Is Messianic Judaism More Biblical Than Catholicism

[AbbaLove]

Would such a formal debate proposal be considered off limits in this MJ forum?

 

[AbbaLove]

In other words (for added clarification) "Is the religious indoctrination of Messianic Judaism more in line with the Word of God (e.g the New Jerusalem Bible) than is the religious indoctrination of Catholicism."

Would hope that the two opponents restrict their replies to the positive aspects of what they interpret/perceive as "religious indoctrination" and not any presupposed negative aspects.

 

[AbbaLove]

In place of "religious indoctrination" substitute "religious traditions" as being more favorable in the above clarification. A couple examples of "religious traditions" would be: Honoring the Sabbath and Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think you have a good topic here; would you be one of the participants?

 

[AbbaLove]

I think you have a good topic here; would you be one of the participants?

I’m more of a peanut spectator. Was envisioning more of a fun-loving TagTeam matchup with You and Tishri1 in opposing corners along with a compatible wise & witty partner for good overall effect. Two heads are better than one with each TagTeam having at least 48 hours to get their heads together for the next go-a-round.

Any Peanut Gallery comments would likewise be wise & witty with the objective being clean uppercuts as opposed to low undercuts. Any way that’s my 2 cents--hoping that others will weigh-in with a fair exchange as to what two religious traditions (one from each camp) to debate. The objective being to emphasize the positive while minimizing the negative of your opponents perceived religious indoctrination.

Witty - showing or characterized by amiable inventive verbal stimulation
Wise - having and showing experience, knowledge, and good judgment

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I’m more of a peanut spectator. Was envisioning more of a fun-loving TagTeam matchup with You and Tishri1 in opposing corners along with a compatible wise & witty partner for good overall effect. Two heads are better than one with each TagTeam having at least 48 hours to get their heads together for the next go-a-round.

Any Peanut Gallery comments would likewise be wise & witty with the objective being clean uppercuts as opposed to low undercuts. Any way that’s my 2 cents--hoping that others will weigh-in with a fair exchange as to what two religious traditions (one from each camp) to debate. The objective being to emphasize the positive while minimizing the negative of your opponents perceived religious indoctrination.

Witty - showing or characterized by amiable inventive verbal stimulation
Wise - having and showing experience, knowledge, and good judgment

You are most kind, and this is an interesting concept. Unfortunately, I'm a bit tied up with such a discussion, but this one is Catholic-Lutheran. We are talking our way through 500 years worth of ingrained differences; so between work, moderating and that discussion, I would not be able to devote a fair and reasonable amount of effort to such a project. I'm going to ask around though... I know people.

 

[AbbaLove]

Envision two amicable opponents showing us an example of how to go a few rounds without running around or throwing any low undercuts.

More of a sparring match (no heavy blows) of complimentary tact. The challenge being the adept inclusion of wit and wisdom in what is otherwise considered a contentious subject.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm working on it... I have one opponent.

 

[AbbaLove]

... but this one is Catholic-Lutheran. We are talking our way through 500 years worth of ingrained differences ...

I'm going to ask around though... I know people .

I'm working on it... I have one opponent.

It will be insightful to hear their own unique perspective. It might be helpful if each opponent briefly defines their own understanding of “Messianic Judaism” as well as “More Biblical” in their intro statement.

Maybe, it's OK if they agree to disagree on their own view/slant of “Messianic Judaism” and “More Biblical” as long as truly expressing their own religious perspective of these two phrases. Thus wit and wisdom becomes more of a challenge as this debate progresses.

Is the first opponent ready to offer up an introduction in hopes of encouraging an opposing opponent to come forward?

Are these two religious traditions agreeable with both opponents?
1. Honoring the Sabbath (Messianic Judaism)
2. Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus (Catholicism)

My 2 cents is now spent ... leaving it up to Mark and the congenial foes to put right the details.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It will be insightful to hear their own unique perspective. It might be helpful if each opponent briefly defines their own understanding of “Messianic Judaism” as well as “More Biblical” in their intro statement.

Maybe, it's OK if they agree to disagree on their own view/slant of “Messianic Judaism” and “More Biblical” as long as truly expressing their own religious perspective of these two phrases. Thus wit and wisdom becomes more of a challenge as this debate progresses.

Is the first opponent ready to offer up an introduction in hopes of encouraging an opposing opponent to come forward?

Are these two religious traditions agreeable with both opponents?
1. Honoring the Sabbath (Messianic Judaism)
2. Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus (Catholicism)

My 2 cents is now spent ... leaving it up to Mark and the congenial foes to put right the details.

I have a second opponent in mind, and will be in touch soon.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have a second opponent in mind, and will be in touch soon.

Awaiting a reply.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It will be insightful to hear their own unique perspective. It might be helpful if each opponent briefly defines their own understanding of “Messianic Judaism” as well as “More Biblical” in their intro statement.

Maybe, it's OK if they agree to disagree on their own view/slant of “Messianic Judaism” and “More Biblical” as long as truly expressing their own religious perspective of these two phrases. Thus wit and wisdom becomes more of a challenge as this debate progresses.

Is the first opponent ready to offer up an introduction in hopes of encouraging an opposing opponent to come forward?

Are these two religious traditions agreeable with both opponents?
1. Honoring the Sabbath (Messianic Judaism)
2. Honoring Mary the Mother of Jesus (Catholicism)

My 2 cents is now spent ... leaving it up to Mark and the congenial foes to put right the details.

I like the above, and would like to include it in the discussion of the stipulations.

We have our cordial opponents.

In one corner we have Athanasias, a Catholic Scholar and a good and long time friend of mine here at CF. In the other corner, representing the Messianic Jews we have (hang on to your hats!)... yonah_mishael; while not MJ himself, he is a gifted debater, and I have it on good authority that he will be an advocate of MJism against his most worthy opponent.

I will be setting up a proposed set of stipulations here, and both will have to agree before the debate is set up.

For this debate, I will be setting up a peanut gallery in the MJ forum, and one in GT as well. I will see what Athanasias thinks about setting one up in the Catholic forum as well, that will be his call.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'm going to finish the Isaiah 53 debate before starting with this one, of course. I hope that I can make an admirable defense of Messianic Judaism, never having argued for it before. I may need to ask for some support in one point - the position of MJism on Paul's doctrine. I have a real problem with reading Paul in support of MJism (and there are many who call themselves MJ who reject Paul completely). But, I will do my best to try to articulate what I have understood from others regarding Paul's position on Torah keeping, even though I generally disagree with it.

 

[Athanasias]

Neato this will be a fun dialog. I have no idea what to expect as far as substance goes on what will be discussed doctrinally, so this will be to me more of a friendly dialog on what we believe and why we disagree or better yet why each of us believe our respective religions fulfill more of the scriptural revelations then the other does. But I do expect this will be fun all around. Yonah it is a pleasure to meet you my friend. God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Now that both of you are here, I will put together some stipulations based on AbbaLove's suggestions and we can take some time to refine or expand these as needed. Now all I need is a bit more time (Athanasias, you are going to have to wait a few days longer for my reply to our discussion).

Blessings to you both!

Mark

 

[Steve Petersen]

IMO this would be kind of a pointless debate because there is no governing authority in MJism. You would need to define MJism before any useful debate could be undertaken.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

IMO this would be kind of a pointless debate because there is no governing authority in MJism. You would need to define MJism before any useful debate could be undertaken.

Steve,

This is a proposal thread, not for discussion or debate of a topic. I'm not going to delete your post, but I ask that you refrain from posting in this thread. What I'm going to do though, is once the debate is set up and I open a Peanut Gallery thread, I will move it and it will be the first one in the discussion thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Athanasias and yonah_mishael;

Which one of you guys would like to go first. I'm thinking that Athanasias beginning would give Yonah some things to build on; bit I'm easy.
http://www.christianforums.com/users/212579/

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'd certainly appreciate it.

 

[Athanasias]

Okey Dokey I will be glad to go first. There is just so much doctrinally that I beleive fulfills Judiasm beautifully and is more scriptural and Jewish then Messianic Judaism/Christians. So I will lay it all out in a general way first and then allow Yonah to give his understanding and say why he does not think that Catholicism is more biblical then Messianic Judaism.

Let me knowwhen I should start.

Hey Yonah would you like to not put a limit on rounds since there is so much to cover? Also I am thinking not putting a time limit on this either for each answer(kinda like Mark and I have done). I see this as a prayerful dialog and not as a hard core debate but there is alot I bet we can learn from each other theologically and I look forward to learning from you and to lay out some of what I think are the strongest Catholic evidences of this issue. Perhaps we will also both clear up confusion on each others religion in this dialog too.