Is Messianic Judaism More Biblical Than Catholicism

[AbbaLove]

That being said I think in my opinion I have an embarrassment of riches of evidences when it comes to this discussion compared to what I understand about Messianic Christianity.

The nomenclature Messianic Christianity is an affront and possibly an oxymoron to many Messianic Jews & Messianic Gentiles as well as confusing terminology to mainline Christianity.

What is Messianic Judaism? - Congregation Shema Yisrael​

Using Catholic tradition to establish Catholic doctrine is like using the Talmud to establish Judaism. If either is to be true, it must be determined on the basis of the Bible, and I just cannot see that happening here.

Give me time with this. There is much on which I need to ponder before I go forward with this.

The Roman Catholic Church isn't exactly famous for it's Bible study. Some great theological and doctrinal works but exposition and exegesis isn't really their strong suite. The Messianic Jews I have been acquainted with I found to be right at home doing in depth Biblical studies but that's a general impression.

Still, Rome worked tirelessly to preserve the manuscripts our English translations are based on. I'd like to take this one on just because of the subject matter.

The intent of this Proposal was to discuss/debate what is believed to be a most important and major difference in how Messianic Judaism interprets the Holy Scriptures compared to how Catholicism (as well as Protestantism) interprets the Holy Scriptures.

Is it possible for this discussion/debate to proceed on the premise that Messianic Judaism is “more Biblical” than both Catholicism and Protestantism (mainline Christianity) with respect to the benefits derived from honoring a Saturday Sabbath (Isaiah 58:13,14 - KJV, NIV, NJB).

Is it not possible to first begin this discussion/debate on why Catholics and Protestants (mainline Christianity) concluded long ago that it's no longer necessary to -- "Remember the Sabbath [7th] day, to keep it holy” and instead honor a Sunday Christian Sabbath (the first day of the week) as being just as Biblical or perhaps even “more Biblical” than a Saturday Messianic Jewish Sabbath on the seventh day of the week.

Just wondering where we are with this proposal?

Is it possible to limit this discussion/debate to what each opponent views as Biblical Truth based on the Holy Scriptures (whether KJV, NJB, NIV) as opposed to their religious doctrinal traditions. Both Messianic Judaism and Catholicism (Christianity) each have their share of religious doctrinal traditions that have been passed down for hundreds if not thousands of years … some very good and some questionable.


The original purpose of this Debate Proposal was for all of us to get a better understanding of how each debater interprets the Biblical Truths of the Holy Scriptures in light of both the Original Covenant and the New Covenant each enhancing, clarifying and building upon each other rather than causing dissension.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Is it possible to limit this discussion/debate to what each opponent views as Biblical Truth based on the Holy Scriptures (whether KJV, NJB, NIV) as opposed to their religious doctrinal traditions. Both Messianic Judaism and Catholicism (Christianity) each have their share of religious doctrinal traditions that have been passed down for hundreds if not thousands of years … some very good and some questionable.


The original purpose of this Debate Proposal was for all of us to get a better understanding of how each debater interprets the Biblical Truths of the Holy Scriptures in light of both the Original Covenant and the New Covenant each enhancing, clarifying and building upon each other rather than causing dissension.

We can put what ever limits the opponents agree upon; we just need a couple of opponents.

 

[AbbaLove]

We can put what ever limits the opponents agree upon; we just need a couple of opponents.

Hoping two congenial debaters are open to first focusing their discussion on why Catholicism and Protestantism (mainline Christianity) concluded long ago that it's no longer necessary to -- "Remember the Sabbath [seventh] day, to keep it holy.” Catholicism and all of mainline Christianity honors their weekly religious observance (sabbath) on the first day of the week as being just as Biblical or even “more Biblical” than Messianic Judaism’s religious Sabbath on the Jewish seventh day of the week from Friday sunset to Saturday sundown.

The title of this most informative Debate (discussion) Proposal as suggested by MarkRohfrietsch would be “Is Catholicism More Biblical Than Messianic Judaism.” Mark Kennedy may better represent both Catholic and Protestant (universal mainline Christianity) interpretation of the Holy Scriptures with respect to Christians religious fellowshipping tradition on the 1st day of the week as opposed to Messianic Judaism’s fellowshipping tradition of “Shabbat Shalom” on the 7th day of the week.

It might be helpful if any future debates with respect to “Is Catholicism More Biblical Than Messianic Judaism” be confined to specific doctrines of ‘significant’ differing interpretation. For example Athanasias would be most qualified when it comes to interpreting the Holy Scriptures with respect to his insights on “Properly Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus.”

Hoping this is helpful going forward

 

[Athanasias]

[/SIZE][/FONT]Hoping two congenial debaters are open to first focusing their discussion on why Catholicism and Protestantism (mainline Christianity) concluded long ago that it's no longer necessary to -- "Remember the Sabbath [seventh] day, to keep it holy.” Catholicism and all of mainline Christianity honors their weekly religious observance (sabbath) on the first day of the week as being just as Biblical or even “more Biblical” than Messianic Judaism’s religious Sabbath on the Jewish seventh day of the week from Friday sunset to Saturday sundown.

The title of this most informative Debate (discussion) Proposal as suggested by MarkRohfrietsch would be “Is Catholicism More Biblical Than Messianic Judaism.” Mark Kennedy may better represent both Catholic and Protestant (universal mainline Christianity) interpretation of the Holy Scriptures with respect to Christians religious fellowshipping tradition on the 1st day of the week as opposed to Messianic Judaism’s fellowshipping tradition of “Shabbat Shalom” on the 7th day of the week.

It might be helpful if any future debates with respect to “Is Catholicism More Biblical Than Messianic Judaism” be confined to specific doctrines of ‘significant’ differing interpretation. For example Athanasias would be most qualified when it comes to interpreting the Holy Scriptures with respect to his insights on “Properly Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus.”

Hoping this is helpful going forward

I am fine with that. I think Mark would do well in the sabbath issue. In the future if you ever did want to do one on Mary or any one of the other topics I listed 1). Marian Dogma's all of them such as the Immaculate Conception(Mary's sinlessness) and Bodily Assumption and Perpetual Virginity, 2). Marian titles and roles in salvation history such as Queen Mother and her intercession for the Church 3) Prayers to dead saints and honoring them or venerating them 4) Purgatory 5) Indulgences 6), The Mass itself, its nature, and the Eucharistic real presence 7). Priesthood, 8). The Papacy 9) candles, Altars, Incense, Vestments, images, tabernacles etc 10). confession to a priest, 11). Sacramental Baptism, 12) Infant Baptism 13) Sacred Tradition as opposed to sola scripture, 14) Old Testament prophecies of the Catholic Church going back to Abraham and the major and minor prophets. I would be happy to oblige and dialog on why I (and many Jewish converts to the Catholic faith) feel Catholicism best represents a fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism in those doctrines that seem to be lacking completely from Messianic Judaism.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bumping this to see if we have any more interest...

Mark

 

[Santiago M Anaya]

In other words (for added clarification) "Is the religious indoctrination of Messianic Judaism more in line with the Word of God (e.g the New Jerusalem Bible) than is the religious indoctrination of Catholicism."

Would hope that the two opponents restrict their replies to the positive aspects of what they interpret/perceive as "religious indoctrination" and not any presupposed negative aspects.

Wha is messianic judaism:?!! Can you explain that to me please..


God Bless...........Brother James

 

[kepha31]

Catholics have their Sunday obligation fulfilled with a Saturday evening Mass; it shouldn't be an issue with sabbatarians.

Any discussion of Mary should be accompanied with sound Christology. Leaving Jesus out of the picture is a trap. "Mother of Jesus" could imply she was just a rent-a-womb for the human half of Jesus. So we have to know who Jesus is. Sound Christology. Either Mary bore God in her womb or a divine/human oreo cookie, metaphorically speaking.

 

[Athanasias]

I am still fine with doing this. However I have not found a messianic who wants to do this with me. I really would like to discuss all the issues like the papacy and purgatory and Mary and praying to saints and indulgences that are rooted in Jewish theology in scripture and tradition but lack in the messianic faith. I think not only scripture but also sacred tradition should be used as both Jew and Catholic alike adhere to both scripture and tradition and not scripture alone.

here is some info to look into.

http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/jewish-roots-of-the-church/

 

[AbbaLove]

What is messianic judaism:?!! Can you explain that to me please..

God Bless...........Brother James

See ... What is Messianic Judaism? ( What is Messianic Judaism? ) as opposed to: What is the Hebraic Roots Movement? ( What is the Hebrew Roots movement? )

My intention was that "Messianic Judaism" would not just be limited to the MJ Movement beginning in the 60s and 70s, but naturally inclusive of 1st Century followers when the letters/books of the NT were written/preserved. In other words all debating would have to be supported by the infallible Word whether one chose the New Jerusalem Bible or the King James Bible or the Complete Jewish Bible.

The first debate I envisioned (as previously mentioned) was to be limited to either Mary's role as understood in Catholicism versus Mary's role as understood in Messianic Judaism OR the Sabbath(Saturday) vs Sunday as the day of Rest/Worship. At one time yonah_mishael expressed a possible interest in debating if just one single topic (i.e. Mary) were discussed at a time (per debate) as agreed upon by the two debaters as would be spelled out by MarkRohfrietsch.

Perhaps, an even more relevant topic to debate this time of the year would be that of Christmas (Christ-Mass) as it relates to discussing the birthday(date) of Christ from the perspective of Catholicism versus the perspective of Messianic Judaism. Although the discussion of Mary's overall role is very relevant at "Christmas" the discussion/debate would be about "December 25th" as the date that all of Christianity recognizes/celebrates as Christ's birth. We assume that Athanasias is a potential Christian candidate. Is there an interested MJ candidate to represent the view of 2,000 years of Messianic Judaism ?

 

[Athanasias]

oooh You know what I forgot about Mary and her role in salvation history. All of her dogmas are rooted in a Jewish fulfillment. We honor the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary(Mary herself being conceived without sin) Dec 8th and the feast of the miracle of Our Lady of Guadeloupe shortly afterward.

I think we really should dialog on the jewish roots and biblical fullfillments of her dogmas. It seems most fitting this time of year.

 

[AbbaLove]

oooh You know what I forgot about Mary and her role in salvation history. All of her dogmas are rooted in a Jewish fulfillment. We honor the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary(Mary herself being conceived without sin) Dec 8th and the feast of the miracle of Our Lady of Guadeloupe shortly afterward.

I think we really should dialog on the jewish roots and biblical fullfillments of her dogmas. It seems most fitting this time of year.

Dogma: A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

incontrovertible: Not able to be denied or disputed
synonyms: indisputable, irrefutable, beyond dispute, unarguable, undebatable.

Is Athanasias open to presenting background supporting evidence on the Church’s dogma as it relates to “December 25th” “Christ-Mass” as the birth date of the Christ Child as being incontrovertibly true?

So, it would seem MarkRohfrietsch needs to determine (make a decision) whether or not Athanasias is even willing to consider the possibility that some dogmas(or traditions) of Catholicism/Christianity such as the origin of the birth date of the Christ Child on December 25th, is debatable or is viewed by Athanasias as incontrovertibly true.

I can't speak for yonah_mishael, but it does seem that Athanasias primary interest is in presenting dogmas of Catholicism as being incontrovertibly true and therefore undebatable.

 

[Athanasias]

[/SIZE][/FONT]
Dogma: A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

incontrovertible: Not able to be denied or disputed
synonyms: indisputable, irrefutable, beyond dispute, unarguable, undebatable.

Is Athanasias open to presenting background supporting evidence on the Church’s dogma as it relates to “December 25th” “Christ-Mass” as the birth date of the Christ Child as being incontrovertibly true?

So, it would seem MarkRohfrietsch needs to determine (make a decision) whether or not Athanasias is even willing to consider the possibility that some dogmas(or traditions) of Catholicism/Christianity such as the origin of the birth date of the Christ Child on December 25th, is debatable or is viewed by Athanasias as incontrovertibly true.

I can't speak for yonah_mishael, but it does seem that Athanasias primary interest is in presenting dogmas of Catholicism as being incontrovertibly true and therefore undebatable.

I am sorry you feel that way. No to us a dogma is a doctrine that has been infalliby declared. I cannot prove the infallibility of the doctrine nor is that what I want to prove. To do that we have to discuss the Papacy and its deep Jewish roots and other issues.

Rather what I want to do is have a discussion on Mary and her doctrines and I would love to use evidence from the old testament and early church tradition and show how they relate to her doctrinal fulfillment's as we see her.

Or I would like to discuss the many doctrines and practices that the Catholic church has which are rooted in Jewish tradition and Jewish scripture that the messianics do not. Things like veneration and prayers to dead saints, indulgences, purgatory, the Papacy itself, Priesthood of various levels, the todah sacrifice and its fulfillment along with the passover sacrifice in the eucharistic sacrifice, vestments, ritual prayers, altars, the use of tradition nd not just scripture alone, and a sacrificial liturgy, tabernacles, Holy water, etc.

I think there is a ton of evidence for those things rooted in Jewish scripture and tradition and I would love to dialog on them.

The date set for X-mas has no primary importance in itself and is not infallible nor a dogma but rather part of a liturgical calendar. Hey a Liturgical Calendar itself is also both Jewish and Catholic.

So I have no desire to talk about the issue of X-mass. That is small potatoes. What I want to dialog on is the pleathora of other doctrines that Catholics and Jews share in common or that Catholics developed out of Jewish roots that many Hebrew Catholics recognize but messianics do not. At least that is where I stand.

I cannot prove these doctrines and practices as true but to my knowledge there has not been a good prayerful dialog on the reasons we hold these from a Jewish fulfillment perspective. I would like to then start one as my professor and other Jewish converts to the Catholic faith see these things very well. That is all I desire.

 

[AbbaLove]

The date set for X-mas has no primary importance in itself and is not infallible nor a dogma but rather part of a liturgical calendar. Hey a Liturgical Calendar itself is also both Jewish and Catholic.

Perhaps a discussion on whether or not the Catholic Liturgical Calendar for December is recognized by Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) as being both Jewish and Catholic. For example the month of December.
Roman Catholic Calendar for A.D. 2014

The Torah faith icon members of the MJ forum consider their Jewish brethren that have converted to Catholicism as Catholic Christians; whereas Torah Observant Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) observe the Hebrew months and the Hebrew calendar ... http://www.hebcal.com/converter/
As for example the appointed times of the Feasts of the Lord ...
Jewish Holidays and Festivals
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/55194/jewish/Introduction.htm
http://redmoonrapture.com/2014-2015.html

Perhaps what is more important than Catholic liturgy is the Word of Jesus/Yeshua which both (Catholicism & Messianic Judaism) are in agreement is Incontrovertible Truth.

Incontrovertible Truth: Not able to be denied or disputed
synonyms: indisputable, irrefutable, beyond dispute, unarguable, undebatable.

Luke 10:27 (King James Bible)
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:27 (New Jerusalem Bible)
He replied, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbour as yourself.'
Luke 10:27 (Complete Jewish Bible)
He answered, “You are to love Adonai your God with all. your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your understanding; and your neighbor as yourself.”

John 13:34 (KJB)
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:34 (NJB)
I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you.
John 13:34 (CJB)
“I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.

John 5:24 (KJB)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (NJB)
In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 (CJB)
Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!

 

[Athanasias]

[/SIZE][/FONT]
Perhaps a discussion on whether or not the Catholic Liturgical Calendar for December is recognized by Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) as being both Jewish and Catholic. For example the month of December.
Roman Catholic Calendar for A.D. 2014

The Torah faith icon members of the MJ forum consider their Jewish brethren that have converted to Catholicism as Catholic Christians; whereas Torah Observant Messianic Jews (Messianic Judaism) observe the Hebrew months and the Hebrew calendar ... Hebrew Date Converter - 5th of Kislev, 5775 | Hebcal Jewish Calendar
As for example the appointed times of the Feasts of the Lord ...
Jewish Holidays and Festivals
Introduction to the Jewish Calendar - Jewish Calendar
2014-2015 | Red Moon Rapture

Perhaps what is more important than Catholic liturgy is the Word of Jesus/Yeshua which both (Catholicism & Messianic Judaism) are in agreement is Incontrovertible Truth.

Incontrovertible Truth: Not able to be denied or disputed
synonyms: indisputable, irrefutable, beyond dispute, unarguable, undebatable.

Luke 10:27 (King James Bible)
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:27 (New Jerusalem Bible)
He replied, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbour as yourself.'
Luke 10:27 (Complete Jewish Bible)
He answered, “You are to love Adonai your God with all. your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your understanding; and your neighbor as yourself.”

John 13:34 (KJB)
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:34 (NJB)
I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you.
John 13:34 (CJB)
“I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.

John 5:24 (KJB)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (NJB)
In all truth I tell you, whoever listens to my words, and believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement such a person has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 (CJB)
Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!

Thanks brother Abba for that explanation. Happy Thanksgiving! Ok i see what you are saying. We certainly agree about Christ Jesus(The Word of God made flesh) in common but we often disagree about what makes up His Word in divine revelation to us. Like the Jews, Catholics, and the early Christians all held to both the written and oral traditions of the apostles and prophets and not a sola scriptura position. This is one reason why many Hebrew Catholics see themselves as fulfilled Jews. It is true that they keep certain Jewish feast as well. They do not see their Catholicism as contradictory to their judaism or jewish background at all but rather a complete historical and doctrinal fulfillment of it. See the link here:

hebrewcatholic.net


At any rate if you want to find someone to dialog on X-mas or the liturgical calendar then it would not be me. I just do not see those things as central and nor do any of the Jewish converts to Catholicism that I know. But I do know all those things I listed that were doctrines and liturgies and practices did convince them that the Catholic faith is the true historical and theological fulfillment of Judaism and helped them to convert too.

So dialoging prayerfully on the evidences they see for Mary and her doctrines or any of the other things I mentioned such as veneration and prayers to dead saints, indulgences, purgatory, the Papacy itself, Priesthood of various levels, the Todah sacrifice and its fulfillment along with the passover sacrifice in the eucharistic sacrifice, vestments, ritual prayers, altars, incense, the use of tradition and not just scripture alone, and a sacrificial liturgy, tabernacles, Holy water, etc. would be most helpful to many to see what many have found to be true.

The Hebrew Catholics I know and I myself think there is a ton of evidence for those things rooted in Jewish scripture and Jewish tradition and I would love to dialog on them mainly because I have not seen anyone defend or explain Mary or any of those other Catholic doctrines and practices in relation to jewish fulfillment yet.

So that is where I stand. God bless you my brother.

 

[kepha31]

It's hard to dialog about Messianic Judaism when the tenants vary from one congregation to the next.

Perhaps what is more important than Catholic liturgy is the Word of Jesus/Yeshua which both (Catholicism & Messianic Judaism) are in agreement is Incontrovertible Truth.

Easter falls three days after Passover, which is based on the Hebrew lunar calender. That explains why Easter is not a fixed date, and neither is Passover. As for Dec. 25 being the birthdate of Christ, no one has ever dogmatically declared that to be the actual date. It is the one day of the year chosen by Christians in the earliest centuries to celebrate the birth of the Messiah. When the Church officially put it in to the liturgical calendar is irrelevant. If the Church wanted to change it to July, she has the authority to do so.

Zechariah was acting as high priest when the birth of St. John the baptizer was announced to him in the Holy of Holies in the Temple. That would have been on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement which falls in late September. St. John was conceived shortly thereafter during Sukkot, the Festival of Booths.

At the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin Mary was told that Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant. That would have been in late March. (BTW the feast of the Annunciation is celebrated on March 25th in the Roman Calendar.)

Nine months later Jesus was born sometime in late December.

Now there is an interesting coincidence with all this. St. John would have been born near the Summer Solstice (the longest day of the year) everyday after that would get shorter until the Winter Solstice six months later, which is the shortest day of the year. Every day after that would get longer. In the First Century the Winter Solstice fell on December 25th.

It would be fitting that Jesus would have been born on the shortest day of the year because he is the "Light of the World":

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12)

Everyday after his birth there was more light.

Also St. John the Baptizer said of himself:

He must increase, but I must decrease.” (John 3:30)

Which is exactly what happened to the daylight after their respective births. (This was the point St. Augustine made in his championing the celebration of Jesus' birth on the Winter Solstice).

So despite the objections of some pundits, December 25th is a very reasonable date to celebrate Jesus' birth and not a concession to paganism.

The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until 273 AD. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!

None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. It appears that the Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.

 

[Interplanner]

Interesting points Kepha. I have always like the 'aesthetic' appeal of the Light coming when the world is darkest.

 

[Athanasias]

Here is a decent one hour radio program on the Jewish roots of the Catholic faith with Dr Tyalor MArshall. . He makes very Catholic connections to Mary and other things. He explains well the Jewish roots. Being Catholic truly is being a fulfilled Jew as many former Jews have seen. He wrote a book on how Jewish the Catholic Faith is called "the crucified rabbi Jesus and the Jewish roots of the Catholic faith":


http://www.amazon.com/Crucified-Rab...id=1417378691&sr=8-1&keywords=crucified+rabbi

Here is the radio show

http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/does-the-pope-wear-a-yarmulke-3684#

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Since there seems to be a bit of dialogue going on in an informal way; what would you guys think about moving this to "Denomination Specific Theology"?