Mary is the Queen Mother of the Church whom we can ask to intercede for us.

[Athanasias]

Well Here is my proposal. Its for serious dialogging only and not egotistical debate. The Topic Is "Mary is Queen Mother of the Church and asking for her her intercession is a good idea". Its a Very Jewish idea. It would be a short dialog but would have to be friendly and prayerful(no anti-Catholics allowed). I think this Jewish understanding of Mary will help some see the bigger picture of her in scripture. If interested hit me up.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well Here is my proposal. Its for serious dialogging only and not egotistical debate. The Topic Is "Mary is Queen Mother of the Church and asking for her her intercession is a good idea". Its a Very Jewish idea. It would be a short dialog but would have to be friendly and prayerful(no anti-Catholics allowed). I think this Jewish understanding of Mary will help some see the bigger picture of her in scripture. If interested hit me up.

Very interesting topic.

 

[Strathos]

I wasn't aware that Jews had any particular reverence for Mary

 

[Athanasias]

I wasn't aware that Jews had any particular reverence for Mary

I was not either. LOL

 

[Athanasias]

Very interesting topic.

Thanks. Hopefully someone will take me up on the offer for a prayerful dialog on this and other marian issues as there is so much that most people are unaware of when it comes to reason for believing these things from a traditional, Jewish, and biblical understanding.

 

[Chris12]

I am a new Christian - but the Holy Spirit has been teaching me a lot. I am getting pretty fairly well versed in scripture, and often HE gives me the words to speak when I am speaking about HIM.

So.. I will take you up on it. I am absolutely clueless about the topic, so I have no preconceptions and no biases.

I come from the Islamic faith to Christianity through dreams and visions. If you would be willing to have dialogue with myself, then I am happy to join you. Islam (Shia islam specifically) does have a background in the belief of intercession - so its not a background of hatred for the topic in general from which I come.

I will take the opposed position, since you appear to have the pro side covered - if this is to be a prayerful yet formal debate / dialogue.

Of course, if you do not wish to discuss with me then you can politely decline, and I will take no offense.

 

[Athanasias]

I am a new Christian - but the Holy Spirit has been teaching me a lot. I am getting pretty fairly well versed in scripture, and often HE gives me the words to speak when I am speaking about HIM.

So.. I will take you up on it. I am absolutely clueless about the topic, so I have no preconceptions and no biases.

I come from the Islamic faith to Christianity through dreams and visions. If you would be willing to have dialogue with myself, then I am happy to join you. Islam (Shia islam specifically) does have a background in the belief of intercession - so its not a background of hatred for the topic in general from which I come.

I will take the opposed position, since you appear to have the pro side covered - if this is to be a prayerful yet formal debate / dialogue.

Of course, if you do not wish to discuss with me then you can politely decline, and I will take no offense.

Sounds awesome my friend. Sure that sounds wonderful! I am grateful to meet a new convert like yourself and to have this opportunity. I have always loved the name Chris too btw.

I look forward to a prayerful respectful dialog. We can ask Mark to set it up. God bless you.

In Christ the king through Mary the Queen Mother,

Athanasias

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am a new Christian - but the Holy Spirit has been teaching me a lot. I am getting pretty fairly well versed in scripture, and often HE gives me the words to speak when I am speaking about HIM.

So.. I will take you up on it. I am absolutely clueless about the topic, so I have no preconceptions and no biases.

I come from the Islamic faith to Christianity through dreams and visions. If you would be willing to have dialogue with myself, then I am happy to join you. Islam (Shia islam specifically) does have a background in the belief of intercession - so its not a background of hatred for the topic in general from which I come.

I will take the opposed position, since you appear to have the pro side covered - if this is to be a prayerful yet formal debate / dialogue.

Of course, if you do not wish to discuss with me then you can politely decline, and I will take no offense.

Sounds awesome my friend. Sure that sounds wonderful! I am grateful to meet a new convert like yourself and to have this opportunity. I have always loved the name Chris too btw.

I look forward to a prayerful respectful dialog. We can ask Mark to set it up. God bless you.

In Christ the king through Mary the Queen Mother,

Athanasias

Chris, Athanasias,

Please decide what stipulations you would like; and I can set this up for you guys.

 

[Chris12]

I have no need for stipulations outside of biblical scripture to back up thought, logic can also be used, but only alongside scripture.

As it is written:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Also, none of the apocryphal books can be used. Although, if any of the Qumran texts have something that backs up scripture it can be used alongside scripture.

I have no other need or thoughts.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have no need for stipulations outside of biblical scripture to back up thought, logic can also be used, but only alongside scripture.

As it is written:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Also, none of the apocryphal books can be used. Although, if any of the Qumran texts have something that backs up scripture it can be used alongside scripture.

I have no other need or thoughts.

That can be one stipulation, providing that Athanasias agrees with it.

We always set up things like who starts first, how long the posts will be, how many posts, time allowed between posts, and references. Please see here: Formal Debate Proposals Guidelines

 

[Chris12]

I assume the references should be the sources I already stated, as this is a religious topic. I cannot see abiding by anything else, or that anything else source-wise would be acceptable due to the nature of the debate.

But Athanasias should begin, since this is his debate request - all other considerations can be his; time limit, thread title ect. As I said, I have no specific needs other than the ones already outlined.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have no need for stipulations outside of biblical scripture to back up thought, logic can also be used, but only alongside scripture.

As it is written:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Also, none of the apocryphal books can be used. Although, if any of the Qumran texts have something that backs up scripture it can be used alongside scripture.

I have no other need or thoughts.

BTW, portions of what are known as the Apocrypha were found among the Qumran texts.

 

[Chris12]

BTW, portions of what are known as the Apocrypha were found among the Qumran texts.

I do understand that. This is why I am saying only when it backs up scripture that is not Apocryphal..

I have a reason I cannot personally accept the apocryphal texts. Most of Islamic thought is found in it.. and Islamic thought is false. I cannot accept them as a result.

The bible being the True Word of God was told to me by the Holy Spirit, so I accept this wholeheartedly as I believe HIM and trust HIM. I have not been told the same concerning the apocryphal texts, however.

Also, since this is a teaching debate, it is good to only accept what is accepted by all. This way, no matter how it goes, can be accepted by all.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I do understand that. This is why I am saying only when it backs up scripture that is not Apocryphal..

I have a reason I cannot personally accept the apocryphal texts. Most of Islamic thought is found in it.. and Islamic thought is false. I cannot accept them as a result.

The bible being true was told to me by the Holy Spirit, so I accept this wholeheartedly as I believe HIM and trust HIM. I have decidedly not been told the same concerning the apocryphal texts, however.

That is an interesting idea, which I have never heard before. That sounds like another good topic for discussion.

 

[Chris12]

That is an interesting idea, which I have never heard before. That sounds like another good topic for discussion.

Yes probably so someday..

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Well Here is my proposal. Its for serious dialogging only and not egotistical debate. The Topic Is "Mary is Queen Mother of the Church and asking for her her intercession is a good idea". Its a Very Jewish idea. It would be a short dialog but would have to be friendly and prayerful(no anti-Catholics allowed). I think this Jewish understanding of Mary will help some see the bigger picture of her in scripture. If interested hit me up.

You and I have already covered this topic in a past Formal Debate which is still listed on the Board. Do you remember that Mary doesn't want to assume roles which only God the Father is capable of carrying out such as answering the prayers of Christians simultaneously ?

 

[Athanasias]

I have no need for stipulations outside of biblical scripture to back up thought, logic can also be used, but only alongside scripture.

As it is written:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Also, none of the apocryphal books can be used. Although, if any of the Qumran texts have something that backs up scripture it can be used alongside scripture.

I have no other need or thoughts.

I will tell you what. I have no stipulations either. Certainly I will make a biblical case for this Catholic and historical understanding so no worries there. Since this will be a prayerful dialog and not a debate what I will do is present the Catholic teaching as I would to my students and then allow a dialog to occur. Like some students you may find the evidence powerful and logical or you may disagree with it and you will be free to politely say why or why not. In these dialogs its not so much about winning or loosing but rather prayerful respectful dialog with one another and learning from one another.

So I can start if Mark is ok with that. I will try to keep it simple, well, as simple as I can because whole books and courses have been taught on this subject in universities. So I will stick to the meaty parts. I have no stipulations other then politeness and charity even when we disagree.

It can go as long as the dialog last and we get tired of dialoging. I have will put no length perimeters on each post. And I will allow each counter post to take as long as one wills(Heck Mark and I have been dialoging for 6 months and its been fun). I know life can get in the way of these and each post from each person needs to be read and digested prayerfully and considered and restudied eventually.

Now most of what I will present will be from the bible and from the books that Catholic and protestants both share(which is most of it) We may disagree on what is "hidden" or apocryphal as many Christian like Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have 7 extra books in the OT that we believe are deutrocanonical and inspired fully. But for the most part those are not needed at all in this dialog. As a Catholic I do not limit myself to only the bible nor do I think the evidence should be limited to just that when we have a whole history of the early Church and Jewish understandings from the sacred tradition. Many other Christians including Lutherans and some other protestant like episcopalians and Anglicans would also agree with this so I will mostly use scriptural text(I promise) but I also will demonstrate also the other evidences from the tradition (history of the early christians) which seem to be based off of Jewish understanding in retrospect. So I will also present one or two links(not much) to the Jewish understandings on some of this by Rabbi's so we can see the whole picture as I believe that the Catholic faith and Church in its being and doctrines are the historical and biblical fulfillment of Judaism. But yeah like 98% of what I will present will be scripture from the old and new testament and that will be most of the meet. I include the other small evidence to exist for other onlookers who may want to see a fuller picture of evidence.

If Chris is ok with this I would love to start.

God bless you.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[Chris12]

I will tell you what. I have no stipulations either. Certainly I will make a biblical case for this Catholic and historical understanding so no worries there. Since this will be a prayerful dialog and not a debate what I will do is present the Catholic teaching as I would to my students and then allow a dialog to occur. Like some students you may find the evidence powerful and logical or you may disagree with it and you will be free to politely say why or why not. In these dialogs its not so much about winning or loosing but rather prayerful respectful dialog with one another and learning from one another.

So I can start if Mark is ok with that. I will try to keep it simple, well, as simple as I can because whole books and courses have been taught on this subject in universities. So I will stick to the meaty parts. I have no stipulations other then politeness and charity even when we disagree.

It can go as long as the dialog last and we get tired of dialoging. I have will put no length perimeters on each post. And I will allow each counter post to take as long as one wills(Heck Mark and I have been dialoging for 6 months and its been fun). I know life can get in the way of these and each post from each person needs to be read and digested prayerfully and considered and restudied eventually.

Now most of what I will present will be from the bible and from the books that Catholic and protestants both share(which is most of it) We may disagree on what is "hidden" or apocryphal as many Christian like Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have 7 extra books in the OT that we believe are deutrocanonical and inspired fully. But for the most part those are not needed at all in this dialog. As a Catholic I do not limit myself to only the bible nor do I think the evidence should be limited to just that when we have a whole history of the early Church and Jewish understandings from the sacred tradition. Many other Christians including Lutherans and some other protestant like episcopalians and Anglicans would also agree with this so I will mostly use scriptural text(I promise) but I also will demonstrate also the other evidences from the tradition (history of the early christians) which seem to be based off of Jewish understanding in retrospect. So I will also present one or two links(not much) to the Jewish understandings on some of this by Rabbi's so we can see the whole picture as I believe that the Catholic faith and Church in its being and doctrines are the historical and biblical fulfillment of Judaism. But yeah like 98% of what I will present will be scripture from the old and new testament and that will be most of the meet. I include the other small evidence to exist for other onlookers who may want to see a fuller picture of evidence.

If Chris is ok with this I would love to start.

God bless you.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

As I said, only the bible - absolutely none of the other books (accepted by some or not), and only your own logic (Guided by the Holy Spirit) to support the text.

I understand you accept more, but at the current moment I cannot.

So while you see no reason to limit source, I do. Just the bible- the 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament.

Other than that, I am good..Although, redundancy is irrelevant. Once something has been addressed and responded to there is no sense rehashing it - unless there is a different light the same thing needs seen in later on.. circles for no reason wears me out.. I don't enjoy circles and I will walk away if that is where we find this going..

if you agree, then we can begin with your first post in the thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As I said, only the bible - absolutely none of the other books (accepted by some or not), and only your own logic (Guided by the Holy Spirit) to support the text.

I understand you accept more, but at the current moment I cannot.

So while you see no reason to limit source, I do. Just the bible- the 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament.

Other than that, I am good..Although, redundancy is irrelevant. Once something has been addressed and responded to there is no sense rehashing it - unless there is a different light the same thing needs seen in later on.. circles for no reason wears me out.. I don't enjoy circles and I will walk away if that is where we find this going..

if you agree, then we can begin with your first post in the thread.

OK with this Athanasias?

 

[Chris12]

Okay, it was requested that I accede to 3 quotes from the early Church and a link to one article by a rabbi on top of the 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament to be used as source, and I have so acceded to the request.

The above will be the agreed upon source material in the discussion. No more.

The discussion can begin anytime Athanasias is ready to begin, he has the opening.