Discussion Is your church/denomination fighting against the encroaching cultural/sexual agenda?

[jiminpa]

I don't know about your church but mine is rife with sinners. There is the glutton in the pew behind me. There is the homeless drug addict in the pew beside me. Across the aisle is the chap who has been divorced twice and married yet again. Sally is a gossip who bears false witness about other ladies in her fellowship circle. Bill has an intemperate tongue and curses like a sailor. I'm pretty sure Steve and June aren't really married. Betty had a child out of wedlock. And, then there is me.

I'm tolerant enough to believe all these persons ought to be sitting in church. I have always been partial to Matthew 13:26-30 saying the Master will sort things out at the harvest. I understand others believe differently.

In mine, we don't turn people out, but we welcome the Holy Spirit enough that I would hope that those in sinful lifestyles would not be comfortable. I know I can be uncomfortable at times there, and I am in Christ and no longer a sinner.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I don't know about your church but mine is rife with sinners. There is the glutton in the pew behind me. There is the homeless drug addict in the pew beside me. Across the aisle is the chap who has been divorced twice and married yet again. Sally is a gossip who bears false witness about other ladies in her fellowship circle. Bill has an intemperate tongue and curses like a sailor. I'm pretty sure Steve and June aren't really married. Betty had a child out of wedlock. And, then there is me.

I'm tolerant enough to believe all these persons ought to be sitting in church. I have always been partial to Matthew 13:26-30 saying the Master will sort things out at the harvest. I understand others believe differently.

Well there is a difference. You are not saying "drug addiction, adultery, gluttony, and gossip are ok with us, com'on in and bring that stuff with you. In fact we'll make you the youth leader!" And, yes, the master will sort out these things in the end... I would like to have all my things pre-sorted before I get there. I'm working at it! We are all sinners, no matter how holy we insist we are. It is a good thing that He will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, otherwise I, for one, would not have a good day when He does the sorting. We just have to present a clear and consistent statement about these things. Set the standard, and then work at them. But don't normalize them and make them acceptable.
Peace.
Thank God for Episcopalians!

 

[ARBITER01]

Recent article from the site I posted in the thread,....

Megachurch Pastor Says Not Supporting Same-Sex Marriage is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

Dr. Field Harrison, a megachurch pastor of Amen Church in Dallas, TX, is making headlines over recent comments about homosexual relationships and marriage. His insistence that those who hold to a biblical sexual ethic are committing the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...

disntr.com

This is why I pay attention to that site, Most of the other Christian sites are not really paying attention till after the fact.

 

[jiminpa]

Recent article from the site I posted in the thread,....

Megachurch Pastor Says Not Supporting Same-Sex Marriage is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

Dr. Field Harrison, a megachurch pastor of Amen Church in Dallas, TX, is making headlines over recent comments about homosexual relationships and marriage. His insistence that those who hold to a biblical sexual ethic are committing the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...

disntr.com

This is why I pay attention to that site, Most of the other Christian sites are not really paying attention till after the fact.

When a stopped clock, (right twice a day) makes a living by accusing Christians, I would rather be uninformed than substantially misinformed with false accusations against God's people. The Bible puts gossip and false witness on the same level as homosexuality in some lists. That's my observation, and I could very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.

 

[ARBITER01]

When a stopped clock, (right twice a day) makes a living by accusing Christians, I would rather be uninformed than substantially misinformed with false accusations against God's people. The Bible puts gossip and false witness on the same level as homosexuality in some lists. That's my observation, and I could very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.

I would stop being offended so easily and look at the evidence. They are not reporting on this just to badmouth people, this stuff is happening.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Very sure He did not fight the sinner only the sin.
Blessings

Yes but He did say to the woman “go and sin no more”. I absolutely agree with what you’re saying I just wanted to point out that while we should accept sinners into our church we are also obligated to teach that sin is sin. We shouldn’t overlook the lgbt issue any differently than we would any other sin. Amen?

 

[jiminpa]

I would stop being offended so easily and look at the evidence. They are not reporting on this just to badmouth people, this stuff is happening.

I disagree. Most of their articles are not true, or half-truths. They do have the tone of delighting in false accusations, in hopes of elevating their own bad doctrine by throwing stones at everyone else. But not all of those people they are accusing are wrong, and that site will do whatever it takes to make their accusations, (true on not), seem credible, including lie. Just another reformed theology heresy hunting gossip page.

The Bible is not kind to those sort of people.

If I am right.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It all depends on how we view the church. Is it a showcase of perfect Christians, or is it a hospital for spiritually sick sinners?

When I first joined the AOG in 1966, they had a Sunday morning fellowship service and a Sunday night evangelistic meeting. I notice that in later years. the Sunday night meeting has disappeared (in many parts of New Zealand). So it seems now to be all centred on the Sunday morning service which may or may not include an evangelistic component.

I also noticed that in order to get unconverted folk to walk forward to receive Christ the message was, "It is all of God's grace, and you will be forgiven and cleansed just by believing in Jesus and what He did on the Cross for you." But when that same new believer joined the church things changed and "if you want to continue fellowshiping with us, you need to follow our rules." It is no wonder that many new converts fell away because of the demands of others in the church, and so they stopped going to church because "I don't want these people telling me how to live my life."

This is because many churches try to change people into what it thinks they should be, instead of leaving it to the Holy Spirit to work in the new converts to change them into the person's God wants them to be. Instead of being intercessors for these new converts, they end up being interferers in their personal lives, as they impose: "Our way or the highway!"

Yes, Paul is quite clear about who is qualified to be a leader in the church. He also says that novices in the faith shouldn't be given leadership responsibility either. This means that making someone who has been in the faith just over five minutes the youth leader, is an error which in many cases has had disastrous consequences.

So the church should be a welcoming place for all sorts of people, LGBT people included. I wouldn't have any problem having a trans person sitting beside me in church, nor would I have any difficulty being in a service where people identifying themselves as lesbian or gay. But I would not sit under the ministry of a homosexual or trans minister. This is because Paul says that a church leader has to be "beyond reproach" and 'respectable" in their conduct. I believe that an LGBT person who is genuinely converted to Christ, will, over time be changed into the person whom God wants to be and qualified for leadership in the church. It takes faith to believe that in terms of LGBT Christians that "all things are possible with God" and that as they progress in the faith and grow in grace, the LGBT component will fall away. But it needs to happen in an environment of love, tolerance and acceptance of where a person is at during this transition period in their Christian lives.

I don't agree with LGBT people in church being constantly harassed and Bible bashed concerning what it says about homosexuality. People are not changed through Bible bashing. In fact, when an LGBT person receives Christ, they become new creatures; old things have passed away and all things have become new." This means that God no longer sees them as LGBT, but as born again believers in Christ. There is no condemnation for them because they are in Christ. But it takes time for the external conduct and the forsaking of the flesh to take effect as the Holy Spirit continues to work within them to bring them in line with where they actually stand with Christ.

The trouble is that many churches do not have the faith, love and patience to allow the Holy Spirit to work within LGBT converts to achieve the appropriate level of holiness in His time. They want it to happen in their time, and they continue to reject and Bible bash these converts until they either conform or leave. They usually leave, and they are ruined for any further attempts to encourage them to carry on for Christ.

Now, having said that, I have no respect for an LGBT "pastor" preaching theology. He wants us to accept that being gay is acceptable, and that because Jesus never said anything concerning LGBT, that this "pastor" can presume that he is qualified to run a church and teaching theology to the members. If I had my way, that "pastor" would be encouraged to leave the church at the end of my boot, and not be welcomed back until he repented of his homosexuality and submitted to the Holy Spirit so he can be changed into the person whom God wants him to be.

Being a member of a Union (Methodist/Presbyterian) church, I could see in the foreseeable future that we could have a homosexual minister. Our Methodist district superintendent is Lesbian. If she came to take a service in our church, I would stay away. But if we did have a homosexual minister, I would still continue to be the treasurer and property convenor, but I would stay away from services when he conducted and preached in them. It's bad enough having to sit through the "nothing burgers" that some liberal visiting preachers serve up to us. I appreciate the Lord making a way for me to conduct services around once a month where I can give the Word of God to the people and have their respect for my faithfulness to the Lord.

However, these are my comments for what they are worth.

 

[jiminpa]

It all depends on how we view the church. Is it a showcase of perfect Christians, or is it a hospital for spiritually sick sinners?

Neither, the bible indicates it is a time for believers to assemble together for mutual edification and honoring God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not sure how to articulate what I want to say here in this space, I don't think I've seen this said yet so if it has then I apologize.

The biggest issue with what's going on in a lot of churches and denominations now is the caving to social pressure in order to fill the pews with bodies. An avoidance of a real gospel message, for one of worldliness and acceptance. That's the heart of this discussion I feel.

The gospel is uncomfortable, it can and often does cause division. Jesus even said that he came to bring a sword and division, which I believe he was referring to the message, obviously not to be taken literally. People don't want to hear that they aren't good enough. They don't want to hear about how awful they really are. You hear it all the time "I'm not that bad of a person, at least not as bad as this other person is." Churches are very much going the way of, do whatever we need to, to get bodies into our building and keep them there. Celebrity preachers, rock concerts for worship, etc, instead of just trusting God to do the job only He can do.

 

[lismore]

I'm not sure how to articulate what I want to say here in this space, I don't think I've seen this said yet so if it has then I apologize.

Interesting post. I agree. One thing I would add, I don't know if you would agree or not. I have noticed that by and large younger Christians are more liberal than older Christians. I heard the speaker Kem Ham some years ago in Perth talking on a coming generational shift due to the church moving away from the bible as the source of authority. Talking to the precise issue at hand I have noted that more younger Christians are ok with LGBQTI in the church than older. I think it's the time more than ever to stand firm for the truth. God Bless You

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Interesting post. I agree. One thing I would add, I don't know if you would agree or not. I have noticed that by and large younger Christians are more liberal than older Christians. I heard the speaker Kem Ham some years ago in Perth talking on a coming generational shift due to the church moving away from the bible as the source of authority. Talking to the precise issue at hand I have noted that more younger Christians are ok with LGBQTI in the church than older. I think it's the time more than ever to stand firm for the truth. God Bless You

I would agree with this assessment as well

 

[lismore]

Sadly IMHO it seems there are two big opponents facing those standing for truth in the church from within the church itself.

Younger Christians seem to be much more liberal than older Christians, a demographic time-bomb.

Christian leaders seem to be much more liberal and it's rare to find one making a stand for biblical truth or indeed anyone willing to call out a leader who seems to have committed apostacy. Several 'leaders' I know of are actively promoting LGBQTI. A few years back someone gave me a DVD of 'Rob Bell' from 'Mars Hill Church'. He came to Scotland not long ago to advocate for same sex marriage. 'Tony Campolo' spoke in the city I live in, he later began to advocate for SSM in the church. And Joel Olsteen with the largest congregation in the USA (the pastor of the AOG church I used to attend was a big fan). Shockingly Olsteen has given an interview in which he supported LGBQTI and has also been seen applauding at gay pride events. 'Leaders' who promote this trash are still seen as valid members of the church at large. A Bishop of the Episcopal Church opened the local gay pride parade here with an address saying 'gay pride is an expression of God's love'. It's no longer a case of obfuscation, Christian Leaders are openly promoting LGBQTI and no-one seems to bat an eye lid.

In the last days perilous times will come (1 Timothy 1:3). Get ready to stand alone.

God Bless

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sadly IMHO it seems there are two big opponents facing those standing for truth in the church from within the church itself.

Younger Christians seem to be much more liberal than older Christians, a demographic time-bomb.

Christian leaders seem to be much more liberal and it's rare to find one making a stand for biblical truth or indeed anyone willing to call out a leader who seems to have committed apostacy. Several 'leaders' I know of are actively promoting LGBQTI. A few years back someone gave me a DVD of 'Rob Bell' from 'Mars Hill Church'. He came to Scotland not long ago to advocate for same sex marriage. 'Tony Campolo' spoke in the city I live in, he later began to advocate for SSM in the church. And Joel Olsteen with the largest congregation in the USA (the pastor of the AOG church I used to attend was a big fan). Shockingly Olsteen has given an interview in which he supported LGBQTI and has also been seen applauding at gay pride events. 'Leaders' who promote this trash are still seen as valid members of the church at large. A Bishop of the Episcopal Church opened the local gay pride parade here with an address saying 'gay pride is an expression of God's love'. It's no longer a case of obfuscation, Christian Leaders are openly promoting LGBQTI and no-one seems to bat an eye lid.

In the last days perilous times will come (1 Timothy 1:3). Get ready to stand alone.

God Bless

Im sure generations have been saying they were the last one, but it sure is difficult to look back and see any previous time in church history where such a callous disregard for biblical truth existed. Not just a disregard, but flat out mockery and rebellion.

Perhaps this is the rebellion Paul wrote of in 2 Thes 2 that would precede the Anti-Christ?

 

[lismore]

Im sure generations have been saying they were the last one, but it sure is difficult to look back and see any previous time in church history where such a callous disregard for biblical truth existed. Not just a disregard, but flat out mockery and rebellion.

Hello ByTheSpirit. Thank you for your reply. I agree with you, 100%. In past generations lawlessness was there, but it could be subtle, cloaked in a certain veneer. Disguised. But now it's open for all to see. You can see open wickedness, as you say, mockery everywhere. Openly and unchallenged.

Perhaps this is the rebellion Paul wrote of in 2 Thes 2 that would precede the Anti-Christ?

I would say that is the trajectory we're now on. Definitely. How long before the end or if there will be any surprises along the way we don't know. But it is definitely the trajectory we're on.

This is the information age. In the Middle-Ages the bible was made hard to access. This was a certain excuse. But now someone can access the bible on their I phone with two clicks. People have no excuse. And despite it being the age of information, with more Christian resources and the bible available for anyone who wants one, it seem harder and harder to find anyone standing for the truth. A sign of the times- a famine of the Word during the Information Age.

God Bless You

 

[chevyontheriver]

Check it out,...

Transgender pastor claims bias, sues Lutheran denomination

A transgender Lutheran pastor claims he was forced out of his job and harassed, and that’s just the beginning of the complaints.

www.newsnationnow.com

That's the Lutherans having problems with this. It's hit a good portion of the mainline Protestant denominations, including the Baptists in some areas.

EDIT: Here is more spicy article on this,...

Nolte: Trans Bishop Sues Lutheran Denomination for Harassment, Discrimination

A transgender bishop, the Rev. Megan Rohrer, is suing a Lutheran denomination for harassment and discrimination.

www.breitbart.com

Oh, it's not just the mainline Protestants having trouble here. The Catholic Church is troubled by it and I even hear rumblings of it among the Orthodox. We are all up against it.

“Man sieht (One sees),

wie die Macht des Antichrist (how the power of the Antichrist)

sich ausbreitet (is expanding, or spreading out)

und kann nur beten (and can only pray),

dass der Herr (that the Lord)

uns kraftvolle Hirten schenkt (us powerful Shepherds gives, that is, gives us powerful Shepherds),

die seine Kirche in dieser Stunde der Not (who His Church in this hour of need)

gegen die Macht des Bösen verteidigen (against the power of evil defend).

 

[chevyontheriver]

Younger Christians seem to be much more liberal than older Christians, a demographic time-bomb.

I see a different trend going on. Post-Covid many of all ages have left the building maybe to never return. But of the young people who have not left, they are seriously on fire. Less people. Lots of young adults. And now quite a few babies. Oddly among Catholics it's the traditional Latin mass parishes that lead in this regard, but with the charismatic parishes doing well also. It's the parishes that want to ape the mainstream Protestants that are withering. Big surprise.

 

[WolfGate]

I see a different trend going on. Post-Covid many of all ages have left the building maybe to never return. But of the young people who have not left, they are seriously on fire. Less people. Lots of young adults. And now quite a few babies. Oddly among Catholics it's the traditional Latin mass parishes that lead in this regard, but with the charismatic parishes doing well also. It's the parishes that want to ape the mainstream Protestants that are withering. Big surprise.

Thank you for sharing that. I would never see it in my circles. Gives me an outside perspective to ponder as I see things going on around me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you for sharing that. I would never see it in my circles. Gives me an outside perspective to ponder as I see things going on around me.

Things can be dismal, but there are glimmers of hope too. I get depressed sometimes, but God does win in the end. So I keep an eye out for the signs that are all around. Like tonight we had the vigil of the Ascension. About 150 people showed up, which is pretty good for a weekday. Among them a young couple, with the woman wearing a veil up just a few rows. Veils used to be the norm for Catholic women but now they are rarer than hen's teeth. But behind her was a young religious sister in full habit (grey and white - I don't know which order that is) whom I had never seen before. And then the young woman in the row in front of us. And the young family a few rows back with a very new baby/ Glimmers of how it's not all doom and gloom. Sure there were people my age too, meaning old. It's a faithful parish, leaning more charismatic, and definitely not sold out to the encroaching sexual agenda.