Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Hans Blaster]

They can call themselves whatever they want.

I was referring for terms to use by trinitarian Christians such as yourself who deny their identity as Christians. I personally don't care what Mormons call themselves. Many non-Christians aren't anti-Christian. (I have no problem with Christians generally, for example.) In your view they are false Christians, or in the fancy tongue -- pseudo-Christians.

The standard of belief remains as it is, and they very purposely reject it in favor of something else, so they are (as all heretics are) self-condemned.

I don't accept the condemnation as meaningful.

I realize that means nothing to you as an atheist, but when talking about the basics of Christian belief, it's really easy to tell what they are and to measure whatever else is out there claiming to be Christian against them.

It didn't mean that much to me as a Christian either. Even after I knew a bit of Mormon theology, I was still fine with putting them in the "Christian" box. Their Sunday services didn't sound all that different from Baptists and I was willing to accept them as Christians despite the obvious (and even Calvinists).

We wrote a whole creed about it and everything, and it has stood for 1,600+ years and counting.

The funny thing about that creed is that I said it every week and thought I believed it, but on the trinity thing I couldn't quite hold it together. Everything else kept telling me that Jesus was the Son of God and not the same as God. Trinitarianism was something I told myself I believed even though I didn't really. (I don't think I was alone in that.)

(And the likes of Joseph 'Magic Rock in a Hat' Smith is certainly not a serious threat to that.)

I have seen the animated documentary...

 

[Zaha Torte]

Would you have preferred I just had said I wasn't interested in your bigotry and mocking attitude and that I find you to be an unserious person? I thought you might be someone worth talking to, but you seem intent on proving me wrong about that.

I'd rather we both stay on topic.

I am arguing that the existence of this organization is a sign that our society has gone past the point of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I believe that the motivations of this organization are evil - that they are spurred on by Satan and his minions - and that their fanaticism and the way they are organized is that of a cult.

Your claim that I am simply a bigot because I mock that which I find evil, and worthy of mockery is just your attempt to distract and deflect - a red herring a logical fallacy.

You are free to focus on me rather than my claim - but that is what is derailing any potential discussion.

 

[BCP1928]

I'd rather we both stay on topic.

I am arguing that the existence of this organization is a sign that our society has gone past the point of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I believe that the motivations of this organization are evil - that they are spurred on by Satan and his minions - and that their fanaticism and the way they are organized is that of a cult.

Your claim that I am simply a bigot because I mock that which I find evil, and worthy of mockery is just your attempt to distract and deflect - a red herring a logical fallacy.

You are free to focus on me rather than my claim - but that is what is derailing any potential discussion.

What organization?

 

[dzheremi]

I was referring for terms to use by trinitarian Christians such as yourself who deny their identity as Christians. I personally don't care what Mormons call themselves. Many non-Christians aren't anti-Christian. (I have no problem with Christians generally, for example.) In your view they are false Christians, or in the fancy tongue -- pseudo-Christians.

I don't accept the condemnation as meaningful.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it. It matters that it happens, so that the standard of belief is maintained. This is the revelation of God to humanity, not denying a label to a group out of spite or whatever else is imagined by those who don't care either way about the religion. Worship the Holy Trinity or get out.

It didn't mean that much to me as a Christian either. Even after I knew a bit of Mormon theology, I was still fine with putting them in the "Christian" box. Their Sunday services didn't sound all that different from Baptists and I was willing to accept them as Christians despite the obvious (and even Calvinists).

Again, it doesn't matter how anyone feels about it.

The funny thing about that creed is that I said it every week and thought I believed it, but on the trinity thing I couldn't quite hold it together. Everything else kept telling me that Jesus was the Son of God and not the same as God. Trinitarianism was something I told myself I believed even though I didn't really. (I don't think I was alone in that.)

Poor catechesis and/or a lack of understanding among those who set themselves up as teachers will always be something to strive against, yes. As to your personal belief, that's a personal issue and not really something I would want to get into on the forums either way. Everyone has their own journey and their own life to live.

I have seen the animated documentary...

I'm not sure which animated documentary you're referring to ("The Godmakers", perhaps? That particular film seems dated and needlessly slanderous to me, but that's usually the one that people have seen), but I mean what the LDS have had to admit more recently than that, since the invention of the internet and the corresponding loss of control over the presentation of their historical sources. Now they cannot deny that this method of 'translation' was used, and have even published photos of similar stones (I can't remember if they say that they have JS's actual seer stone or a replica) in an effort to normalize this practice in the minds of members who would've previously thought that the translation happened differently (because of the popularity of certain artistic depictions of JS "translating" by physically handling and 'reading' from the supposed plates).

 

[durangodawood]

They can call themselves whatever they want. The standard of belief remains as it is, and they very purposely reject it in favor of something else, so they are (as all heretics are) self-condemned. I realize that means nothing to you as an atheist, but when talking about the basics of Christian belief, it's really easy to tell what they are and to measure whatever else is out there claiming to be Christian against them. We wrote a whole creed about it and everything, and it has stood for 1,600+ years and counting. (And the likes of Joseph 'Magic Rock in a Hat' Smith is certainly not a serious threat to that.)

I do get how LDS seems like a newfangled contrivance. It does to me. But I wonder if that sense would fade after 1600+ years?

 

[Zaha Torte]

What organization?

That's the question. Whoever is pushing all this LGHDTV nonsense.

 

[BCP1928]

That's the question. Whoever is pushing all this LGHDTV nonsense.

A lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. Many of them out of concern for the LGBT people themselves. There is no "organization."

 

[durangodawood]

That's the question. Whoever is pushing all this LGHDTV nonsense.

Everyone thinks they need a new TV every 3 or 4 years. Im getting fed up with it too. But the electronics lobby and Walmart have their agenda.

 

[Zaha Torte]

A lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. Many of them out of concern for the LGBT people themselves. There is no "organization."

You mean a lot of different organizations - right?

I would argue that they do it out of concern for their shared ideologies.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Everyone thinks they need a new TV every 3 or 4 years. Im getting fed up with it too. But the electronics lobby and Walmart have their agenda.

Exactly. Things used to last, or you just called a repairman.

Everything is designed to break now.

 

[durangodawood]

Exactly. Things used to last, or you just called a repairman.

Everything is designed to break now.

My 40" Toshiba has a terrific picture and its been going strong for at least 12 years. Thing is "they" have trained us to replace TVs regardless of how well they work. Youre just supposed to go bigger and bigger. Or draw enough bandwidth to see the hairs on the tick on the dog in the background. Who needs it???

Darn HDTV agenda!

 

[Zaha Torte]

My 40" Toshiba has a terrific picture and its been going strong for at least 12 years. Thing is "they" have trained us to replace TVs regardless of how well they work. Youre just supposed to go bigger and bigger. Or draw enough bandwidth to see the hairs on the tick on the dog in the background. Who needs it???

Darn HDTV agenda!

Is it one of those TVs that is connected to the internet and gets occasional "updates"?

I swear my TV operates slower every time it "updates".

 

[Zaha Torte]

They can call themselves whatever they want. The standard of belief remains as it is, and they very purposely reject it in favor of something else, so they are (as all heretics are) self-condemned. I realize that means nothing to you as an atheist, but when talking about the basics of Christian belief, it's really easy to tell what they are and to measure whatever else is out there claiming to be Christian against them. We wrote a whole creed about it and everything, and it has stood for 1,600+ years and counting. (And the likes of Joseph 'Magic Rock in a Hat' Smith is certainly not a serious threat to that.)

What "standard of belief" are you referring to and who set it?

 

[Zaha Torte]

I have seen the animated documentary...

Which one was it?

 

[durangodawood]

Is it one of those TVs that is connected to the internet and gets occasional "updates"?

I swear my TV operates slower every time it "updates".

No, its a "dumb" TV and thats probably whats keeping it alive.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Now they cannot deny that this method of 'translation' was used, and have even published photos of similar stones (I can't remember if they say that they have JS's actual seer stone or a replica) in an effort to normalize this practice in the minds of members who would've previously thought that the translation happened differently (because of the popularity of certain artistic depictions of JS "translating" by physically handling and 'reading' from the supposed plates).

All the methods of translation were shared with me as I grew up in the LDS Church.

He was eventually able to translate by handling the plates.

I have seen artistic depictions of the Prophet looking in a hat as well.

The Church does have one of his seer stones - not the Urim and Thummim.

 

[Zaha Torte]

No, its a "dumb" TV and thats probably whats keeping it alive.

Agreed.

Darn that LGHDTV agenda!

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am arguing that the existence of this organization is a sign that our society has gone past the point of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I believe that the motivations of this organization are evil - that they are spurred on by Satan and his minions - and that their fanaticism and the way they are organized is that of a cult.

I don't recall any organization being mentioned. What organization are you talking about?

 

[dzheremi]

I do get how LDS seems like a newfangled contrivance. It does to me. But I wonder if that sense would fade after 1600+ years?

Well, they're currently at 194 years, so this will not be a question that anyone here can answer, nor even our great, great, great grandchildren (barring some very impressive medical advancements in the future).

 

[Zaha Torte]

I don't recall any organization being mentioned. What organization are you talking about?

There are many organizations and institutions that promote these things.