Men listening to women teach the Bible!

[iwbswiaihl]

These verses show that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to say what He meant and what was to be applied in this area of life as all scripture teaches us to be obedient to the word of God. It's just like when someone ask how should a woman or man dress when going to the church building or out in public, ask yourself before you start getting dressed: who am I trying to impress, God or bring attention to myself! Let your conscience be your guide and if its not according to the word of God, that will tell you by your conscience and that is bearing witness from the Holy Spirit, unless the conscience is hardened(seared) as was Pharoah's.

1 Cor 14:34the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

1 Tim 2:11-12 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he(God) said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Easter 1:20 "So when the decree made by the king is proclaimed throughout all his kingdom, for it is vast, all women will give honor to their husbands, high and low alike.”

Numbers 30: 7-8 and her husband hears of it and says nothing to her on the day that he hears, then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he opposes her, then he makes void her vow that was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she bound herself. And the Lord will forgive her.

Numbers 30:13 Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void.

 

[lismore]

The main concern that comes to mind is with declining numbers (and most areas of growth being amongst more liberal/charismatic groups, many of which having female preachers) is that by remaining static in an evolving society and world, Christianity continues its slow decline. Increasing flexibility and allowing one thing (even if it's to the perceived benefit of Christianity itself) opens the door to other things being acceptable too, to which end it becomes more of a philosophy than a prescribed and inspired set of instructions deemed to be the way of godly living.

Hi Fidelity! Interesting post. One thing we have to remember is that we're living in the last days. As the bible says in the last days dreadful times will come, 2 Timothy 3, faithful Christians and Churches that stand for the truth will find themselves under attack on dozens of issues, including social, as the world around us moves further on the road to hell.

Shifting the goalposts to align with the world and blur the distinction between the church and the world may seem to bring a temporary reprieve of this pressure.

But it does not change the truth. We're not of the world. God Bless

 

[pescador]

These verses show that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to say what He meant and what was to be applied in this area of life as all scripture teaches us to be obedient to the word of God. It's just like when someone ask how should a woman or man dress when going to the church building or out in public, ask yourself before you start getting dressed: who am I trying to impress, God or bring attention to myself! Let your conscience be your guide and if its not according to the word of God, that will tell you by your conscience and that is bearing witness from the Holy Spirit, unless the conscience is hardened(seared) as was Pharoah's.

1 Cor 14:34the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

1 Tim 2:11-12 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he(God) said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Easter 1:20 "So when the decree made by the king is proclaimed throughout all his kingdom, for it is vast, all women will give honor to their husbands, high and low alike.”

Numbers 30: 7-8 and her husband hears of it and says nothing to her on the day that he hears, then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he opposes her, then he makes void her vow that was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she bound herself. And the Lord will forgive her.

Numbers 30:13 Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void.

True Christians are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

That's not hard to understand, is it?

BTW, this is not 1st Century CE. Women are no longer uneducated household servants.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

True Christians are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

That's not hard to understand, is it?

BTW, this is not 1st Century CE. Women are no longer uneducated household servants.

The Galatians 3:28 is not on topic here, that verse is saying what you stated at the end of it, we are all one in Christ, men and women He did away with neither, we are born male or female, regardless of what some claim in our today. Not saying anything concerning your views on this post.
1 Cor 11:9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Every tub sets on its own bottom is my favorite saying, I will to follow scripture, and the ball is in your court for your response, have a great day.

 

[pescador]

The Galatians 3:28 is not on topic here, that verse is saying what you stated at the end of it, we are all one in Christ, men and women He did away with neither, we are born male or female, regardless of what some claim in our today. Not saying anything concerning your views on this post.
1 Cor 11:9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Every tub sets on its own bottom is my favorite saying, I will to follow scripture, and the ball is in your court for your response, have a great day.

Your response is very strange! I follow Scripture, not your interpretation. I don't accept your opinion that Galatians 3:28 is not on topic here.

Again, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Your response is very strange! I follow Scripture, not your interpretation. I don't accept your opinion that Galatians 3:28 is not on topic here.

Again, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

We are all one in Christ, not in Peter is the point, he is not the Rock, but a pebble or little stone it was his profession of Christ which the church is built upon to enter Christ and receive salvation because He paid our sin debt and set us free from condemnation. He is our righteousness not Cephas, a little rock or pebble. Catholic have been disagreeing with scriptural view from their start, its nothing new. Have a great night.

 

[The Liturgist]

While the specific situation described in the OP sounds acceptable, since women generally can be ordained as Readers or Deaconesses or commissioned as Lay Readers in the traditional churches, I myself prefer to hear men when it comes to this subject. That being said I have no objection to women reading or intoning scripture. And while historically the Deaconess is a Minister of the Font, whose role was to assist in baptisms, unlike her male counterpart who is a Minister of the Chalice, whose role is to assist in the distribution of the Eucharist, since Deacons traditionally reas the Gospel and in the Byzantine Rite, intone the Litany (something done by Clerks in some Western churches, for example, the Lutheran Church of Denmark), I see no reason why Deaconesses should not do the same, since it is reading, chanting and liturgical recitation, and not teaching, nor the exercise of authority.

I am curious as to what my friend @Carl Emerson feels on the matter.

 

[HARK!]

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[Carl Emerson]

Being invited to post and having skim read the posts so far - I have a few thoughts.

The Corinthians were converted from a pagan culture in which women served as priests.

This was in contrast to Judaism.

So it seems, what Paul was correcting, was a matter of carrying spiritual authority, but not in submission.

Paul singles out women following the pagan tradition of being spiritually dominant.

Mind you this equally applies to men and that complicates the issue.

Men have abused their role in the Church and in the family.

I am reminded of these words of Jesus...

“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles domineer over them, and those in high position exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wants to become prominent among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever desires to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” Matt 20

These words apply equally to women and men...

Back in the 70's when we were strongly impacted by a Wind of the Spirit and the Church was exploding in numbers, the issue of Female leadership and authority came up as house groups were forming very fast.

So the women got together and prayerfully sought God about whether they should accept the role of elder. They then reported back to the Pastor that they were in complete agreement, that it was not appropriate for them to seek to carry spiritual authority in the Church. At the same time they led outreach initiatives very effectively.

Now there are females very gifted in understanding and teaching Scripture - this to me is a seperate issue. I see no problem with them sharing their inspiration as long as they are rightly related to appropriate authority and the hearers are listening informally.

The waters have been muddied by males dominating in the flesh in some cases, so that the order of authority in the family and in the Church gets a bad press.

There are matters women are created to do well and vice versa.

These differences should be celebrated sensitively without venturing into legalism.

Sadly the scripture above has often not been heeded.

 

[RileyG]

I do not believe women are called to ordained ministry but can serve the Lord in other ways. Personally, depending on your interpretation of "teaching" the bible, it can or cannot be ok. In an academic setting, for instance at a Christian University, that's totally fine. IMHO.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

These verses show that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to say what He meant and what was to be applied in this area of life as all scripture teaches us to be obedient to the word of God. It's just like when someone ask how should a woman or man dress when going to the church building or out in public, ask yourself before you start getting dressed: who am I trying to impress, God or bring attention to myself! Let your conscience be your guide and if its not according to the word of God, that will tell you by your conscience and that is bearing witness from the Holy Spirit, unless the conscience is hardened(seared) as was Pharoah's.

1 Cor 14:34the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

1 Tim 2:11-12 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he(God) said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Easter 1:20 "So when the decree made by the king is proclaimed throughout all his kingdom, for it is vast, all women will give honor to their husbands, high and low alike.”

Numbers 30: 7-8 and her husband hears of it and says nothing to her on the day that he hears, then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he opposes her, then he makes void her vow that was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she bound herself. And the Lord will forgive her.

Numbers 30:13 Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void.

1. A question I have for people who accept this understanding is why do you say these these texts are UNIVERSAL & binding, instead of Cultural and Circumstantial. The text never says they were ment to be Universal. That is a decision made by the reader and a meaning that is not in the text.

2. Why dose it seem that this texts contradicts the work of the New Covenant. In spirutual matters what is the point of having a male head in place of Christ. Why do women have to go through there husband to get to Christ? The whole point of headship after the fall was protection, not domination. The whole point of the New Covenant is to make it so the law is written in the heart and you walk in HIS ways and do them.

3. What do you do with the passages of scripture that contradict this interpretation
a. Christ teaching Mary
b. The holy spirit given to women, including the spiritual gifts? which include pastor?
c. what do you do with the new postion of Husband & wife teams in the NT & early church: Prycilla & Aquilla, Annania & Sapharia, Junia & Andronicus.
d. An Elder must be married & only to 1 wife. This being the model set forth in Genesis and restored in the NT.
e. What do you do with the fact that Christ is the NEW ADAM and the Church is the New Eve?
f. What do you do with the 2000 year track record of Christianity and the abuse of women. Dose that not factor in to any of the ways you read and apply the scripture?
g. How do you say to women, come to the Christ, come to the Church. Where you get no say, you do all the work. & you get to be a slave. We will treat you however we want. How do you sell that to women?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

1. A question I have for people who accept this understanding is why do you say these these texts are UNIVERSAL & binding, instead of Cultural and Circumstantial. The text never says they were ment to be Universal. That is a decision made by the reader and a meaning that is not in the text.

2. Why dose it seem that this texts contradicts the work of the New Covenant. In spirutual matters what is the point of having a male head in place of Christ. Why do women have to go through there husband to get to Christ? The whole point of headship after the fall was protection, not domination. The whole point of the New Covenant is to make it so the law is written in the heart and you walk in HIS ways and do them.

3. What do you do with the passages of scripture that contradict this interpretation
a. Christ teaching Mary
b. The holy spirit given to women, including the spiritual gifts? which include pastor?
c. what do you do with the new postion of Husband & wife teams in the NT & early church: Prycilla & Aquilla, Annania & Sapharia, Junia & Andronicus.
d. An Elder must be married & only to 1 wife. This being the model set forth in Genesis and restored in the NT.
e. What do you do with the fact that Christ is the NEW ADAM and the Church is the New Eve?
f. What do you do with the 2000 year track record of Christianity and the abuse of women. Dose that not factor in to any of the ways you read and apply the scripture?
g. How do you say to women, come to the Christ, come to the Church. Where you get no say, you do all the work. & you get to be a slave. We will treat you however we want. How do you sell that to women?

I would think that all who say they are Christian would believe that the whole bible is inspired by God to be written and all those who are truly Christian would believe the word of our Lord. 2 Tim 3:14 But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you have learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. So, do you believe these verses are for all Christian? You ask this: Why do women have to go through there husband to get to Christ? Where did you find that passages in the bible? If you are talking about this one or one like it: Ephesians 5:22-28. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, … So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. It is self explanatory, the husband is head of the home as Christ is head of the church, meaning it seems to me, if an issue came up where the two did not completely agree, the wife would submit to his understanding. As in the text I show, it says what it says, so why would anyone want to know if they had to obey what it says? Most issues in a family are normally worked out, but for conscious sake the word of God should be obeyed. If this issue comes up and the wife says she will not submit to what her husband state as the final decision, I would think if she knows what the Lord says in the scriptures, I would simply tell her if your conscious doesn't convict you that you are wrong, I would leave it in His hands to convict her. Each of those other questions you ask would make for a very long post, besides, questions must be more specify and showing where you get your answers in scripture would help greatly. If you would like to continue on this topic, please show where you got your answer in the scriptures, making sure the answer is in context. A lot of people give their one sentence from the bible and in context it doesn't apply to their final conclusion. Not trying to make a rule for what you can write, but hopefully show that if there is no scriptural evidence, how can the answer be scriptural? Like your first question you asked: A question I have for people who accept this understanding is why do you say these texts are UNIVERSAL & binding, instead of Cultural and Circumstantial. You mean to say that every time a text says something is what the Lord expects from His children it doesn't apply to all his children in the faith.
Doesn't make sense to me that unless the context is specifically stated for a select person or group it surely is universal, context would apply. An example of what you mean would help me, general statements or questions not specific are hard to answer. thx

 

[iwbswiaihl]

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I would think that all who say they are Christian would believe that the whole bible is inspired by God to be written and all those who are truly Christian would believe the word of our Lord. 2 Tim 3:14 But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you have learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. So, do you believe these verses are for all Christian?

this is an invalid line of reasoning a logical fallacy. you are appealing to authority to avoid answering the question. This is not weather the Scripture is God's word. The issue is weather a person or group of people have interpreted and applied the scripture properly. This is a short cut answer
"If you believe in the Word of God you will listen to me", Uh No. you are a human being who is capable of misunderstand and drawing the wrong meaning and conclusion out of a passage. I will not listen to you if I think you are wrong and have erred. you would do the same.

As to the exaustive diatribe of headship in the home. that is not an issue up for debate it is a red-herring. what is at issue is why one conflates head-ship in the home with head-ship in the church. That makes no sense.

Like your first question you asked: A question I have for people who accept this understanding is why do you say these texts are UNIVERSAL & binding, instead of Cultural and Circumstantial. You mean to say that every time a text says something is what the Lord expects from His children it doesn't apply to all his children in the faith.

No

Doesn't make sense to me that unless the context is specifically stated for a select person or group it surely is universal, context would apply. An example of what you mean would help me, general statements or questions not specific are hard to answer. thx

do you believe that head coverings are suppose to be worn? Yes or NO. I say no, because it is cultural. Head covering were they way a woman showed she was a moral and virtuous woman. So Paul is saying be associated with Morality and virtue. In that culture it meant to cover your head.

the same applies to women being quiet in church. There were cultural consideration to be taken into account. one of the issues was temple prostitution. Women in the ancient world had very limited options for public life, they could not participate in business, politics, government, or education. They could however participate in religion, some times as vestal virgins, but more often then not as prostitutes. A women in a religious role was consider a prostitute. So naturally this would be a problem for Paul. if the body of Christ were to get a bad reputation today we would say to the people stop giving Christ a bad reputation. That is the context of him telling the women to sit down and be quiet, remember the temple of Artemis, the goddess of fertility, was in Ephesus and they tried to kill Paul now the church is being associated with it. if you can't kill the messenger destroy the reputation of the message.

 

[DragonFox91]

My parents' church hired a lady they're calling 'pastor' to lead the music & outreach. My Baptist ties would be against that, but she’s technically replacing a lady who’s retiring who didn’t have the pastor title. We'll have to see how it goes.......I know at a church growing up, when they hired a woman HEAD pastor, it started the downfall of the church & eventually led to it closing its doors for good.

The head & associate pastors are men.

 

[ServantJohn]

Recently had this question as well. I'm a conservative continuationist going to a AoG church. My wife is also conservative and wears a head covering in church. Sometimes the pastor's wife or another lady that goes there give the message to the mixed congregation. I don't agree with them teaching the mixed congregation, but will still be open to learning what I can. I thought about walking out or just not going when I knew a woman was going to be preaching, but the sin (hopefully in ignorance) is theirs, not mine.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is this okay?

We have to consider the context in which 1 Corinthians 14:34 appears. It is all about prophecy and tongues, and not about the issue of women making other types of contribution to a church service. One idea was that married women were questioning prophetic words in church, disrupting the flow of the service. This is why Paul says that women should keep silent in this respect and to wait until they get home and ask their husbands the questions. Because Paul is referring to married women, his comments may not apply to single women in the church.

In the Timothy reference, Paul says that women should not usurp authority over men in the church. The context was that there were dominating women who were overruling the authority of the elders and causing problems, hence Paul's instruction to Timothy. I see nothing wrong with a woman contributing to a church service under supervision from male elders. There is the question whether a woman can be a pastor or an elder, but in the context of being a member of a moderating group of male leaders it could be possible.

 

[ServantJohn]

...

 

[StillGods]

well if men aren't going to step up and teach leaving a gap that a woman fills then that's on them.

 

[ServantJohn]

Mike Winger did the best study on this topic I have ever seen. Probably the best study I've seen on any biblical topic. It's many long videos, but it's a great resource covering the major literature from both sides and tackles most all of the major arguments. Spoiler, he comes to a "soft complementarian" view.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ3iRMLYFlHuBtpJlwi7F5JYw3N5pKyLC