Mary Mother of Jesus, not of God.

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The founders of the Roman church were the same ones that declared Scripture alone, Sola Scriptura, was not adequate to defend itself against alll heresies, and so they then were able to bring in the 'Sacred' tradition outside of Scripture, ever-virgin Mary and Mother of God, to 'combat' Arain's heresy.

The “founders of the Roman Church” were Peter & Paul, neither of them advocated for Sola Scriptura what they did advocate was Prima Scriptura which means that the scriptures are the ultimate authority, not the only authority.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The “founders of the Roman Church” were Peter & Paul, neither of them advocated for Sola Scriptura what they did advocate was Prima Scriptura which means that the scriptures are the ultimate authority, not the only authority.
What other "authority" did you have in mind, and how well does it compete with God's own word?

By the way, I believe that both Peter and Paul did value the authority of Holy Scripture, but never said anything about "Tradition" (the alternative favored by certain churches) being the equal of God's word.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That could be argued, but Original Sin is believed to be the fate of all mankind, thanks to Adam's sin (barring divine intervention if anyone wants to believe in the Immaculate Conception), and all humans are descended from Adam. It's not something that's inherited genetically.

The reason those churches you mentioned say that Jesus was sinless is because he did not lose his divine nature by taking on human nature, and God does not and cannot know sin.

Personally I don’t believe that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature at all but instead that we are all created with the capability to sin and will at some point fall victim to sin because it’s just inevitable. Adam & Eve didn’t have to inherit their sinful nature from anyone they were created with it because they possessed free will which is what enabled them to sin in the first place. I like the way St Iranaeus explained it in Adversus Haereses.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What other "authority" did you have in mind, and how well does it compete with God's own word?

The Holy Spirit, the original author of the scriptures. Does He not guide us in matters that are not explicitly explained in the scriptures? That’s exactly what He did with the apostles before, during, and after they wrote anything. He hasn’t stopped.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Personally I don’t believe that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature at all but instead that we are all created with the capability to sin and will at some point fall victim to sin because it’s just inevitable.
If you wish, but my reply wasn't addressing your personal beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The Holy Spirit, the original author of the scriptures.
You mean, I take it, the individual believing whatever he wants to believe...and ascribing it to the Holy Spirit. :doh:

The Holy Spirit, being God, will never countermand or alter God's revelation given in Holy Scripture.

It should be obvious to all believers that God will not set his own guidance aside with supplementary inspirations given to individuals as opposed to the whole church.

On the rare occasions of the Holy Spirit advising men directly, that act STILL cannot and does not set Scripture aside, cast it in a new light, or replace it. And it is the authority of Scripture that is our topic here.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,664
27,063
Pacific Northwest
✟738,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother and birth-giver of God. Because Jesus Christ is truly, fully, and entirely both God and man in His single and undivided Person. And He, the Eternal and Divine Person, God the Son and Word, became man and was conceived in Mary's womb and born of her, flesh of her flesh.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ. Which makes Mary the mother of God.

This is not giving glory to Mary, but to her Son, who is our Lord and God.

In doing this do we also honor Mary? Yes. Yes we are honoring Mary--not by glorifying her, but by glorifying her Son. We honor her by confessing the truth that she cherished in her heart (Luke 2:19), by joining with her in glorifying and confessing her Son. And the words of the Scriptures are fulfilled, "all generations shall call me blessed"--she is blessed because she, the highly favored one, was chosen by God to be mother of Incarnate Deity.

Denying that Mary is the mother of Christ-God is not a defense against Marian hyper-devotion; on the contrary it is an attack against the central truths of the Gospel.

If Jesus is just God wearing a human skin-suit playing shadow puppets, then the Gospel is in its entirety meaningless faff.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
By the way, I believe that both Peter and Paul did value the authority of Holy Scripture, but never said anything about "Tradition" (the alternative favored by certain churches) being the equal of God's word.

All church teachings are tradition. Some traditions have scriptural support and some do not. Mary mother of God has scriptural support, her perpetual virginity does not. I don’t subscribe to all traditions of the church, some I choose to remain neutral on. Like in the case of Mary’s perpetual virginity we don’t know for sure according to the scriptures. I know Matthew 1 says Joseph “knew her not until she gave birth to a Son” but that word translated to “until” doesn’t always mean that it did take place afterwards. So all we really know according to the scriptures is that Joseph didn’t know her sexually before Jesus was born, anything after that is purely assumption.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No not at all
Why not? I've read hundreds of posts in which someone says that God (often identified as the Holy Spirit) allegedly spoke directly to them and gave doctrinal advice not supported by the Bible. I expect that you have read such claims as well.

You may be saying "Not those," but who's to say that one person's claim of a direct revelation from the HS is real while someone else's claimed experience is nonsense or just an over-active imagination?

When the authority of God's word in Scripture is undermined, the gates are thrown open to all sorts of claims by all sorts of people.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I was referring to what is called "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition," which is the theorywhich some churches promote as their alternative to Sola Scriptura.

Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition can be any ancient teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why not? I've read hundreds of posts in which someone says that God (often identified as the Holy Spirit) allegedly spoke directly to them and gave doctrinal advice not supported by the Bible. I expect that you have read such claims as well.

You may be saying "Not those," but who's to say that one person's claim of a direct revelation from the HS is real while someone else's claimed experience is nonsense or just an over-active imagination?

When the authority of God's word in Scripture is undermined, the gates are thrown open to all sorts of claims by all sorts of people.

The only way we can know if a divine revelation is falsely claimed is by checking to see if it contradicts scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition can be any ancient teaching of the Catholic Church.
Maybe so, although the term refers only to the ones that have been officially proclaimed to be God's guidance operating through this alternative to Scripture.

What is claimed as God's truth via Holy Tradition is usually just tradition (custom, opinion, folklore, etc.) if it even qualifies as that.

Nevertheless, this is what is claimed as equal to God's word given in Scripture.

So if Holy Tradition doesn't match up to divine revelation and what some individual says he heard the Holy Spirit tell him personally doesn't qualify...

what exactly IS supposed to be the "other" guidance that is as good as -- or better than -- the Bible??
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The only way we can know if a divine revelation is falsely claimed is by checking to see if it contradicts scripture.
That would hardly do the job. What you are saying is "anything goes" UNLESS it is specifically ruled out by Scripture.

That is not an alternative to Scripture; it's a formula for doctrinal chaos.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That would hardly do the job. What you are saying is "anything goes" UNLESS it is specifically ruled out by Scripture.

That is not an alternative to Scripture; it's a formula for doctrinal chaos.

And sola scriptura isn’t? And I never said that individual divine revelation should be taught as doctrine. For that individual it may be strong enough evidence to be considered doctrine but it shouldn’t be taught in the church as doctrine. Just because a revelation can’t be verified don’t necessarily mean it is false either. For example let say that I received a revelation that on the day The Lord returns a basketball will fall from the sky landing on my head and start spinning counterclockwise we have no way of knowing if that will happen or not but it doesn’t negate the possibility that it may be true. It’s not something we should teach as doctrine but you can sure bet that if that event ever did take place that I would drop to my knees and begin praising God immediately. So whether or not we can prove a revelation to be true or not is irrelevant but if it can’t be proven or at least supported by the scriptures then it shouldn’t be taught as doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And sola scriptura isn’t?
Absolutely not.

But you have to know what Sola Scriptura IS and what it SAYS before posing your question.

Sola Scriptura means that there is no authority on essential doctrine equal to God's revelation in what we call The Bible.

Sola Scriptura does not guarantee that every last reader will interpret God's word correctly.

But then again, none of the alternatives you raised do that either. In fact, there is no bit of knowledge that every last person agrees with.

So the "different interpretations" rebuttal is a mistake. Sola Scriptura says that God's word in Scripture is the ultimate authority on essential doctrine. It isn't the answer to how to bake cookies and it isn't the authority on how many candies should be lit during a worship service, etc. Sola Scriptura is about the relationship of God to Man and nothing beats God's word. Nothing mentioned so far in this exchange does, that's for sure.

You were suggesting alternatives to Sola Scriptura, and I pointed out that none of them, not a individual's brainstorm attributed to the Holy Spirit or a church proclamation that this or that custom from somewhere in the past is, ergo, the word of God operating through men's imaginations. And with such as these, the different interpretations are just as numerous as the different readings of The Bible.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,907
7,470
Dallas
✟905,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sola Scriptura says that God's word in Scripture is the ultimate authority on essential doctrine.

No that is the definition Prima Scriptura not Sola Scriptura. Sola scriptura is the idea that the scriptures are the ONLY authority hence the word “Sola” which means alone.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No that is the definition Prima Scriptura not Sola Scriptura. Sola scriptura is the idea that the scriptures are the ONLY authority hence the word “Sola” which means alone.
Sorry, no. The following will help straighten that out:

What is prima scriptura? | GotQuestions.org

Prima--as the word suggests--holds that Scripture is the first authority among a number of others. Prima, first.

I never said that this is what Sola Scriptura says or is all about, and (more importantly) it's not.

Sola Scriptura means that it is the only one that is definitive.

In addition to the definitions given in the above link, note this application of the principle called Prima Scriptura--

"Early Catholicism developed a belief in prima scriptura. The Catholic Church used its government-sanctioned monopoly on biblical translation, interpretation, and doctrinal formation to advance the idea that, in addition to the Bible, church leaders and tradition were also authoritative sources of divine revelation."

What's more, the policy described above was, and is, made to seem more legitimate by the church referring to Scripture as being PART OF so-called Holy Tradition! This makes the traditions described in the paragraph above be of first importance or primary authority!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0