Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

That's why.

Let's see what tense this verse is, okay?

Luke 18:30
who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

We have present tense (receive many times more IN THIS PRESENT TIME), and future tense (receive eternal life IN THE AGE TO COME).

I know it kills you to admit you are wrong, but you ARE WRONG!

I've always admitted when shown to be wrong, but you have yet to do that.

In fact, your atempts just keep failing.

Once again, I will explain it to you. When "eternal life" is being referred to as in the future it ALWAYS means eternity itself, which IS future.

To claim that eternal life as a gift is given after physial death is SOUNDLY REFUTED by Jesus Himself in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47.

He used the PRESENT TENSE for possession of eternal life.

Busted. Again.

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

What tense is this?

Matthew 10:4
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Did Judas betray Jesus in Matthew 10 yet?

Now, when does Jesus give His sheep eternal life?

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There is an order, but you deny it. See 'and' at the beginning of verse 28? It's called a connector; it connects verse 27 with verse 28.

Here's the order for you 1. sheep hear His voice, 2. He knows them, 3. they follow Him, AND 4. He gives them eternal life.

I've always admitted when shown to be wrong, but you have yet to do that.

Why don't you admit there is an order in receiving eternal life?

In fact, your atempts just keep failing.

Once again, I will explain it to you. When "eternal life" is being referred to as in the future it ALWAYS means eternity itself, which IS future.

There is NO DIFFERENCE in eternity and eternal life. NONE AT ALL! There cannot be eternity without life and no life without eternity. Whether you say Jesus gives us eternal life or He gives us eternity, it makes no difference, NONE AT ALL!

Everywhere you read of eternal life, you can safely substitute eternity. Try it, you'll like it.

To claim that eternal life as a gift is given after physial death is SOUNDLY REFUTED by Jesus Himself in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47.

He used the PRESENT TENSE for possession of eternal life.

Busted. Again.

It's given as one hears His voice and follows Him. And Jesus soundly refutes your earthly doctrine. You can't stand to follow Jesus in order to receive eternal life. Because following Him includes keeping His commandments. And guess what?

Matthew 19:17
...if thou wilt enter into life (or eternity), keep the commandments.

If you aren't willing to keep His commandments, then you aren't willing to enter eternal life. This is His voice you must hear; but you're not willing to hear His voice in this passage. You had rather climb up some other way.

John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

 

[EmSw]

and we see that following Him includes keeping His commandments, as we see here -

1 Kings 9
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Jesus has set before us His commandments. If you do not keep His commandments, then you are serving other gods and worshiping them. Then He will cut you off and cast you out of His sight. Each one has the freedom and rationality to believe this. The choice is up to man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

What tense is this?

It's a statement of what Jesus does for His sheep. Of course it isn't future. We would have seen "will" in front of "give" if that were true.

You really don't have anything more to add to this discussion, given your disdain for what Jesus Christ did on the cross to reconcile mankind to God and pay the sin debt.

2 Cor 5:14,15, 19.

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

It's a statement of what Jesus does for His sheep. Of course it isn't future. We would have seen "will" in front of "give" if that were true.

You really don't have anything more to add to this discussion, given your disdain for what Jesus Christ did on the cross to reconcile mankind to God and pay the sin debt.

2 Cor 5:14,15, 19.

I see you have no comments for verses 27 and 28. What you deny is the conditions Jesus gave for eternal life. But that doesn't surprise anyone; you've avoided the conditions like they were leprosy.

Instead of hearing His voice and following Him, you have chosen to climb up another way. That's okay, for everyone who listens and obeys His voice, there are those who absolutely will not listen to His voice and follow Him for eternal life.

What did Jesus do on the cross? I'll tell you, He died and put off the natural He received from His mother. Jesus finished the work the Father gave Him to do before the cross, but you can't accept that and have Him doing work on the cross. On a cross, no one does any work.

Since you think Jesus worked on the cross, what work do you accomplish bearing YOUR cross? That is the cross Jesus mentioned, not His. You had rather Jesus suffering on a cross, instead of taking up YOUR own cross. It seems you have a haughty contempt and disdain for YOUR cross.

I'm still waiting for OT passages which state how they received life. I'm sure others see that you can't or won't provide them. What are you hiding?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see you have no comments for verses 27 and 28.

You're just not seeing too well, then.

What you deny is the conditions Jesus gave for eternal life.

He didn't give them in either verse. But I've repeatedly given the single condition before, in John 3:15, 16, 5:24 and 6:47. Whoever believes HAS eternal life. That's it.

But that doesn't surprise anyone; you've avoided the conditions like they were leprosy.

This is a total LIE.

What did Jesus do on the cross? I'll tell you, He died and put off the natural He received from His mother. Jesus finished the work the Father gave Him to do before the cross, but you can't accept that and have Him doing work on the cross. On a cross, no one does any work.

His final words on the cross was 'tetelastai', which means "paid in full". That's when He finished His Father's work. But I won't bore you with Scripture. I already know the reaction.

 

[sdowney717]

I think the parable of the sower is good.
In the second example, people made a shallow commitment,when trials and persecutions came they walked away. So they were initially in a saved state but lost it
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things during their walk. Jesus said they did not mature, he didn't say they walked away or lost their salvation. You mature in the faith by practicing doing right from wrong.

So you could say, one group had their names blotted out, the other group never did, despite continually being sidetracked from the path they should have been on

I view that parable of the sower differently.
The only ones who are ever saved are those who bear good fruit to God. If you do not bear good fruit, then several verses tell us your going into hellfire.

There was only one in that parable who bore fruit and many fold, which is what Jesus tells us His people will do. the others who had positive emotional experience, were not born of God so of course they fell away. They were not granted to know Christ by God, so they ceased off from following Christ.
And in another place, Christ tells these religious workers who did all those great works in His name, that He NEVER knew them and that they were to depart from Him as those who practice lawlessness.

The key to understanding is Christ saying to them, I never knew you, yet they had appeared outwardly to be people of faith working even miracles.

See it is the Spirit which gives LIFE and that life is eternal as He is, but those in the flesh cannot please God which are them that Christ tells He never knew them.

Couple things to key in on are,

Spirit gives life and Jesus in many places says that life is eternal.
God must grant you to come to Christ or your going to remain a natural unspiritual dead in your sins soul, we are saved by grace alone.
You may have the outward appearance of righteousness, but Christ is not fooled, He will say He never knew you and that means you were never born of God.
All believers, God had granted to them to come to Christ beforehand or they would not have done so.
If your not a believer, then you are not going to be walking with Christ, you will depart the faith, visibly or maybe not so visibly. The hypocrites are great pretenders to the faith.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more

 

[Marco70]

.

See it is the Spirit which gives LIFE and that life is eternal as He is, but those in the flesh cannot please God which are them that Christ tells He never knew them.

A Baptist minister of fifty years once said:
If we followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all.

 

[WordSword]

Hi LOT, and Judas' state is always a significant issue because it's related to the permanency of faith and salvation. Please know that my replies is purely for instructional purposes and never for personal refutation, which I believe is the same for you.

The apostleship is all Judas had and lost with Christ, but not salvific unity as ever being reborn:

"But the son of perdition"; Judas, a child of Satan, whose name is Apollyon the destroyer, who was now about to betray his Lord and master; and was one that was appointed to eternal ruin and destruction, of which he was justly deserving; and which is no instance of the apostasy of saints, since though he was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him." John Gill
John 17 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

“Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” Judas is there represented as having been chosen by the Saviour to the apostleship, and this is equivalent to saying that he was given to him for this work; yet at the same time he knew his character, and understood that he had never been renewed.

"None of them" - None of those chosen to the apostolic office.

"But the son of perdition" - The term son was given by the Hebrews to those who possessed the character described by the word or name following. Thus, sons of Belial - those who possessed his character; children of wisdom those who were wise, Matthew 11:19. Thus Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition." Albert Barnes
John 17 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Jesus always knew who would betray Him and I believe that betrayal is a core evidence of unbelief! "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him." Jhn 6:64

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Jhn 6:70.

We can say that Judas lost what he was chosen for--apostleship, but there is nothing written evidencing any credibility nor indication of him being a believer.

May God always give us to instruction of His Word!

 

[EmSw]

There was only one in that parable who bore fruit and many fold, which is what Jesus tells us His people will do. the others who had positive emotional experience, were not born of God so of course they fell away. They were not granted to know Christ by God, so they ceased off from following Christ.
And in another place, Christ tells these religious workers who did all those great works in His name, that He NEVER knew them and that they were to depart from Him as those who practice lawlessness.

If you are going to quote scripture, be sure not to add anything as you did above. It doesn't say 'AS' those who practice lawlessness.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You make it sound like they are told to depart AS THOSE who practice lawlessness. No sir, Jesus said depart from me ye workers of iniquity.

 

[miknik5]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Because of what Jesus actually SAID. He said, "I GIVE THEM eternal life". What tense did Jesus use there? Hint: it wasn't the future tense.

That's why.

I've always admitted when shown to be wrong, but you have yet to do that.

In fact, your atempts just keep failing.

Once again, I will explain it to you. When "eternal life" is being referred to as in the future it ALWAYS means eternity itself, which IS future.

To claim that eternal life as a gift is given after physial death is SOUNDLY REFUTED by Jesus Himself in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47.

He used the PRESENT TENSE for possession of eternal life.

Busted. Again.

John 5 is a picture of two sets of people:

Those who have already passed from death to life, who have heard the voice of the SON OF GOD now and have a part in the first resurrection

Then we have the second group in that all at a future point in time will hear the voice of the SON of GOD and will then be raised to be judged. These did not have a part in the first resurrection but will stand before the SON of MAN and will be judged according to their works.

These are those mentioned after the 1000year reign is complete

 

[Danthemailman]

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

 

[miknik5]

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

How do you understand John 5 and specifically 5:21 through 5:24

 

[Danthemailman]

How do you understand John 5 and specifically 5:21 through 5:24

Are you also a member of Christian Chat? In verse 21, we have a claim to deity, which shows that Jesus does what only God can do, in which raising the dead and giving life are the sole prerogatives of God (Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:6; 2 Kings 5:7). Verse 22 is another claim to deity, since judgment is also the sole prerogative of God (Genesis 18:25; Psalm 50:6; James 4:12). Verse 23 establishes the right of Jesus to be worshiped as God and is yet another claim to deity. In verse 24, we read - "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." In John 12:44, we read - Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me." In other words, believes not only, not ultimately, in Me, but in Him who sent Me.

 

[miknik5]

Are you also a member of Christian Chat? In verse 21, we have a claim to deity, which shows that Jesus does what only God can do, in which raising the dead and giving life are the sole prerogatives of God (Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:6; 2 Kings 5:7). Verse 22 is another claim to deity, since judgment is also the sole prerogative of God (Genesis 18:25; Psalm 50:6; James 4:12). Verse 23 establishes the right of Jesus to be worshiped as God and is yet another claim to deity. In verse 24, we read - "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." In John 12:44, we read - Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me." In other words, believes not only, not ultimately, in Me, but in Him who sent Me.

Yes

But not all believe

 

[miknik5]

John 5:24 and John 5:25

Clearly show that a time will come when ALL will hear the voice of THE SON of GOD

Not all in their physical life have heard and believed.

This is why some have already (those who live and believe in ME) heard HIS VOICE have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation

This is clearly reminded to Martha in the scriptures.

John 11:25

 

[sdowney717]

John 5:24 and John 5:25

Clearly show that a time will come when ALL will hear the voice of THE SON of GOD

Not all in their physical life have heard and believed.

This is why some have already (those who live and believe in ME) heard HIS VOICE have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation

This is clearly reminded to Martha in the scriptures.

John 11:25

Evil people, the unsaved are evil in rebellion against God's command to repent and believe in Christ, will hear the voice of Christ and be raised to a condemnation of hell, a destiny of a second death in the lake of fire.
There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust. The evil spirits of men are in hell after death, but this here verse refers to a resurrection, but not one of life for them that are evil. There is no second chance after physical death for the wicked shall be turned into hell.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul also taught the resurrection of all dead, both evil and good as does Daniel.
Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:21 unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’ ”

 

[sdowney717]

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.

These verses refer to the here and now time for a mans life, while they are physically alive yet spiritually dead. Only those that hear Christ will live. The rest remain spiritually dead. The reason they hear, God has enabled them to hear and not enabled others to hear Christ. Obviously not all hear Him since not all have eternal life, some have no faith.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Judas was not saved. He hung himself before Jesus made the sacrifice. No one was saved until Christ died for mankind.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Please explain how Judas was saved.
I mean he died before Jesus. So did he come about salvation in some other manner?