Lee Grady/Charisma Mag Article worth reading . . .

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Alpine

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I didn't pay for the past two subscriptions I've had to Charisma. There are sites online where magazines are often offered free. I'm actually enjoying my 2nd subscription. The magazine had gone downhill - until the last year it has improved a little bit.
 
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JimB

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you see the difference between your judgement and God's judgement Is your judgement is based on what YOU see with YOUR mortal eye. God's judgement is righteous he sees much more than you or any other man.

BTW the second half of your statement pay attention to the truth. The info has been disclosed to the IRS. I know you would prefer to have them ask YOUR permission first.

But isn’t that also true of you as well when you pass judgment on me, as you have done here, and with others you disagree with? Or is it just the celebrities who get a pass?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
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~RENEE~

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But isn’t that also true of you as well when you pass judgment on me, as you have done here, and with others you disagree with? Or is it just the celebrities who get a pass?

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
The difference Is?



























I'm not talking about people behind their backs. I'm talking to YOU.
 
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JimB

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If I were in the public forum and made public televised public statements I would fully expect my statements to be judged (discerned) by the public.

For the record, concerning TB, I have chosen not to enter the debate about specific statements he has made or his poor judgments where they may exist. I do not know TB, do not follow him, and have very little, if any, interest in him. I would choose rather to talk about how disclosures made by those in positions to know (Grady, the government, etc.) effect the church.

God bless and help TB in all areas of his life. I pray for him and wish the best for him. But, still, to whom much is given (by God or man), much is required. That means accountability.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I never suscribed this magazine but now after researching and reading the latest issues, I am considering subscribing. I am happy there are "sound" articles out there now.

Sometimes the articles are good . . . it is the advertisements that are bad . . . but I guess they need to make money to stay in circulation.
 
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JimfromOhio

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Sometimes the articles are good . . . it is the advertisements that are bad . . . but I guess they need to make money to stay in circulation.

Yeah.. which is why I don't subscribe very much. I like seeing reputable advertisements but those unreputable advertisements bothers me the most which is one of many reasons why I don't subscribe.

If the articles are high in standards and worthwhile, then I will invest and they would not need to get those silly advertisments.

Many Christian magazines have lowered their journalistic standards as well as advertising standards. There are not many good and realiable Christian magazines out there.
 
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Alpine

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Yeah.. which is why I don't subscribe very much. I like seeing reputable advertisements but those unreputable advertisements bothers me the most which is one of many reasons why I don't subscribe.

If the articles are high in standards and worthwhile, then I will invest and they would not need to get those silly advertisments.

Many Christian magazines have lowered their journalistic standards as well as advertising standards. There are not many good and realiable Christian magazines out there.

I think you especially would like the column by Joyce Meyer!
 
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mont974x4

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Renee,
Honestly, I just read tha article again and I don't see any hate at all. I see an encouragement to pray for Todd and his wife. I see an encouragement to be obedient to Scripture an test the spirits and study the Word. I see an encouragement to be careful who, and how, we ordain people. The author was even hopeful of restoring both their marriage and Todd's ministry. And there was a call for honest reflection and repentance where needed.


I do pray for their repentance and a restored marriage. I do pray that Todd is counseled wisely and comes back as a godly man, worthy of his calling, doing mighty things of God free of the bad theology (from whatever source they may be from).

In all honesty, the article was extremely loving, IMO.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Renee,
Honestly, I just read tha article again and I don't see any hate at all. I see an encouragement to pray for Todd and his wife. I see an encouragement to be obedient to Scripture an test the spirits and study the Word. I see an encouragement to be careful who, and how, we ordain people. The author was even hopeful of restoring both their marriage and Todd's ministry. And there was a call for honest reflection and repentance where needed.


I do pray for their repentance and a restored marriage. I do pray that Todd is counseled wisely and comes back as a godly man, worthy of his calling, doing mighty things of God free of the bad theology (from whatever source they may be from).

In all honesty, the article was extremely loving, IMO.

Ditto. I saw nothing that could rationally be construed as "hate."
 
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JimB

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Ditto. I saw nothing that could rationally be construed as "hate."

I think “hate” in the vocabulary of some means talking against the dangerous beliefs of that person’s current celebrity preacher but, apparently, it doesn’t apply when that person is trying to smack down someone in this forum they disagree with and judge their motives and character. Then, I suppose, hate becomes whitewashed and sanctified.

We need to judge one another (and ourselves) with the same balance.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
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dkbwarrior

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J. Lee Grady
Why did so many people flock to Lakeland from around the world
to rally behind an evangelist who had serious credibility issues
from the beginning?

Really? So what are these credibibilty issues oh great Grady?

J. Lee Grady
From the first week of the Lakeland revival, many discerning
Christians raised questions about Bentley’s beliefs and practices.
They felt uneasy when he said he talked to an angel in his hotel
room. They sensed something amiss when he wore a T-shirt with
a skeleton on it. They wondered why a man of God would cover
himself with tattoos. They were horrified when they heard him
describe how he tackled a man and knocked his tooth out during prayer.

Amazing that all these discerning christians have to judge on appearances. Lets take a look:

1) He claimed he talked to an angel

I gotta say, I never understood this one from a charismatic. I have never talked to an angel (that I am aware of) but I suspect that I may someday, and I certainly don't see what is wrong with that.

2) He wore a T-shirt with a skeleton on it
3) He covered himself with tattoos

Hmmm..... Seems completely outward appearance to me. I have alot of tattoos, and I plan on getting more. My wife loves the skull motiffe, many of her shirts and shoes and even pants have skulls on them. I guess we are heretics too...

4) He tackled a man and knocked his tooth out during prayer.

I can see this as a possible concern. However, if God told him to do it, then it is not. How can we possibly judge that? I think that if the person wasn't healed and/or was angry and sued then that would be pretty good evidence that he was acting in the flesh. But if Todd was doing what the Spirit told him to do and the man was healed, I don't get it.

Sounds like what Jesus warned us against:


23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:23-24

J. Lee Grady
But among those who jumped on the Lakeland bandwagon,
discernment was discouraged. They were expected to swallow
and follow. The message was clear: “This is God. Don’t question.”

So, great Grady, we are now stooping to mocking those we disagree with? Why didn't I ever hear anyone say that we need to swallow and follow? I suppose it would be fair to say then that the so-called discerning christians that were judging on outward appearances were fudging and judging?

While there may have been some extremes in the defense of Todd, I personally have seen far more extremes in the judgement of Todd. I do notice that you have failed to mention them in this artical however. You did not mention how many of these discerning christians said that Todd was worshipping angels and teaching others to do so also, and that He thought he was God, and that he was demon possessed.

Is is possible that you didn't mention these things, because you know that the vast majority of thinking Spirit filled christians understand that thse accusations are pure rubbish, and your intent here is to mock those that supported Todd, and support those that are judging him regardless of the facts?

J. Lee Grady
Many of us would rather watch a noisy demonstration of miracles,
signs and wonders than have a quiet Bible study. Yet we are faced
today with the sad reality that our untempered zeal is a sign of
immaturity. Our adolescent craving for the wild and crazy makes
us do stupid things. It’s way past time for us to grow up.

On this we are in agreement. It is the one issue that I have with the so-called revivals like Lakeland, Brownsville, etc. As a WOF believer, I don't see the neccessity of chasing the annointing around the nation or the World. The annointing abides within me. When I need it I draw on Christ in me, the hope of glory.

J. Lee Grady
Why didn’t anyone in Lakeland denounce the favorable comments
Bentley made about William Branham?

This one baffles me. Branham embraced horrible deception near
the end of his ministry... and his strange doctrines are still
embraced by a cultlike following today...

Why didn’t anyone correct this error from the pulpit?

What error? You have made favorable comments about David, the apple of Gods eye. Haven't you? Did you find it neccessary to couple your statements with a denouncment of Davids act of murder and adultery? Or did you just assume that people would understand that when you were praising David you were praising the good that he did, and the heart he had from God?

Todd is not a Branhamite. It is quite obvious. He himself said that Branham fell into error towards the end of his ministry. Are you claiming that Branham was NEVER anointed then, and are you willing to judge David the same, and deduce that he was never anointed also?


J. Lee Grady
Godly leaders are supposed to protect the sheep from heresy, not spoon feed deception to them. Only God knows how far this poison traveled
from Lakeland to take root elsewhere. May God forgive us for
allowing His Word to be so flippantly contaminated.

So now it is poison? What is poison oh great Grady? The fact that he said he talked to an angel? Or the fact that he wore a skeleton T-shirt? Or the fact that he has tattoos? Or the fact that he said God gave him the annointing of William Branham?

J. Lee Grady
A prominent Pentecostal evangelist called me this week after
Bentley’s news hit the fan. He said to me: “I’m now convinced that
a large segment of the charismatic church will follow the anti-Christ
when he shows up because they have no discernment.” Ouch.
Hopefully we’ll learn our lesson this time and apply the necessary
caution when an imposter shows up.

Why did God TV tell people that “any criticism of Todd Bentley is demonic”?

This ridiculous statement was actually made on one of God TV’s
pre-shows. In fact, the network’s hosts also warned listeners that
if they listened to criticism of Bentley, they could lose their healings.

I don't think any criticism of Todd Bentley is demonic. And if God TV said this, and meant it the way that the great Grady is contextually using it, then I would have to respectfully disagree with them.

However, I do agree that a large portion of the chrismatic church will be decieved by the anti-christ, if they are here when he is. But it will be the so-called discerning christains that judge by appearance referred to by the great Grady that will be following.

Those of us that understand faith understand that healing comes by faith, and, conversely, can be lost by fear. When the anti-chirst comes I am sure his miracles will not require faith at all, they are meant to deceive after all, they will be sure and easily proven, they wont require one to believe before they see, but will sway the minds and hearts through deceiving the senses.

All those who have decided that believing something you cant see is deception, will flock to the so-called real miracles of the anti-christ that will allow one to see before they believe.

J. Lee Grady
This is cultic manipulation at its worst. The Bible tells us that the
Bereans were noble believers because they studied the Scriptures
daily “to see whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11, NASB).
Yet in the case of Lakeland, honest intellectual inquiry was viewed
as a sign of weakness. People were expected to jump first and
then open their eyes.

Hmmm..... Cultic manipulation at its worst? Isn't that seriously overblown hyperbole oh great Grady? I mean, what about Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, and the fiasco in Waco Texas, just to name a few.

J. Lee Grady
Because of the Lakeland scandal, there may be large numbers of
people who feel they’ve been burned by Bentley. Some may give
up on church and join the growing ranks of bitter, disenfranchised
Christians. Others may suffer total spiritual shipwreck.

What scandal? That he separated with his wife and is therefore stepping down from his position to follow his wife back to Canada to atempt reconciliation? There is no scandal yet. Just a hurting family trying to fix things. That is not a scandal in my book, though you see quite invested in hoping that is is.

This entire letter is full of judging by appearances, misrepresentation, and the attemp to create scandal where none yet exist. And the scripture says this:

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
-James 4:11


9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
-1 John 2:9-11

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
-1 John 3:15


20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
-1 John 4:20-21

Peace...
 
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JimB

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Really? So what are these credibibilty issues oh great Grady?



Amazing that all these discerning christians have to judge on appearances. Lets take a look:

1) He claimed he talked to an angel

I gotta say, I never understood this one from a charismatic. I have never talked to an angel (that I am aware of) but I suspect that I may someday, and I certainly don't see what is wrong with that.

2) He wore a T-shirt with a skeleton on it
3) He covered himself with tattoos

Hmmm..... Seems completely outward appearance to me. I have alot of tattoos, and I plan on getting more. My wife loves the skull motiffe, many of her shirts and shoes and even pants have skulls on them. I guess we are heretics too...

4) He tackled a man and knocked his tooth out during prayer.

I can see this as a possible concern. However, if God told him to do it, then it is not. How can we possibly judge that? I think that if the person wasn't healed and/or was angry and sued then that would be pretty good evidence that he was acting in the flesh. But if Todd was doing what the Spirit told him to do and the man was healed, I don't get it.

Sounds like what Jesus warned us against:


23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:23-24



So, great Grady, we are now stooping to mocking those we disagree with? Why didn't I ever hear anyone say that we need to swallow and follow? I suppose it would be fair to say then that the so-called discerning christians that were judging on outward appearances were fudging and judging?

While there may have been some extremes in the defense of Todd, I personally have seen far more extremes in the judgement of Todd. I do notice that you have failed to mention them in this artical however. You did not mention how many of these discerning christians said that Todd was worshipping angels and teaching others to do so also, and that He thought he was God, and that he was demon possessed.

Is is possible that you didn't mention these things, because you know that the vast majority of thinking Spirit filled christians understand that thse accusations are pure rubbish, and your intent here is to mock those that supported Todd, and support those that are judging him regardless of the facts?



On this we are in agreement. It is the one issue that I have with the so-called revivals like Lakeland, Brownsville, etc. As a WOF believer, I don't see the neccessity of chasing the annointing around the nation or the World. The annointing abides within me. When I need it I draw on Christ in me, the hope of glory.



What error? You have made favorable comments about David, the apple of Gods eye. Haven't you? Did you find it neccessary to couple your statements with a denouncment of Davids act of murder and adultery? Or did you just assume that people would understand that when you were praising David you were praising the good that he did, and the heart he had from God?

Todd is not a Branhamite. It is quite obvious. He himself said that Branham fell into error towards the end of his ministry. Are you claiming that Branham was NEVER anointed then, and are you willing to judge David the same, and deduce that he was never anointed also?




So now it is poison? What is poison oh great Grady? The fact that he said he talked to an angel? Or the fact that he wore a skeleton T-shirt? Or the fact that he has tattoos? Or the fact that he said God gave him the annointing of William Branham?



I don't think any criticism of Todd Bentley is demonic. And if God TV said this, and meant it the way that the great Grady is contextually using it, then I would have to respectfully disagree with them.

However, I do agree that a large portion of the chrismatic church will be decieved by the anti-christ, if they are here when he is. But it will be the so-called discerning christains that judge by appearance referred to by the great Grady that will be following.

Those of us that understand faith understand that healing comes by faith, and, conversely, can be lost by fear. When the anti-chirst comes I am sure his miracles will not require faith at all, they are meant to deceive after all, they will be sure and easily proven, they wont require one to believe before they see, but will sway the minds and hearts through deceiving the senses.

All those who have decided that believing something you cant see is deception, will flock to the so-called real miracles of the anti-christ that will allow one to see before they believe.



Hmmm..... Cultic manipulation at its worst? Isn't that seriously overblown hyperbole oh great Grady? I mean, what about Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, and the fiasco in Waco Texas, just to name a few.



What scandal? That he separated with his wife and is therefore stepping down from his position to follow his wife back to Canada to atempt reconciliation? There is no scandal yet. Just a hurting family trying to fix things. That is not a scandal in my book, though you see quite invested in hoping that is is.

This entire letter is full of judging by appearances, misrepresentation, and the attemp to create scandal where none yet exist. And the scripture says this:

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
-James 4:11


9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
-1 John 2:9-11

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
-1 John 3:15


20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
-1 John 4:20-21

Peace...

All this simply shows me that we work from different perspectives. You are willing to take TB’s word for things, I am not without two or three witnesses. I do not know TB. If he is a liar, that is one thing, but he could just be misinterpreting events or he could be delusional. I don’t know. That it is so important that we have intimate knowledge of those who labor among us. How is it that you know the “accusations are pure rubbish”? We have to “prove all things” before we can do that and you haven’t proven TB credibility any more than someone else has not.

I am and will continue to reserve judgment about anything I do not know. I do have access, however, to public recorded statements he has made and I can form righteous judgment about the content of what he says. We are required to that.

As for Grady, I am sure he has access to more information about TB than anyone in this forum and, because of his job as the editor of an established magazine, he can be held liable for anything that he has said that cannot be documented. TB can file suit for damages if what he is said cannot be verified.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
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dkbwarrior

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How is it that you know the “accusations are pure rubbish”? We have to “prove all things” before we can do that and you haven’t proven TB credibility any more than someone else has not.

I am not concerned with proving TB's credibility. I, like you, am reserving judgement pending concrete information.

The difference between you and me (IMHO) regarding this is that IN THE ABSENCE OF CREDIBLE INFORMATION, we are required to act in love, one charicteristic of which is "love believes all things". Believing infers that you don't know something for a fact. If you knew it for a fact then you woudn't need to believe, you would know.

Therefore, biblically speaking, IN THE ABSENCE OF CREDIBLE INFORMATION, we should always give each other the benefit of the doubt, and believe the best.

I can confidently say that the accusations which I listed as rubbish, ie., TB worshipping angels and teaching others to do so, and thinking he is God, and being demon possessed, have no credible information to back them. Every accusation like this that I saw mentioned on this site I followed the links back that were given by the accuser, and did not see any evidence of what they were accusing him of in these three areas.

It would be the same if someone was accusing you of something Jim, and posted a video purporting to prove it, and the video didn't prove anything. I would continue to believe the best about you, until such time as the accuser could prove their claims.

Now, that doesn't mean that the accusations are false, but it does mean that the accusations have no evidence to support them, and thus will be considered false by me until evidence is provided. I would expect the same consideration from you in return. Unfortunately, many are unable to give TB that consideration.

Peace...
 
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Tenebrae

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I respect what J. Lee Grady has to say ( I subscribe to the magazine) and I noticed that the magazine was dubious about the whole Lakeland thing. Kind of interesting they are not as discerning about the ad's they allow in the magazine though. They've allowed all kinds of strange ad's about any kind of apostle and prophet you can think of.

well said

Its one thing to speak out against something like this, kind of seems off, especially if the magazine is allowing advertising from the same sort of organisations they are speaking out against

I'm not sure of the reference and perhaps someone else can tell me, was that one of the key elements of a revival was "are people being being bought to repentence". I recall reading Keith Greens autobiography by his wife. He described one time when he was playing at a christian college, and how the Spirit of God began to move, people were spontaneously making public professions of repentence as well as on their knees confessing before the Almightly.


This is my own opinion, I think in alot of respects this 'revival' could be likened to Christmas Tinsel. Its bright and shiny and pretty to look at. However before long the sparkly stuff starts falling off, and before long all one is left with is an empty piece of string.


My heart hurts for Todd and his family the same way it hurts for any couple that realises they can not longer make it as husband and wife. I pray that if they cant reconcile, then at least they can keep things friendly and amicable for their kids. As someone that was raised in a single parent home with a severaly absent dead beat dad, I know how much it sucks
 
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JimB

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*****

The difference between you and me (IMHO) regarding this is that IN THE ABSENCE OF CREDIBLE INFORMATION, we are required to act in love, one charicteristic of which is "love believes all things". Believing infers that you don't know something for a fact. If you knew it for a fact then you woudn't need to believe, you would know.

*****

Then you are saying that I, unlike you, are not acting in love. That’s pretty arrogant, DK.

Remember, Love is also not puffed up.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
 
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JimfromOhio

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I am not concerned with proving TB's credibility. I, like you, am reserving judgement pending concrete information.

The difference between you and me (IMHO) regarding this is that IN THE ABSENCE OF CREDIBLE INFORMATION, we are required to act in love, one charicteristic of which is "love believes all things". Believing infers that you don't know something for a fact. If you knew it for a fact then you woudn't need to believe, you would know.

Therefore, biblically speaking, IN THE ABSENCE OF CREDIBLE INFORMATION, we should always give each other the benefit of the doubt, and believe the best.

I can confidently say that the accusations which I listed as rubbish, ie., TB worshipping angels and teaching others to do so, and thinking he is God, and being demon possessed, have no credible information to back them. Every accusation like this that I saw mentioned on this site I followed the links back that were given by the accuser, and did not see any evidence of what they were accusing him of in these three areas.

It would be the same if someone was accusing you of something Jim, and posted a video purporting to prove it, and the video didn't prove anything. I would continue to believe the best about you, until such time as the accuser could prove their claims.

Now, that doesn't mean that the accusations are false, but it does mean that the accusations have no evidence to support them, and thus will be considered false by me until evidence is provided. I would expect the same consideration from you in return. Unfortunately, many are unable to give TB that consideration.

Peace...

Credibility of doctrinal teachings are important. Its just that there are those who disagree.
 
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