Interesting Irenaeus stuff........

[Iollain]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm

10. Now this God is glorified by His Word who is His Son continually,33 and by the Holy Spirit who is the Wisdom of the Father of all: and the power(s) of these, (namely) of the Word and Wisdom, which are called Cherubim and Seraphim,34 with unceasing voices glorify God; and |80 every created thing that is in the heavens offers glory to God the Father of all.35 He by His Word has created the whole world, and in the world are the angels; and to all the world He has given laws wherein each several thing should abide, and according to that which is determined by God should not pass their bounds, each fulfilling his appointed task.

34. 5 Origen in his Commentary on Romans (III, § 8) interprets the two Cherubim over the mercy-seat as the Son and the Holy Spirit. In De Principiis (I, Hi. 4, IV, iii. 26) he gives the same interpretation of the two Seraphim of Isa. vi. 3, saying that he received it from his Hebrew teacher: he adds that the same applies to the two living creatures of Hab. iii. 2 (LXX). Philo ( Vit. Mos. iii. 8) had interpreted the two Cherubim as ..., the latter ku&rioj. This probably paved the way for Origen's interpretation.


Irenaeus calls the Cherubim the Son and the Spirit.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No...he called them "powers", a type of Angel.

Angels
ArchAngels
Powers
Dominions
Thrones
etc etc

Forgive me...

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable identifying angelic beings with the coeternal persons of the Trinity...

 

[stumpjumper]

Irenaeus calls the Cherubim the Son and the Spirit.

Huh?

It reads to me like he's saying that the Cherubim and Seraphim are Powers of the Son and the Spirit...

 

[Iollain]

yes i see it says the powers of, and the cherubim on the mercy seat represent the Son and the Spirit acccording to Origen?..........i suppose God is all in all so the showing of His power has to start somewhere

makes sence i guess Jesus and the Spirit are God's main worship leaders.

 

[Iollain]

12. Now, having made man lord of the earth and all things in it, He secretly appointed him lord also of those who were servants in it. They however were in their perfection; but the lord, that is, man, was (but) small; for he was a child; and it was necessary that he should grow, and so come to (his) perfection. And, that he might have his nourishment and growth with festive and dainty meats, He prepared him a place better than this world,40 excelling in air, beauty, light, food, plants, |82 fruit, water, and all other necessaries of life: and its name is Paradise. And so fair and good was this Paradise, that the Word of God continually resorted thither, and walked and talked with the man, figuring beforehand the things that should be in the future, (namely) that He should dwell with him and talk with him, and should be with men, teaching them righteousness. But man was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected; wherefore also he was easily led astray by the deceiver.



.....interesting here too

 

[Iollain]

18. And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them: and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants. And the angels brought as presents to their wives teachings of wickedness,52 in that they brought |86 them the virtues of roots and herbs, dyeing in colours and cosmetics, the discovery of rare substances, love-potions, aversions, amours, concupiscence, constraints of love, spells of bewitchment, and all sorcery and idolatry hateful to God; by the entry of which things into the world evil extended and spread, while righteousness was diminished and enfeebled.


........here is the 2nd ECF i've read that believed in the 'angel and women' unions, but it looks like from the prior paragraph that it was demon possession?

'Now the apostate angel, who led man into disobedience and made him sinful and caused his expulsion from Paradise, not content with the first evil, wrought a second on the brothers; for filling Cain with his spirit he made him a fratricide.'



This can't be right, there are Jews in the Bible that dye their clothes aren't there?

 

[a_ntv]

Irenaeus calls the Cherubim the Son and the Spirit.

In fact the angels were, in the semitic way of thinking, a way of describe the expresions of the power of God.
(anyway in the OP Ireneaus text, as OrthodoxyUSA pointed out, the cherubin and seraphins are the powers, not directly the Son and the Holy Spirit)

Anso in the Roman Liturgy (and in the coptic one) there is still a 'Holy Angel' as reference to the Holy Spirit.

This original semitic way of thinking disappeaed in the Church when the Greek way of thinking was adopted: the Greek were 'more rational' and named everOne with the correct name: so after the IV century the Son and the Holy Spirit had their well defined name and titles, and the angels indicated only the spiritual created beings.

No...he called them "powers", a type of Angel.

Angels
ArchAngels
Powers
Dominions
Thrones
etc etc

Col1:16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

It is interesting that St Paul, who list a hirarchy of angels, do not list the Archangels (Michel, Gabriel, Raffeal...) and the cherubims and seraphims, probably because in his though they were seen as expressions of GodOnly in the 5 century a Greek writer, the Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite wote a complete Celestial Hierarchy that was very used particulary in the Greek World

 

[Iollain]

oh i see what'ca mean.......wow

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hey could you give me the letter he wrote?
I cannot seem to find it in this…and when using the phrases, it doesn’t come up on search.


Irenaeus of Lyons
- Adversus haereses
- Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus

 

[Iollain]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm

it's all on this page here

 

[Iollain]

24. In process of time, that is to say, in the tenth generation after the Flood, Abraham appeared,67 seeking for the God who by the blessing of his ancestor was due and proper to him.68 And when, urged by the eagerness of his spirit, he went all about the world, searching where God is, and failed to find out; God took pity on him who alone was silently seeking Him; and He appeared unto Abraham, making Himself known by the Word, as by a beam of light.


.........Jesus talking to Abraham

 

[WarriorAngel]

I understand Iollain, I read the site you offered in the OP...but in his writings, what letter is it?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0134.htm

I am just not seeing it.

 

[Iollain]

well now.......i don't know

 

[Tonks]

New Advent doesn't contain all of his writings.

ETA: His two most famous are, of course, "Against Heresies" and "The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching" with the former being the most widely known.

ETA 2: for us Westerns to get a better sense of the East I also enjoy Monachos.net which is a good compliation of many of the freely available Patristic works that we rarely see.

 

[WarriorAngel]

New Advent doesn't contain all of his writings.

ETA: His two most famous are, of course, "Against Heresies" and "The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching" with the former being the most widely known.

Thanks.

 

[Iollain]

How did he learn all this stuff?

 

[Tonks]

How did he learn all this stuff?

Irenaeus? He was a priest of the church at Lyon and was taught by Polycarp who himself was taught by St. John the Evangelist.

Irenaeus is also the first of the ECF to write that the four canonical Gospels were divinely inspired.

 

[Iollain]

Irenaeus? He was a priest of the church at Lyon and was taught by Polycarp who himself was taught by St. John the Evangelist.

Irenaeus is also the first of the ECF to write that the four canonical Gospels were divinely inspired.

thanks, have to read Polycarp next

 

[Iollain]

40. Thus then the Word of God in all things hath the pre-eminence;112 for that He is true man and Wonderful Counsellor and Mighty God;113 calling men anew to fellowship with God, that by fellowship with Him we may partake of incorruption. So then He who was proclaimed by the law through Moses, and by the prophets of the Most High and Almighty God, as Son of the Father of all; He from whom all things are, He who spake with Moses----He came into Judaea, generated from God by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, even of her who was of the seed of David and of Abraham, Jesus the Anointed of God, |106 showing Himself to be the One who was proclaimed beforehand by the prophets.



.....looks like it was no secret that Jesus was God back then either.