Modest Dress for Women.

[bèlla]

How did her husband get in?
What does this have to do with him?

I thought the question was fairly obvious. If her behavior is inappropriate and they live under the same roof what is his response (if any) to what's occurring? It's unlikely he's clueless. He has eyes like the rest. The same holds true for the child. If her mother is dressing her suggestively how has he responded?

That was Genesis in action. I'm looking for Adam. If she's off the rails order must be restored and that's his job. That doesn't minimize her culpability. But he needs to step up to the plate. There's a child involved.

~bella

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, I do feel that these outfits are inappropriate to wear in public. Nightwear is for wearing at home. Underwear is for wearing under one's clothing. That's why it's called underwear.

I'm glad to hear that. So the length of the skirt matters, and some lengths are inappropriate - indecent - for Christians... at least if one is not in the privacy of their home.
Thank you.

Sometimes the fabric matters more than the length. How does it hang? Is it clingy and/or easily seen through?

Sometimes.
Thank you again, because when you said "any of [the lengths I posted] can be modest", my hair stood on end.
I am thinking to myself... Well that's not important now.
Glad to know you didn't give that much thought at the time.

I'm interested in hearing then, why you think the skirt that is six inches above the knee, is inappropriate, and if you think the skirt 2, 3, 4, and 5 inches above the knee is any different, and why, or why not?

The dress I am referring to is about six inches above knee length, with a lined skirt, but I still wear something under it. I might wear it with shorts, but usually leggings. View of my legs is not the problem. The possible visibility of my underwear is.

What's the difference between a shorts and a panty, under a mini skirt?
Is the message sent, not the same in both cases, since the men can see neither, unless... ?

Wearing a bathing suit at a public beach or pool is a different matter. I don't bare my midriff, but that's only because I'd look like the Pillsbury Doughboy if I did. A midriff in and of itself, I don't have a problem with, as long as the parts higher and lower are sufficiently covered. The thing is to make sure a bikini isn't too skimpy, and the fabric is thick and sturdy enough not to be seen through even when wet. Some embellishments and cutouts are meant to draw attention, and I think that's inappropriate. It's not wrong to wear a bathing suit, but it is in my opinion wrong to wear one that is designed to attract focus and direct the eye to where the woman darn well deliberately wants the eye to go. Ever see a woman in a bikini that covers only enough to keep her from being arrested, with strategically placed strings, rings, or netting to reveal as much skin as she can get away with? She knows what she's doing. It's a deliberate ego-stroking game of "I'm better than you because I'm younger and prettier and sexier. I can't help it if I look good in this, and you don't. You only disapprove because you're fat, old, ugly, and jealous." NOTE: This in no way gives anyone the right to go at a woman because "she's asking for it." Yes, as I suspect, she is drawing attention to herself on purpose. No, that doesn't mean anyone is entitled to answer her advertisement.

I agree there are modest bathing suits, and immodest ones, and you are right, some are skimpy to an extreme, and some are skimpy but the designer gets away with the subtle inappropriate missing pieces, which some professing to be Christian are happy to wear.

Romans 14:13 says not to put a stumbling block, of any kind, in someone else's path. This includes a woman using tantalizing body language to tempt a man. Women of course can't choose their hip structure, but they can and do choose their heel heights, well aware of how it's going to affect their walk. The higher the heel, the more the sway, and that's exactly what they're going for.

Nice scriptural reference.

That's an interesting bit of information you just shared there.
The only problem with it, is that we could begin to judge sisters of being cunning, when they might not be, but simply wearing the heels because they like the style.
Also, they may not have a husband to tell them, "Honey. You look real good, in those heels, but... your hips are saying more than you and I want them to say."

 

[CoreyD]

This is a different type of discussion, than "You shall not murder a human being."

The entire paragraph holds together, and it is in the context of worship.
It is also in the context of the roles of men and women (including authority,
and bearing children).

The interesting thing is that Paul does not separate these contexts. And, he
explains some of what he means by modest and decent dress for women, in
CONTRAST to the upper Roman class that flashed about its wealth (and at
this time, was also known for its promiscuity).

The paragraph is not about modest dress for women -- it is about appropriate
behavior for men and women in the congregation (in worship). This is a discussion
of what behavior is appropriate, BEFORE GOD, and is not particularly a discussion
of what we would call "modesty".
---------- ----------

I don't think that Paul's guidelines are minimal, or fixed. I think that Paul would add
many more instructions, for congregations that were in populations of pagans who
regularly engaged in all sorts of lavish and wild gatherings. (He does not mention women
covering their head, here.) It is curious that Paul would mention men praying, without
quarreling or anger, lifting holy hands in prayer. I would say that this is a basic instruction
that the worship of the Christian God is not done in wild parties and shouting, but in
order and peace.

This passage is not what modern American Christians want it to be.
It is not a simple formula for how modest and decent women are to dress.

Whatever behavior is not seemly, in the worshipping of God, should be understood
to be forbidden, in the congregation. Paul's teaching is certainly NOT the modern
American feminist assertion ("It's my body -- keep your laws off my body!"). For
Christians, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and they DO NOT BELONG
TO US.

This also means that I cannot assert that part of my "identity" is to dress like....
Our identity is the children of God, and we must conform to God's standard of
modesty and decency, in all sorts of ways. There is no room in the People of God,
for those who identify as something other than a child of God. And this means that
our dress, and behavior, and hair styles, all need to conform to God's standards
of decency.

It's not a simplistic standard.

But, at certain points in the Bible, the biblical authors clearly state what
is NOT appropriate for godly worship, or godly behavior in the congregation.

You are so right about identity.
Even persons who do not necessarily practice Christianity, are aware of this.

I was searching for information that shows, the way we dress, is actually part of our behavior, and I came across, this item:

You Are What You Wear​

The type of clothes you wear – and the kinds of accessories you use to either jazz them up or tone them down – says a lot about who you are, where you’re from, what you do and how you feel about yourself and others.

In fact, dress scholars Mary Ellen Roach and Joanne Eicher, find that dress is one of the main ways we send social signals because what we wear shows our identity.

You said, though, "
The paragraph is not about modest dress for women -- it is about appropriate
behavior for men and women in the congregation (in worship)."
Can you clarify? Were you considering the paragraph only, and not the sentences in the paragraph?

1 Timothy 2:9
New International Version
I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

Paul said, "I also want the women to dress modestly". That's about modest dress for women, isn't it?

 

[CoreyD]

Heels don't make you sway. Swaying is the result of build and flesh. If you have a fuller bottom, hips or thighs you'll have more movement. Excess weight creates a similar problem. It can also be the result of a poor gait which can be corrected. The Princess of Wales lives in heels and never sways. Her body type and training maintain her gait and minimize movement.

II am in agreement with you here.
Heels might more make a woman wobbly.

Every portion of a woman's body can be camouflaged. The majority don't dress for their body type and there's limitations to premade clothes. It won't address everything. You have to go to a tailor or work with someone who sews who knows how to draft a pattern and let them make you a dress and stand in a 4-way mirror and take a photo and then you'll see the difference.

The industry standard is an hourglass and dress forms look like Barbie. That's what they're sizing from. But there's a number of companies who've created sewing patterns based on different body shapes. Only 8% of women are hourglasses. The majority are something else. When you wear clothes suited for your body type there's a better fit. Many women learn to sew for that reason.

Good points.
Better to make your own, or find a sister that's a seamstress.
The world is sinking like the Titanic - fast. Standards are continually declining, lower and lower.

 

[bèlla]

Good points.
Better to make your own, or find a sister that's a seamstress.
The world is sinking like the Titanic - fast. Standards are continually declining, lower and lower.

Making your own clothing is less expensive in the long run. But the upfront costs are greater and demonstratively more if you're overweight. That's the catch-22. Your weight needs to be stable and ideally you've reached the right point. There's a 10-15 pound threshold. Anything beyond that point and the garment won't fit.

If you hire a seamstress you're looking at materials + labor. Some are willing to do it for special occasion pieces like a wedding or prom dresses. But everyday items would add up. Learning to sew is an option and you'll pick it up faster through a class than alone. If you have the resources you can have a lovely wardrobe. Made to order is an option. Not quite bespoke but customized.

There's a lot of people who sew who don't sew for others. It's best to work with a professional if you go that route. In respect to believers, they may not admit it to avoid requests. You'll be bombarded and they assume they'll save money and underpay.

~bella

 

[CoreyD]

I missed this part:

I hadn't even noticed, but thanks for addressing it.

Tight mini skirts and crop tops at a funeral? Especially in the middle of winter? Of course I thought it was inappropriate, and so did most people in attendance.

I thought that was normal.

Even not considering modesty, it was 20 F degrees, -6 C for those outside the US.

Some people like cold showers.
Some sit in ice. Haven't you seen this?
Then there is this: Ice Swimming
Swimming Naked In Freezing Water: Europe’s Trendy Winter Adventure
Although swimming naked in cold water during the hardest days of winter could seem like an activity for the brave at heart, it’s growing into a trend and gaining momentum every year among everybody over the age of 16 around Europe.

In addition to its daring quality and the simple thrill, the main reasons for the popularity of what’s known as ‘Viking style swimming’ are the mental and physical health benefits attached to one or two minutes at a time of immersing into freezing water.

The teetering high heels are further inappropriate for an eleven-year-old girl, whose skeletal system is still forming. Many women can attribute their current foot problems to the overwearing of high heels in their younger years. It at least shouldn't be done until the skeletal system is completely developed and has stopped growing.

It's good that you are concerned about the child.
If you were friends, or family, you might be in a position to help her.

I do believe their outfits would have also been inappropriate in summer, as this was a religious service conducted by an ordained minister. The outfits they wore were better suited to a night club than to a funeral.

You seem concerned about it, and this is understandable, since it's not dress befitting a Christian. In other words, it doesn't identify the individual as a real Christian.
This is not surprising to millions of people around the world. It's actually a common feature, especially at funerals.

Why not view it as it really is, though.
Christianity of this world isn't about decorum. It's quite different to what Jesus started.
If you ask a million people in a crowd, if they are Christian, you'll likely get a "Yes" from most. What makes them Christian? "Just believe in Jesus Christ."

You well know, you will find some of these in politics.
However, when you listen to the words coming from their mouth, and observe their behavior, does it match what they identify as?
What did Jesus say... "By their fruits..." You know the rest. Matthew 7:16
If we view it in the right light, we would neither be surprised nor disturbed, but rather, it would be what we expect.

You're right thought. They do dress like they do, when they go clubbing.

In the case of this particular mother and daughter, however, the way they dressed for the funeral was the same way they usually dressed for any church service, and I for one don't think it's right. Although I suppose it's better to see them go to church dressed for a night club than to not go to church at all.

True.
What we would hope to see happen, is that they learn what it means to be a follower of Christ and the teachings he gave his disciples.

I think you have a good heart, being concerned about people.
I like that. Some persons couldn't care less about what other people believe or think. Which is really sad.

 

[CoreyD]

God is only concerned about your heart. Your soul. Clothing is non important to God..

Some people think this way. However, the Bible reveals something quite different, and comes as a surprise to many people.

Was the way Adam and Eve were dressed, important to God?
Genesis 3:7, 21
Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.
And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments [כְּתֹנֶת kethoneth or kuttoneth : a tunic] of skins and clothed them.

Tunic
Mesopotamia

Greek

Medieval times

Was the dress of God's people Israel, important to him?
The Israelites were commanded on how to dress, especially those serving as priests.
I don't have time at hand right now to dig for those scriptures. Perhaps later.
They were required to bathe and keep clean also.

Jesus wore a fine garment. No doubt he was interested in dignifying his father - the great king, who deserves honor.. John 19:23

For a number of reason, God shows that he is concerned with clothing. Matthew 6:30
Not only because of the message they send to the wearer, and onlookers, but also because God dignifies his creation. They are precious to him.

We are precious to God.
He blessed Job, lifting him out of the ash heap, and clothing him with dignity.
He does the same for the lowly and the poor. Acts 2:45

Yes. The heart more than anything is important to God, because out of it comes forth what is within - including what we desire to wear., but clothing does matter to God.
Matthew 15:18; Luke 6:45

 

[Paidiske]

How did her husband get in?
What does this have to do with him?

It is worth noting that some men coerce their women into sexualised dressing. It's a form of abuse, but it happens.

Better to make your own, or find a sister that's a seamstress.

Honestly not a practical option, for many/most women.

As for what other people believe or think, that one can be fraught. There's taking feedback in a way that's healthy and helpful. And then there's allowing people's opinions to take over your own taste and good sense. As a mother of a daughter, I want to help her learn to avoid both extremes, and the pressure from the world to be a certain way, look a certain way, perform a certain way, is far more of a problem, than the temptation to reject any helpful comment.

 

[CoreyD]

We should be careful about lying on the Lord. There's enough video footage depicting the inappropriate attire that has entered the House of God to silence any suggestion that He wouldn't mind.

Perhaps you're unbothered.
Maybe you haven't seen the same.
Or you don't like the subject.

That's cool. But what isn't okay is when you apply your thinking to the Most High. Because He's holy with a capital H.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

~bella

Thank you bella.
When we want to do what we want to do, any counsel, or meaningful discussion on the subject is unimportant.
Humility is a quality we should strive to acquire.
We do not go to sleep without it, and wake up with it.
Likewise, renewing of our mind by changing the way we think, calls for the right heart - a humble one.
Romans 12:1,2

 

[CoreyD]

Making your own clothing is less expensive in the long run. But the upfront costs are greater and demonstratively more if you're overweight. That's the catch-22. Your weight needs to be stable and ideally you've reached the right point. There's a 10-15 pound threshold. Anything beyond that point and the garment won't fit.

If you hire a seamstress you're looking at materials + labor. Some are willing to do it for special occasion pieces like a wedding or prom dresses. But everyday items would add up. Learning to sew is an option and you'll pick it up faster through a class than alone. If you have the resources you can have a lovely wardrobe. Made to order is an option. Not quite bespoke but customized.

There's a lot of people who sew who don't sew for others. It's best to work with a professional if you go that route. In respect to believers, they may not admit it to avoid requests. You'll be bombarded and they assume they'll save money and underpay.

~bella

I'm thinking of Dorcus in Acts 9.
Having the Christian spirit, as described at Acts 2:45, sisters who are seamstress, would gladly help out their sisters in the faith.
Also, the grateful sisters would gladly help the seamstress out.
So, all the sisters are winners.

 

[Paidiske]

Having the Christian spirit, as described at Acts 2:45, sisters who are seamstress, would gladly help out their sisters in the faith.
Also, the grateful sisters would gladly help the seamstress out.
So, all the sisters are winners.

Perhaps one woman in a congregation might be a competent seamstress (I think, in the four churches I look after, there are perhaps two; and their age and failing abilities mean they don't sew very much any more). She does not have the time or capacity to clothe all the other women. It is right and and proper that she set boundaries around her help.

The idea that this is a reasonable expectation for all of us is really unrealistic.

 

[bèlla]

I'm thinking of Dorcus in Acts 9.
Having the Christian spirit, as described at Acts 2:45, sisters who are seamstress, would gladly help out their sisters in the faith.
Also, the grateful sisters would gladly help the seamstress out.
So, all the sisters are winners.

Americans are accustomed to lower prices for clothing. When you're producing at scale you can bring them down but that isn't possible for consumers. They'll pay more for fabric and materials. There's a difference between sewing as a hobby and being a professional seamstress. The majority aren't and every body is different. Accommodating figure flaws and deformities requires additional skills.

And there's the time factor too. It isn't a two hour job. From start to finish you're looking at ten or more hours depending on the garment. Labor is the greatest expense. That's what's problematic. A person who doesn't sew cannot fathom how much time it takes to make a shirt, skirt, dress, slacks, etc. Not to mention the fittings. Bespoke clothing is costly for a reason. It's a premium service.

What you're envisioning is more prevalent in communities where most women sew like the Amish and Mennonites. Their clothing isn't difficult to make and dress is standardized. Everyone can do it. But that isn't the case for the church as @Paidiske shared. There's not enough to meet the demand. Nor is there a culture for handmade garments. They'll get more for their money in stores. There are several small businesses who focus on modest attire. Prices vary and that's another option.

If a church desired the same they'd have to hire an instructor who provided classes. You'd have to develop the skill within the congregation and nurture the ones who stick with it. Introductory classes are plentiful but numbers lessen as advanced topics are covered. That's true for any craft.

~bella

 

[Paidiske]

There are several small businesses who focus on modest attire. Prices vary and that's another option.

An option I use a bit is to buy from an online retailer who will tailor to their customers' measurements. Each piece is adjusted for the individual buyer, but because they do many, they still have economies of scale. I pay a bit more perhaps than I would for off the rack, but tend to think it's worth it. But I would pay a lot more to get someone to make something for me, from scratch.

 

[CoreyD]

I thought the question was fairly obvious. If her behavior is inappropriate and they live under the same roof what is his response (if any) to what's occurring? It's unlikely he's clueless. He has eyes like the rest. The same holds true for the child. If her mother is dressing her suggestively how has he responded?

That was Genesis in action. I'm looking for Adam. If she's off the rails order must be restored and that's his job. That doesn't minimize her culpability. But he needs to step up to the plate. There's a child involved.

~bella

Your question wasn't unclear. It was obvious, of course, which is why I addressed it for the reasons I mentioned.
It's good that you consider the headship arrangement God put in place.

However, whether the man is a believer or not, the womans spirituality is still her own. So, how she decides to dress cannot be blamed on her husband.
She also has a responsibility to know what God's requirements are, and live by them.
Grown children too, need to make worship of God, their own. Their choices of frieds cannot be blamed on their parents, nor a decision to leave the faith.

Interestingly, Eve didn't blame Adam. It was the other way around.
The individual who knows what is right or wrong, is solely responsible for doing what is right. Otherwise, it is a sin for that person. James 4:17
So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin.

The apostles set this precedent for all Christians, at Acts 5:29 - We ought to obey God rather than men.
Although under the authority of the governmental rulers, they refused to obey an order that was in conflict with God's requirements. Even if doing so meant death for them.

A woman under the authority of her husband, is under obligation to obey God rather than her head, if his 'demands', or wishes are in conflict with any requirement of God. Whether it be in dress, sexual intimacy or anything else.

She also has a responsibility towards her children, in this regard.
Abigail was praised for taking responsibility - going against her husband - which resulted in saving, not only her household, but her relatives, and friends. 1 Samuel 25:32, 33
She got a better husband too.

 

[CoreyD]

It is worth noting that some men coerce their women into sexualised dressing. It's a form of abuse, but it happens.

If the husband is an unbeliever, and coerces his wife into prostitution or theft, she is still responsible for any action she carries out.
Blaming her husband does not relieve her of that responsibility, even in dress.
The former, are a matter for the police. The later, is a matter for the responsible men in the congregation - the elders.
See here.

Honestly not a practical option, for many/most women.

That's true.

As for what other people believe or think, that one can be fraught. There's taking feedback in a way that's healthy and helpful. And then there's allowing people's opinions to take over your own taste and good sense. As a mother of a daughter, I want to help her learn to avoid both extremes, and the pressure from the world to be a certain way, look a certain way, perform a certain way, is far more of a problem, than the temptation to reject any helpful comment.

That's true too.
There are extremes, and there is balance. The latter is always the best choice.

 

[Paidiske]

If the husband...coerces his wife...she is still responsible for any action she carries out.

It's not that simple. We need to have a good understanding of the realities of abuse, in all its forms, and not blame the victims.

Not that I am saying that is what was happening in the situation LoveBirdsFlying was describing, but that we need to be aware of the fact that we don't know what's going on in other people's marriages, and alert to the possibility of abuse.

 

[CoreyD]

Perhaps one woman in a congregation might be a competent seamstress (I think, in the four churches I look after, there are perhaps two; and their age and failing abilities mean they don't sew very much any more). She does not have the time or capacity to clothe all the other women. It is right and and proper that she set boundaries around her help.

The idea that this is a reasonable expectation for all of us is really unrealistic.

True. It wouldn't necessarily work out in all congregations. Just some.
This is largely due to how the present system is structured.

 

[Paidiske]

This is largely due to how the present system is structured.

Personally, I'm very grateful that we don't have to do all this ourselves, and are able to benefit from large-scale industries freeing us up to do other things with our time!

 

[CoreyD]

It's not that simple. We need to have a good understanding of the realities of abuse, in all its forms, and not blame the victims.

Not that I am saying that is what was happening in the situation LoveBirdsFlying was describing, but that we need to be aware of the fact that we don't know what's going on in other people's marriages, and alert to the possibility of abuse.

Yes, I agree we have to consider there are weak women in the congregation, who need help spiritually. That's what the elders are there for. James 5:14

 

[Sunflower39]

I’d like to ask a question to the people who have posted here who feel the need to judge women based on their clothing…

How do you know that the woman walking down the street wearing the short skirt is not more of a committed Christian than you and I are?

Maybe you and I fall short in areas she doesn’t.