Is This True? - Limited Atonement

[catholichomeschooler]

Calvinist believe that all those that are willing, that seek, that knock, that ask, that believe etc will be accepted. We don't believe that God/Christ rejects anyone that repents and seeks Him.

Interesting.

That's what Catholics believe.

Those who cooperate with God's grace will be saved.

 

[Hammster]

Interesting.

That's what Catholics believe.

Those who cooperate with God's grace will be saved.

The big difference is that you believe grace to be necessary, not sufficient.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess I'll do the work and let the chips fall where they may.

Wow. Finally doing some work.

So according to FG, "those He predestined He also called" refers to believers. I cannot seem to get him to give any sort of exegesis. This is as close as he's come. It's a bit odd, so I hoped he would clear it up. Instead, we have pages of him dodging doing so.

No, the pages of dodging are all yours.

So "the called" equals believers in v. 30. But does this make sense? It seems to me that "called" is used as a verb here, yet FG uses it as a noun. This is a bit confusing since as a noun, the sentence is nonsense.

The nonsense is your trying to twist my words. I never said that "called" is a noun. In fact, at the beginning of this post you acknowledged that I indicated that "those He called" REFERS to believers. I never said "called" is a noun, nor did I ever treat it as a noun. These cheap tricks do not bolster your defense.

The other definition he's used has been to equate the call to the gospel offer. Yes, more of a verb here.

"More" of a verb??? How does that work? Please demonstrate your view of what may be "less" of a verb.

But it does leave done questions that I'm sure will be discarded.

I suppose "done questions" has meaning, but not to me.

One, who are the predestined, and why are they the only ones who get this offer?

The predestined are the same ones as the called. Duh. I never said they are the only ones to get this offer. Still trying to put words in my mouth.

Two, why do they need this offer at all if they are predestined?

Romans 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

I thought all believers understood this principle.

Three, why doesn't everyone get this offer?

All who seek God (Acts 17:27) get the offer.

Will there be any concise answers? Will we get any sort of exegesis for this passage? Time will tell.

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Seems you didn't understand the sentence as a whole.

Seems you didn't understand what you wrote. Or just weren't truthful about what you wrote.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's a common misinterpretation that said passage is speaking about Atheists.

There is no misinterpretation. Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3. Directly.

The context is concerning those that behave as if God does not see or is watching.

Actually, the context for Rom 3:10 is v.9, where Paul makes the statement that both Jews and Gentiles alike are ALL under sin. Then He quotes from 6 OT passages to demonstrate the various ways that ALL are under sin.

You do pretzel work of the scriptures in order to establish your tradition. Just take what it says at face value.

I have no tradition. I DO take Scripture at face value. It would be nice if RT did the same.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Please share the verse that tells us that God predestines anyone for eternal life. We KNOW that eternal life is based on faith in Christ.

Oh I'm sorry, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, and predestined us for adoption as sons. Not eternal life. Just maybe like a few days then the fun's over.

Yes, you should be quite sorry for trying to force Eph 1:4 to MEAN what you claim. There is nothing in 1:4 about predestination or eternal life.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose "us" in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Who are the "us" in v.4? As a first person plural, it would include Paul and his audience, which is, by extention, ALL believers. So Paul is teaching that God chose believers.

It clearly does NOT say that God chose who will be believers.

The parenthetical phrase "in Him" clearly identifies the "us" as believers, because in 1:13 Paul tells us HOW one is placed "in Him", which is by faith.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Finally, Paul clearly identifies who the "us" are in v.19-
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The big difference is that you believe grace to be necessary, not sufficient.

How would you know that?

 

[Hammster]

Wow. Finally doing some work.


No, the pages of dodging are all yours.


The nonsense is your trying to twist my words. I never said that "called" is a noun. In fact, at the beginning of this post you acknowledged that I indicated that "those He called" REFERS to believers. I never said "called" is a noun, nor did I ever treat it as a noun. These cheap tricks do not bolster your defense.

So "the called" isn't a noun? Your view gets more and more confusing.

The predestined are the same ones as the called. Duh. I never said they are the only ones to get this offer. Still trying to put words in my mouth.

Not putting words in your mouth. Quite the opposite. I've spent pages trying to get you to exegete the passage using your definition of called. You've refused to do so and have kept putting it back on me. So I'm doing what you asked and am explaining WHY it doesn't make sense. Oh, and you used "RFE called" as a noun again.

Romans 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

I thought all believers understood this principle.

And now you are using called as a verb.

All who seek God (Acts 17:27) get the offer.

Yes, yes, and yes.[/QUOTE]

All of that, and still no exegesis. Maybe you don't see your view on 8:30 as confusing. I sure do, though. Why you will not just give a basic exegesis to clear this up is beyond me.

 

[Hammster]

Seems you didn't understand what you wrote. Or just weren't truthful about what you wrote.

I'm very truthful.

 

[Hammster]

How would you know that?

Because I'm familiar with synergism.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

The big difference is that you believe grace to be necessary, not sufficient.

Grace is sufficient and necessary. Without it we can't be saved.

 

[Hammster]

Grace is sufficient and necessary. Without it we can't be saved.

What part do works play in salvation?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

What part do works play in salvation?

We must cooperate with God's grace.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.



We can't do it alone, but we don't have to!!

 

[Hammster]

We must cooperate with God's grace.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.



We can't do it alone, but we don't have to!!

So I stand by my point that you see grace as necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So I stand by my point that you see grace as necessary, but not sufficient.

God's grace has appered to all men.

Do you think all men will be saved?

It is not a matter of grace being sufficient, it is a matter of men rejecting God's grace.

Paul illustrates this perfectly here:

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

 

[Hammster]

God's grace has appered to all men.

Do you think all men will be saved?

It is not a matter of grace being sufficient, it is a matter of men rejecting God's grace.

Paul illustrates this perfectly here:

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:1-14 NASB)

The grace that brings salvation actually saves those it comes to.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:1-14 NASB)

The grace that brings salvation actually saves those it comes to.

That's not what it says. We are capable of rejecting God's grace.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Hammster]

That's not what it says. We are capable of rejecting God's grace.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

That is what it says. And the verses you've posted have nothing to do with rejecting grace.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

That is what it says. And the verses you've posted have nothing to do with rejecting grace.

Yes they do. They warn us what happens if we don't endure, ie. stop cooperating with God's grace.

Why do you think the new testament is full of warnings against falling away?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The grace that brings salvation actually saves those it comes to.

When Eph 2:8 is considered, the grace that saves is through faith. Let's not forget that.

While grace does bring salvation (titus 2:11), that gift must be received, which is through believing.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.