who has an intense passion for seeing Indigenious peoples come to faith in Christ and knowing that their culture is of immense value to the Lord....especially as it concerns illustrating Biblical principles and evangelizing those who are Jewish. He wrote a book entitled "One Church, Many Tribes" which was one of the most thoughtful/biblically based books I've ever come across when it comes to the issue of God using those in Gentile cultures to proclaim His Glory just as He did consistently throughout the OT/NT ---whether that be in consideration of those who are God-Fearers or those who were not even saved (i.e. King Cyrus, Isaiah 47, Ezra 1, etc) for His purposes.

There was one incident where there was a conference for Indigenious peoples in the Holy Land---with Richard/the Dance Team he's apart of invited there by other Jews. In Israel, several hundred believers in Jesus Christ from all over the world made up the seventh "World Gathering of Indigenous Peoples."..and dressed in native costumes and worshipping through their unique cultures, they presented colorful portrait of things to come. Some went to the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem to talk with some of these native peoples, with Richard Twiss being among them....and he shared one of the most eloquent explanations I've heard about the former plight of indigenous peoples and how God is redeeming their place in the church worldwide.

They were at the Wailing Wall praying and many Jews noted how astounded they were by the faith that these Indigenious people had, as well as how much understanding of the Lord they demonstrated. Truly, its a picture of how others were holding palm branches in their hands." and glorifying God in their own languages (Revelation 7:9)



On Richard Twiss, Something interesting I thought he brought up once was how it seems that in Western/European culture's view of Christianity, anyone talking to animals was seen as "primative" or "evil"....yet for Indigenious peoples, it was not seen as an issue since all things were connected/didn't have to be seen as "rational." This in part is due to the extensive influence of Dualism in Western Christianity, where the material world and the natural are often seen as completely seperate and disconnected. However, its different for those who are not of that mindset. If an animal began talking to an Indigenious person, they wouldn't rebuke it. Rather, they'd ask what the animal meant since its not always assumed that the physical/material world cannot connect with the spiritual one and that only man has intelligent thought....and interestingly enough, the same happened before in the scriptures with Balaam when his donkey began talking to him in Numbers 22:21-33 in trying to protect him.



For more info, one can go online/research these articles under the following titles:

• "YouTube - Richard Twiss 1" ( //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qudZI5TMzM&feature=related )

• "YouTube - Richard Twiss 2 " ( ) ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ0CCCVZNk&feature=related )

• "Google Video: nations_and_tribes.avi" ( //video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5349839228347317874# )

• "The Work of the People: Films: Talking Donkeys" ( //www.theworkofthepeople.com/index.php?ct=store.list&keywords=Richard+Twiss&category=&category=0&option_0=0&option_1=0 )

• "YouTube - Richard Twiss: Avatar and Dancing With Wolves: Indigenous People and their Mythical White Saviors ..." ( //www.youtube.com/watch?v=llTBf_IVc8U )

• Richard Twiss: A Theology of Manifest Destiny

• Richard Twiss: The Biggest Problem

• Richard Twiss: Hope For the American Church

• Cornerstone 2009, Soong-Chan Rah(www.profrah.com ...

• Indigenous theologians discuss Christianity from a Native Perspective... ( YouTube - Indigenous theologians discuss Christianity from a Native perspective )

Also, for other resources/videos on what Twiss has said:

• The Work of the People: Films: My Neighbor's Music

• The Work of the People: Films: Wounded Indian

• The Work of the People: Films: Indigenous Liturgy

• The Work of the People: Films: Enjoying Gods Pleasures

Interesting, IMHO.

I possibly will try to read the OP post(s) and maybe give a more to the point reply, I've only had the most cursory look at them.

Would love to hear when you get the chance...

Even if there is a direct link, Jew and Native American(which does not include Hispanic), if there is, so what? I'm not really seeking an answer.

Personally, for many its an issue of connection.....in light of how often it has been attempted to make it out as if those in the world of Native America are simply "savages"/backward when many have noted how similar they are to what occurred in the scriptures. Moreover, it is an issue of showing how possible it is that cultures can indeed travel/cross over and that knowledge of the Lord's ways did not simply arrive when the Europeans landed in the Americas. There was a thread made directly on the issue last year that went into more depth on the matter...as seen in the thread entitled Messianic Jews on the Film "Avatar" & the Ascension of Yeshua. Thoughts?

As discussed in that thread, when the film "Avatar" came out, there were many Rabbis and others of Jewish background who actually supported the film admist accusations from others that it supported Native American theology that was counter to scripture-----for in their view, much of the theology within the film "Avatar" was very much connected with Jewish culture. Many find it interesting seeing many of the ways that the customs of Native American/First Nations people or Indigineous groups are very similar to what has occurred within Judaism.....as the implications are highly significant when it comes to Messianic Judaism and the camps within Messianic Judaism that either look down upon Gentiles or act as if nothing of culture outside of Judaism has any merit.

For myself, I also see implications within the area of Mixed individuals...in light of how many are of the thought that those of a Mixed background are not very respected and are forced to choose between worlds. It is a blessing to raise the level of awareness when it comes to realizing how many of Mixed backgrounds often are not reperesented fully.

For some info, one can consider an article such as Business | Native Americans And Jews: A Kinship Of Shared , concerning those who through intermarriage and kinship often intermingled into the Jewish culture. Praying that the information is of benefit. For myself, I think its significant to see how r in many tribes, they will not accept one who's mixed---much in the same way that many in the State of Israel have long been either discriminating against or refusing to allow certain groups to come home to Israel (i.e. Falasha, Ethopian Jews, Indian Jews, etc).

w and Native American(which does not include Hispanic)

To be clear, as you noted that Hispanics are not included in Native America, I would point out that many within Native America often went down into the West Indies/traveled there, mixing with the people. The same is in regards to those found within Central and Southern America, as the concept of Native Americas and Indigenious peoples is not simply related to what occurred in NORTH America. I am reminded of what occurred with the Olmecs.

The Olmecs have been mainly accepted as responsible for advanced civilization in the Americas....and the Mother Culture of all other Indigenious cultures in the Americas. Olmec heads, again called "Negroid Statues" in the 1920's when they were found, have continued to baffle many since they have features that simply do not reflect the culture of the Indigineous peoples in the Americas...and resemble the features of those in Africa more so.




And for more solid review on the history of the Olmecs, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:

• "Olmec Civilization - Crystalinks" )

• "The New York Times > Science > Mother Culture, or Only a Sister? ()

• "Artifacts Comparison between ancient Mesoamerica and China" ( )

• "The Olmec: The original Black civilizations of Mexico and Mesoamerica" ()

With those statues called the "Negroid" Statues that others have still been unable to understand, I must consider HOW many have indeed suggested that there was some connection with Africans and the Americas.


Claiming that the Negroid Statues in the Americas may be due to Transpacific influences is something that I have also been open to---and as it concerns other scholars saying that the statues came from Asian influence rather than African, that's something I'm more than ready to accept.

But many do not have an issue with seeing an African connection with those who are Native Americans and Indigenious peoples. Counter to what many have often noted, Columbus did not "discover" American since the Native Americans were already present.

I agree with others who say that many of the tribes were scattered all over the world after the multiple exiles that Israel went through, from I Kings 17 with Israel being destroyed to what happened in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Diaspora. I know that there have been many discussions on the issue of how many often remember what occurred with the Slave Trade/shipping others off from Africa to the Americas and the Carribbean Islands...yet not many are aware of the fact that many of those same Africans were already Jews. The African Diaspora was directly connected with the Jewish Diaspora....and though not as readily acknowledged in previous times, others have come to be more aware of Jews and Judaism in the African diaspora---as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D (as well as other times the Jewish nation was conquered) caused many of the Jews to be scattered all over---with Africa being one of the main places. Many Jews did not simply venture into Africa out of persecution, of course---as many were there LONG-before....but the history of African Jews is something to consider when it comes to those in the Caribbean/West Indies and what has occurred in the Americas.

With the Native Americans, the view that many of them may have been from other lands originally before coming to the America's is indeed worth noting if the same has been shown to be possible with other cultures coming across great differences and taking their cultural heritage with them into a new context. I know that one of the men I highly love, named Richard Twiss, noted how even in First Nations culture, there were reports of prophetic words given that indicated the arrival of whites and how they'd be bringing a new view that the First Nations peoples needed to have....and many have been under the mindset that the Native Americans already had God working in their culture long before the Europeans came along to bring them news of Christ. In many ways, Native Americas already had a greater reverence for God --the Great Spirit---though others may've misunderstood them since many cultures in the Americas were Panentheistic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This has always facinated me. stevenmcollins.com/html/decalogue_stone.html
Along with other things attributed to the Hebrew presence in North America.

Fascinating article--and I'm surprised that many more people are not aware of it.

The Los Lunas Stone is one of the greatest examples of how other cultures have often intermixed with the Hebraic and yet many may not be aware of it. Though I don't agree with all of the conclusions of Steve Collins, I've appreciated many of the things he has noted---especially as it concerns Two-House Theory.

On the issue of how the Hebraic mixes in with other cultures, it really amazes me to consider how often others are not able to discern when a Hebrew presence is around due to how we've been trained to see it.


One Jewish man was telling me of how people can pick him for a Jew walking down the street, because perhaps he fits a stereotype a little easier than others, but he knows one guy of Asian decent who converted and people always assume he is a Muslim when he wears his kippah. But, to the Jews, he is a Jew and that's all that matters. His kids will be Jews. According to halacha, he is kosher and that's the bottom line. Many are not aware of how Jews of a European background ( Ashkenazi Jews) are but one variation----the latest, to be exact, as European Jews were not always the majority or even in view historically. Most are unaware of the other groups of Jews such as Maghrebim Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews and other groups altogether. Additionally, due to the exaltation of Euro-Centric thought, its often the case where people of color /non-white backgrounds were often neglected and not really shown historically as connected with the Bible.





On the issue, however, it is interesting considering how many Indian Jews have often felt that they have been discriminated against by those who are European Jews due to their ancestry/customs in India. On the concerns of those who are Indian Jews, it is something not often discussed at all in the Body of Christ due to how European Jews are the ones who were considered the standard since the 1940' during WWII ....--and for more information, one can go online/look up the thread entitled "Cochin & Hindu Hebrews: Are most Messianic Jews familar with Indian Jewish Believers?" ( //www.christianforums.com/t7489741/ )

There was an in-depth book that I was recently able to read which shared more on the issue...entitled "Burnt Bread and Chutney":

"Burnt Bread and Chutney" is the story of Carmit Delman's experiences growing up as an outsider in a Jewish-Indian home in the American midwest and Israel. The child of an Indian Jewish mother, part of Bene Israel, and a father born in the U.S. of Eastern Europe parents, Delman seeks out her past to find where she fits in. As the author shared at one point when it came to the distinctiveness of their racial blend being a factor even among other Jews:

&#8220;&#8216;Why don&#8217;t you look Jewish?&#8217; people often asked us. &#8216;What does Jewish look like?&#8217; we wanted to say in return.

&#8220;Maybe if we had been accepted at face value as regular Jews, the sense of America would have been more natural. But from the earliest age I remember feeling different, even from the American Jewish community. So that brand of Americana, with New York&#8217;s Lower East Side of Yiddish and bagels and lox so thick in its veins, seemed unattainable to me also.&#8221;

&#8220;&#8216;Why don&#8217;t you look Jewish?&#8217; people often asked us. &#8216;What does Jewish look like?&#8217; we wanted to say in return. &#8217;Judaism is a religion, it is not a look.&#8217;&#8221;

&#8220;But they asked this because most of the Jews they saw around them in America were descended from Eastern Europe and they assumed that those people defined Jews all over the world. When we explained that we were the mixture of an Indian Jew and an Eastern European Jew, people automatically identified us by the brownness and what made us non-white. Their assumptions drew a distinct line between us and them.&#8221; ​

The book was very fascinating, as it concerns many of the traditions still practiced by those who are Indian Jews. One part of the book discussed how the Indian Jews in one camp were known for practicing polygamy still as did many of the patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc) and David did---thus angering others there.

In the &#8220;Kin, Not Kind&#8221; section of the memoir, the author went back one generation for a sobering glimpse of Nana-bai&#8217;s ( her grandmother's ) experiences growing up in Bombay (Mumbai) in the Bene Israel community. The Jews there are said to be descendants of the survivors of an ancient shipwreck. As the author explains in the preface, the Bene Israel &#8220;evolved quite uniquely, without many of the holidays, rituals, and rabbinic rulings introduced meanwhile in the general Jewish Diaspora. &#8230;They adopted the local language, Marathi, and manners of dress like the sari, along with some of the other Indian customs; they&#8230; mostly kept to themselves. They maintained the few ancient Jewish rituals which could be passed on.&#8221; At the same time, they absorbed Indian influences in prayer melodies and rituals, fasting, pilgrimages, and caste-like ways.

The prejudice and persecution that affected other Diaspora Jews was manifested differently in Western India. As the writer describes it, &#8220;Because they were not persecuted by non-Jews for their beliefs, the way that Jews in other countries often were, the Bene Israel achieved a solid relationship with the general Indian community and succeeded in the military, medicine, and the arts. They faced another kind of discrimination, however, because once they reconnected, the dark color of their skin and their centuries of isolation sometimes led other Jewish communities to look down on them and question their Jewish purity.&#8221;

Sadly, her grandmother's life was virtually ruined by subservience to her spouses, malicious gossip from female relatives, and the shame of unwanted polygamy. The author provides us with an astounding perspective on her great-aunt&#8217;s &#8220;dirty little secret&#8221;:

&#8220;Long ago in India, Nana-bai and the girl she grew up with as her sister were married at the same time to the same man&#8230; Most nights the husband stayed at the mansion with his first wife and children. He took them wandering about the city to enjoy fairs and music&#8230; since they were spoiled by his money, overfed and always needing to feed more, that household was filled with pettiness and arguing. And so the husband turned with other needs to Nana-bai, whom he kept moving from one hovel to another in the slums of Bombay&#8230; It was usually the first wife who maddened him, whining for trinkets and making fusses over the servants. But in the end, naturally, he came to the second wife to take out his anger&#8230; As it happens in small communities, all the Bene Israel soon knew about our family. First wife. Second wife. Who was favored. Who was beaten. And they, too, felt free to follow suit with their own snubs, preferences, and indignities.&#8221;​

Shifting forward to her high school years, Delman discussed how she spent summer vacations working on Israeli kibbutzim. Internally, she remained quite ambivalent about her preferred home

All of that is said in light of how often people will discuss who is or isn't "Jewish"....and yet there are so many variations that often get left out of the equation.


Also, seeing how often misrepresentation occurs with Indian Jews being truly Jewish, it occurred to me the other day how much the scriptures contain the first mention of Jews in connection with India. For in reading the Book of Esther, it cites decrees enacted by Ahasuerus relating to the Jews dispersed throughout the provinces of his empire from India to Ethiopia ( Esther 1:1-3 )...and as the Book of Esther also was written in light of how the Jews were previously in Exile and some didn't go back to Jerusalem as did others in the Book of Ezra.

With the empire of the Persian King expanding so vastly, many have noted that it is quite likely that there were Jews settled in the area named India in the Book of Esther. In the book of Esther, it details how the actual Jews were in provinces of Afghanistan, Pakistan and India---and it makes sense since the attack on Haman was going to take out Jews in the entire empire..and Jews everywhere decided to rise up, as seen in Esther 8:8-10 when it says the following:

5 "If it pleases the king," she said, "and if he regards me with favor and thinks it the right thing to do, and if he is pleased with me, let an order be written overruling the dispatches that Haman son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, devised and wrote to destroy the Jews in all the king's provinces. 6 For how can I bear to see disaster fall on my people? How can I bear to see the destruction of my family?"


7 King Xerxes replied to Queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, "Because Haman attacked the Jews, I have given his estate to Esther, and they have hanged him on the gallows. 8 Now write another decree in the king's name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king's signet ring&#8212;for no document written in the king's name and sealed with his ring can be revoked."
9 At once the royal secretaries were summoned&#8212;on the twenty-third day of the third month, the month of Sivan. They wrote out all Mordecai's orders to the Jews, and to the satraps, governors and nobles of the 127 provinces stretching from India to Cush. [a] These orders were written in the script of each province and the language of each people and also to the Jews in their own script and language.

10 Mordecai wrote in the name of King Xerxes, sealed the dispatches with the king's signet ring, and sent them by mounted couriers, who rode fast horses especially bred for the king.



​

Its a trip to see that the Israelites were in India--and because of that, its more than reasonable to see how legitimate the experiences of the Jewish Indians are....as the Israelites in India would have blended right in

For more info, one can go online/investigate the following articles under their respective titles:

• "Kerala Jews" ( //www.shalom2.20m.com/page3.htm )

• "Desicritics: Indians With Biblical Roots " ( //desicritics.org/2007/01/03/105519.php )

On a side note, I was reading at one point on Job 1:1 in discussing how Job was from the land of Uz. Considering the Asian people and how beautiful they are, I was amazed when learning of how there are some scholars who've advocated that Job was most likely an Asian. He was an Oriental chieftain, pious and upright, richly endowed in his own person and in domestic prosperity...and seeing that, it placed a radically different perspective on how characters in the Bible may've looked.


In the event you may be interested, there are some excellent articles on the subject of Asian Jews...specifically, those who are Chinese Jews. For more info, one can go online and investigate under the following:

• "Chinese Jews" ( //jewishwebindex.com/chinese_jews.htm )

• "China's Jews | Bible Discovered" ( //www.biblediscovered.com/jewish-hebrew-people-in-the-world/chinas-jews/ )

• "Are There Really Jews in China?: An Update" ( //www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/china.htm )

• "Chinese of Arab and Persian descent--ColorQ's Color Club" ( //www.colorq.org/MeltingPot/article.aspx?d=Asia&x=ChineseWestAsians#jews )

• "ORIENTAL ORIGINS IN THE BIBLE: A Bible study guide which reveals the origins of the Oriental people according to the Bible." ( //www.eifiles.cn/oo-en.htm )

Indeed, its the case that people will so often associate Jewish identity with white European Jews that the rest of the Jewish world, and the very origin of the Jewish people, are forgotten. For the ancient Hebrews came out of North AFRICA (Egypt) into West Asia (Israel). The vast majority of the world's Jewish population lived in North Africa and West Asia during the Middle Ages....and the major centers of Jewish learning were once in Africa and Asia. 3rd Century BCE Alexandria (in Egypt), with its high Jewish population, was "the greatest city in the Jewish world". Between the 3rd and 5th centuries CE, the Jewish academies of Babylon (in present day Iraq) established the system of Biblical commentary that came to used by the entire Jewish world, with the Babylonian Talmud remaining an integral part of Jewish scholarship even in modern times.

And yet the achievements and expanse of African and Asian Jewry are largely invisible to the rest of the world, even to fellow Asians and Africans


For more information, on the issue of Jews of differing cultures/ethnicities, there's actually a wonderful ministry seeking to deal with such...as one can go online/look up a ministry by the name of Be&#8217;chol Lashon .meaning "In Every Tongue"--which is a research and community- building initiative created by the Institute for Jewish & Community Research to support a Jewish people that is more racially, ethnically, and culturally inclusive, both in the United States and around the world. And it goes into exceptional detail concerning the many struggles for those who were of MIXED ancestry (i.e. Gentile/Jewish) and yet, due to stereotypes, they were considered not really "Jewish".

Also, for a good series/debates on the issue, one can investigate the following:

[video=youtube;suWNpeRSuKU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suWNpeRSuKU&feature=player_embedded[/video]​

 

[workman]

I just want to jump in if I may...

Initially when I read the topic of your post, I had assumed that you might be speaking from the Mormon perspective. Since the Mormon religion claims that the whole teaching of the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith and covers how Jesus came to the Americas and preached to the Indians...

"Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel..." as the very beginning of the book of Mormon reads.

The beginning introduction on the very next page reads, "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas..."

Just so its clear to all observing this post, this is not what you are proposing correct?

In case someone might consider using the info written in these previous posts as proof of a connection to Mormonism, it has been clearly proven that the Book of Mormon is a false book based on Joseph Smith's deceptive imagination and not on actual facts. For example, he made a goof in one of his prophetic writings that say that Jesus was to be born in Jerusalem (not in Bethlehem as actual history reveals). Mistakes and contradictions can be found both like that as well as mistakes in the geography, history, and lack of findings in archeology to support the book's claims.

The second paragraph at the beginning of the Book of Mormon also reads,

"An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven-Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers: and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever..."


So I just thought it would be important to make mention of that here in case anyone might see a connection that was not implied. I won't argue the points here since this is not a debate forum, but if someone was curious I am sure they could find more good reasoning from other posts on the topic in a search on Mormonism within Christian forums website.

Promoting peace and unity in truth,

Workman

 

[rsduncan]

I read OP and I started thinking...





































...LAMANITES!!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just want to jump in if I may...

Initially when I read the topic of your post, I had assumed that you might be speaking from the Mormon perspective. Since the Mormon religion claims that the whole teaching of the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith and covers how Jesus came to the Americas and preached to the Indians...

"Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel..." as the very beginning of the book of Mormon reads.

The beginning introduction on the very next page reads, "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas..."

Just so its clear to all observing this post, this is not what you are proposing correct?

In case someone might consider using the info written in these previous posts as proof of a connection to Mormonism, it has been clearly proven that the Book of Mormon is a false book based on Joseph Smith's deceptive imagination and not on actual facts. For example, he made a goof in one of his prophetic writings that say that Jesus was to be born in Jerusalem (not in Bethlehem as actual history reveals). Mistakes and contradictions can be found both like that as well as mistakes in the geography, history, and lack of findings in archeology to support the book's claims.

The second paragraph at the beginning of the Book of Mormon also reads,

"An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven-Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers: and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever..."


So I just thought it would be important to make mention of that here in case anyone might see a connection that was not implied. I won't argue the points here since this is not a debate forum, but if someone was curious I am sure they could find more good reasoning from other posts on the topic in a search on Mormonism within Christian forums website.

Promoting peace and unity in truth,

Workman

Thanks for sharing the posting. To be clear, I'm not arguing from a Mormon perspective since I do not support Mormonism...even though it may be the case that are aspects of the Truth that Mormons may hold to just as Christians or Messianic Jews do. And when it comes to believing that differing tribes of Israel or Hebrew culture were scattered to other parts of the world, I don't think it'd take one being Mormon to agree with the sentiment that there are many everywhere whom the Lord seeks to witness to.

The OP subject can be one that generates much controversy. For many are under the mindset that any topic of Jewish backgrounds being connected with anything remotely tied to Native American culture is akin to what those in Mormonism do when taking what Jesus said in John 10 about "sheep in other folds" to mean North America. I disagree with those thinking such, of course.

 

[aniello]

Yep, Lamanites, or so the fairy tale goes, but don't forget the Nephites. The Lamanites were we dark skinned rebels who wiped out the Aryan Nephites, all nice fair skinned, blond, blue-eyed Ubermenschen, I would suppose. As I think someone mentioned, where is any archeological evidence? I'm not looking for an answer. Such rubbish. Baptizing for the dead, sealed marriages, and on and on. First met them in my undergrad days, first roommate was one from Pocatello ID. Nice guy, a bit too obsessed over his Temple Garments and the pasties on the shirt. We, of the Howi Wacipi religion had our ghost shirts, Wovoka probably brought the idea. Anyway, ghost shirts aren&#8217;t bullet proof. Got him to pledge my fraternity, took him to Juarez on our biennial Booze(and drug) Voyage, got him drunk and laid, the next year he went on his 2 year "mission". Anyway he related the story of their Moroni-c angel, the story of the Lamanites vs. the Nephites, I realized the message was aimed at me, so I reminded him of an event known as the "Mountain Meadows Massacre". Mormonism, Bah!

They do have one biblical virtue in that among themselves they practice community. They have a welfare society called Deseret, IIRC. That part is a good thing, for them.
Christians should practice what is found in Acts 2 and Acts 4, community-wise, as far as I'm concerned. Probably the "church" will get a grasp of the thing as America continues on its inevitable decline. Hehaka Sapa and Mahpiya Lute had a few notions along that line over a 100 years ago. "Black Elk Speaks" is in print. The words of Red Cloud are not written, but carried in certain of our hearts. Only this. We are in stage 6 and headed, inextricably, into 7. Happily there is 8. Strangely paralleling "a thousand years is like a day" to the L-rd, perhaps, in a way. No more to say. In a bittersweet way, I am enjoying the show. It's sad but amusing, can't explain why, just watching the boundless pride of the past get its due reward. To me sad, I have grandchildren.

Mormonism keeps trying to insinuate itself into the rezes our group is working with faith wise. We have had to extricate them(NAs) from the false religion that catholo-protestant-ism(s) have brought, Mormons, JWs and now P-islam is attempting to make inroads. We try to teach Torah-based and Messiah has come and is to return again type faith, but faith that produces "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Not mere mental ascent. But most NAs are communal, though "christian civilization" has nearly wiped it out. And so we are called "Judaizers, legalists, socialists, etc." and the like. We will survive. A sense of community still exists in Judaism, at least where we live. Not as strong as it was during WW II, in Kansas City MO, in our Jewish neighborhood that my uncle lived in, but many are waking up and remembering.

Richard Twiss(Wiconi means life) and years ago Terry LeBlanc, Native pastors. Have sort of lost track of them over the years. Richard gets accused of syncretism and such. I've heard Terry accused of animism, possibly, I don't know. Twiss is now in Washington state and LeBlanc is in NS, NF or somewhere in very eastern Canada, last I knew. Perhaps I&#8217;ll call his place in Vancouver, Wa. sometime and find out where he&#8217;s at Jewish wise. Guess he&#8217;s more favorable now than years ago, dunno. Far as I know they&#8217;re ok.
Years and years ago Richard, iirc, had very good advice as to how to reach Natives, or whoever, went like this: &#8220;Don&#8217;t preach them, Teach them&#8221;.



Had court stuff most of week, pooped, more tomorrow. Easy G, will try to get to your interesting posts over week-end, I hope. Perhaps I'll drown in the MO mikvah.

Peace to all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Richard Twiss(Wiconi means life) and years ago Terry LeBlanc, Native pastors. Have sort of lost track of them over the years. Richard gets accused of syncretism and such. I've heard Terry accused of animism, possibly, I don't know. Twiss is now in Washington state and LeBlanc is in NS, NF or somewhere in very eastern Canada, last I knew. Perhaps I&#8217;ll call his place in Vancouver, Wa. sometime and find out where he&#8217;s at Jewish wise. Guess he&#8217;s more favorable now than years ago, dunno. Far as I know they&#8217;re ok. .

Richard and others thinking there's value within Native Cultural forms have often been accussed of sycrentism---despite the fact that they've made clear that anything that is not counter to the Word is not evil...and "extra-biblical" doesn't mean "Anti-biblical" since the Bible only discussed one form of lifestyle that was not exhaustive. They didn't have internet, media or T.V ...but we don't have a problem utilizing those for the Gospel since they are apart of our cultural heritage. Its the same with Native culture.

It often seems that the phrase of Jew and Gentile together in Messiah often seems to be hollow when it seems that one culture is not celebrated as another....and perhaps it'd be possible to see other places of beauty in Messianic culture become more realized rather than seen as theorectical alone if others were exposed to what's out there. As it concerns the OP, I'm reminded of some American Indian dances referred to me by another "First Nations" Christian..a Lakota Sioux who follows Christ. They really amazed me. For more info, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:

YouTube - Wiconi Family Camp 1

YouTube - men vs women smoke dance in Tonawanda 08


YouTube - a celebration in dances

Inaugural World Christian Gathering of Indigenous People ( YouTube - Inaugural World Christian Gathering of Indigenous People )​

If there was a synagouge where Messianic Jews were alongside Gentiles in the Native American world, there should be NO issue whatsoever with one group being allowed to do some of the dances they've done in their world to glorify the Lord. I know of a church called the Covenant in Texas and every year they perform interpative dances in their native culture but glorify the Lord with it. Would any of you go into Korea and say &#8220;Hey you have to change your culture to a biblical culture (which is mostly Western) or your worship is not of God.&#8221; What about Africa where the Gospel has been preached and they still paint their faces and perfrom dance ceremonies for the Lord? Would you label that wrong? Would you say it does not belong in God&#8217;s house? What about Somoa where they where Somain clothing still do their chants but they glorify God. What often seems to happen in responses others give to differing cultures is seen in the statement &#8220;the way I worship is correct and other cultures need to either conform or will be written off as wrong&#8221;. That is sin, IMHO---for how is that Revelation 5:9 and Rev 7:9

Once we say &#8220;our worship&#8221; is superior to the way others worship we have crossed the line. My heart hurts here because what I am seeing is a people group with a superiority complex. If some were to become world missionaries you would have a rough time because you couldn&#8217;t draw the line between culture and essentials. Once we judge something outside of biblical parameters we can easily become useless to reach that culture

Years and years ago Richard, iirc, had very good advice as to how to reach Natives, or whoever, went like this: &#8220;Don&#8217;t preach them, Teach them&#8221;.

Amen...and I'd add, don't teach them to be like you but to be like Jesus.

Had court stuff most of week, pooped, more tomorrow. Easy G, will try to get to your interesting posts over week-end, I hope. Perhaps I'll drown in the MO mikvah.

Peace to all

Thanks for all the thoughts you've shared thus far.

 

[aniello]

OP originally stated was:

"Native American Jews: What do Messianics Think of Torah in the New World?"

After having looked in a bit more detail at the voluminous mat'l presented and a certain other thread and the general tenor of such, my generalized summary of my thoughts on Torah are thus:

Within the Light of the Renewed Covenant, the Torah is foundational, given by G-d, authoratative and, insofar as possible, to be obeyed,as G-d empowers us. Hope I said it ok.

Anyway, with this, I am done.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This has always facinated me. stevenmcollins.com/html/decalogue_stone.html
Along with other things attributed to the Hebrew presence in North America.

On the Los Lunas Decalouge, Archaeolinguist Cyrus Gordon once proposed that the Los Lunas Decalogue is in fact a Samaritan mezuzah, though this is hotly contested. For more, one can find his work entitled "Diffusion of Near East Culture in Antiquity and in Byzantine Times," Orient 30-31 (1995), 69-81.

For some good review:

• The Los Lunas Inscription
  
  
• Los Lunas - Turning Right at the Burning Bush
  
  
• 
  Global Warming & Terra Forming Terra: Los Lunas Decalogue Stone
  
  
  ​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Los Lunas Decalogue Stone Photograph Dan Raber, Loudon TN [/FONT]​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Within the Light of the Renewed Covenant, the Torah is foundational, given by G-d, authoratative and, insofar as possible, to be obeyed,as G-d empowers us. Hope I said it ok.

Thanks for sharing...