In Arminianism/Non-Calvinism, why did Jesus die for hellbound people?

[Skala]

In all forms of non-Calvinism, such as Arminianism and the other synergistic views on these boards, why did Jesus die for people He knew would end up in hell?

Please don't respond until you read and understand my entire argument.

1) Before God created the world, God, knowing the future, knew that if he created "Bob", Bob would reject Christ and end up in hell.

2) God could have simply chosen to not create Bob, thus sparing Bob from his fate.

3) Nevertheless, God willingly created Bob (and all other unbelievers), knowing full well that Bob will ultimately reject Christ and end up in hell.

God, knowing the future, knew who would believe, and who wouldn't' believe, if He created the human race. Why didn't God simply choose to only create those people He knew would willingly believe? He could have had a 100% saved and redeemed human race. Nobody would be in hell.

Why didn't God do this? Doesn't he want everyone to be saved? Being God, and having the ability to see the future, and choose who to create and who not to create, He could have easily given Himself what He wants. He could have easily created a human race where everyone (willingly) believed and cooperated with him, thus having an entire race of saved people, and nobody to go to hell.

Heck, he could have simply never allowed the snake to speak to Eve to begin with, he could have prevented the entire fall.

Heck, God can stop sin any time He wants. He has the power to do so. He could simply prevent every single human being from sinning, thus avoiding hell.

Why did Jesus die for those people that He knew, before he created them, would end up in hell?

What was he trying to accomplish?

What did his death do for those hellbound people that He, himself, created, knowing they would go to hell?

Was he pretending to try to save them, even though He, Himself, is the one that created them, knowing they were hellbound, thus effectively sealing their fate?

These are genuine questions Arminians and non-Calvinists can't answer.

Surely we all, here, agree that God has infinite power, and knowledge, especially of the future. Surely nobody here is an open theist (denying that God knows the future)

How can Arminians and non-Calvinists say with a straight face the following two, simultaneously:

1) God knows the future and willingly created people he knew would end up in hell
2) God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

Why did Jesus die for these people? Was he pretending to try to save them? Was he not pretending but actually trying to save them? Wait, what? He was actually trying to save people that He, Himself created, with perfect knowledge they would go to hell? He is the one that could have simply chosen to not create them in the first place, thus sparing them from the fate!

If your response is along the lines of: "Well, he wanted to give everyone a chance!" then you don't understand my argument, nor does it seem like you believe in God's omniscience (knowing the future)

If your response is along the lines of: "Well, he wanted to demonstrate his love to them." What? God creates people he knows will go to hell because he loves them?

The only possible consistent and honest and logical response synergists/Armininians/non-Calvinists could possibly say is either 1) God created people for hell on purpose or 2) God doesn't know the future


Which is it?

If you give any other response, I feel like you are avoiding the issue of God willingly creating people that he Knows will end up in hell, thus sealing their fate.

 

[bling]

In all forms of non-Calvinism, such as Arminianism and the other synergistic views on these boards, why did Jesus die for people He knew would end up in hell?

Please don't respond until you read and understand my entire argument.

1) Before God created the world, God, knowing the future, knew that if he created "Bob", Bob would reject Christ and end up in hell.

2) God could have simply chosen to not create Bob, thus sparing Bob from his fate.

3) Nevertheless, God willingly created Bob (and all other unbelievers), knowing full well that Bob will ultimately reject Christ and end up in hell.

God, knowing the future, knew who would believe, and who wouldn't' believe, if He created the human race. Why didn't God simply choose to only create those people He knew would willingly believe? He could have had a 100% saved and redeemed human race. Nobody would be in hell.

Why didn't God do this? Doesn't he want everyone to be saved? Being God, and having the ability to see the future, and choose who to create and who not to create, He could have easily given Himself what He wants. He could have easily created a human race where everyone (willingly) believed and cooperated with him, thus having an entire race of saved people, and nobody to go to hell.

Heck, he could have simply never allowed the snake to speak to Eve to begin with, he could have prevented the entire fall.

Heck, God can stop sin any time He wants. He has the power to do so. He could simply prevent every single human being from sinning, thus avoiding hell.

Why did Jesus die for those people that He knew, before he created them, would end up in hell?

What was he trying to accomplish?

What did his death do for those hellbound people that He, himself, created, knowing they would go to hell?

Was he pretending to try to save them, even though He, Himself, is the one that created them, knowing they were hellbound, thus effectively sealing their fate?

These are genuine questions Arminians and non-Calvinists can't answer.

Surely we all, here, agree that God has infinite power, and knowledge, especially of the future. Surely nobody here is an open theist (denying that God knows the future)

How can Arminians and non-Calvinists say with a straight face the following two, simultaneously:

1) God knows the future and willingly created people he knew would end up in hell
2) God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

Why did Jesus die for these people? Was he pretending to try to save them? Was he not pretending but actually trying to save them? Wait, what? He was actually trying to save people that He, Himself created, with perfect knowledge they would go to hell? He is the one that could have simply chosen to not create them in the first place, thus sparing them from the fate!

If your response is along the lines of: "Well, he wanted to give everyone a chance!" then you don't understand my argument, nor does it seem like you believe in God's omniscience (knowing the future)

If your response is along the lines of: "Well, he wanted to demonstrate his love to them." What? God creates people he knows will go to hell because he loves them?

The only possible consistent and honest and logical response synergists/Armininians/non-Calvinists could possibly say is either 1) God created people for hell on purpose or 2) God doesn't know the future


Which is it?

If you give any other response, I feel like you are avoiding the issue of God willingly creating people that he Knows will end up in hell, thus sealing their fate.

You assume God is held to our time frame and so our “future” is also God’s “future”.

Experimentally we have shown time to be relative, so how relative is time for God?

The future to God is like our history for us. We know the free will choices we made yesterday and cannot change them, but because we know those choices, does not mean they were not free will choices.

The God of our future knows all our free will choices, since it is history to Him, but that God of the future is the same God at creation, so the God at creation knows all our free will choices in our future.

Simple put: You are not guilty of refusing the offer if the offer was not truly made.

The reason God/Christ “knows” which people end up in hell is because those people were (in the future God knows about) offered God’s Love in the form of atonement and forgiveness, yet refused. If God did not know historically they did refuses, God would not know they were hell bound.

In other words: If God does not and will not produce a particular person, than God does not know what that particular nonperson would do, since all persons have free will to make a choice. God has perfect knowledge of all human free will choices.

 

[sdowney717]

You assume God is held to our time frame and so our “future” is also God’s “future”.

Experimentally we have shown time to be relative, so how relative is time for God?

The future to God is like our history for us. We know the free will choices we made yesterday and cannot change them, but because we know those choices, does not mean they were not free will choices.

The God of our future knows all our free will choices, since it is history to Him, but that God of the future is the same God at creation, so the God at creation knows all our free will choices in our future.

Simple put: You are not guilty of refusing the offer if the offer was not truly made.

The reason God/Christ “knows” which people end up in hell is because those people were (in the future God knows about) offered God’s Love in the form of atonement and forgiveness, yet refused. If God did not know historically they did refuses, God would not know they were hell bound.

In other words: If God does not and will not produce a particular person, than God does not know what that particular nonperson would do, since all persons have free will to make a choice. God has perfect knowledge of all human free will choices.

Your just making things up contrary to scripture.
like this statement, nowhere to be found in the bible, so being just your opinion, it is as worthless as my opinion would be if I speculated about these things.

The reason God/Christ “knows” which people end up in hell is because those people were (in the future God knows about) offered God’s Love in the form of atonement and forgiveness, yet refused.

Your opinion is God offers in the future salvation to all people, yet they refuse that. However many people die never hearing the gospel. Some kind of alternate reality going on in your mind.

 

[bling]

Your just making things up contrary to scripture.
like this statement, nowhere to be found in the bible, so being just your opinion, it is as worthless as my opinion would be if I speculated about these things.

Just because scripture does not state the Theory of Relativity, does not mean the theory is false?
Scripture just tells us: “God knows” but does not tell us how He knows, and we also know the scripture presents man as be able to make at least some free will choices, so it is up to us to consider ways this could be possible.
I am just showing how both these concepts can coexist and a contrast to
the OP which tries to show how God’s knowledge of the future and a Love for everyone could not coexist.

Your opinion is God offers in the future salvation to all people, yet they refuse that. However many people die never hearing the gospel. Some kind of alternate reality going on in your mind.

That is a different question: “How can God be both fair/just and some people never have the opportunity to hear the gospel”?

Scripture talks about those refusing the gospel and really does not address those that never heard the gospel. We do have a few words:

Ro. 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The person’s conscience does not spell out Jesus the person, but does point him toward a Loving Creator which is also a description of Jesus. God judges the secrets in man’s heart.

God is loving, just and fair and we are all children of God, so he will do what is fair and just for us.

 

[Skala]

Bump.

Not touching this one with a 10 foot pole, eh guys?

 

[abacabb3]

Let me bite. WHy not? Why can't Jesus waste some grace that never gets taken advantage of? What difference does it make?

 

[sdowney717]

Let me bite. WHy not? Why can't Jesus waste some grace that never gets taken advantage of? What difference does it make?

What is grace. how to define it?
I think of grace as unmerited favor from God which results in your being saved.
By grace are you saved.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So dont think any grace gets wasted, because grace is what saves us.

Grace that does not save, well, is such a thing possible?
What is the purpose of grace?

IS grace different from kindness?

(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
a divinely given talent or blessing.
plural noun: graces
"the graces of the Holy Spirit"
the condition or fact of being favored by someone.
"he fell from grace because of drug use at the Olympics"
synonyms: favor, approval, approbation, acceptance, esteem, regard, respect; More
antonyms: disfavor

 

[FreeGrace2]

The only possible consistent and honest and logical response synergists/Armininians/non-Calvinists could possibly say is either 1) God created people for hell on purpose or 2) God doesn't know the future


Which is it?

Neither. #1 belongs to Calvinism. #2 belongs to open theism. Both are wrong.

The only consistent, honest, and logical response for why God created humans who He knows will reject Him is because God created the human race to demonstrate to His angels, both elect and fallen, His perfect mercy and justice.

1 Peter 1:10
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
1 Peter 1:11
seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

The "things" that angels "long to look into" refers back to v.10 and "this salvation". God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice.

If you give any other response, I feel like you are avoiding the issue of God willingly creating people that he Knows will end up in hell, thus sealing their fate.

Anyone is free to feel anything they want to feel, but my answer directly ANSWERS the OP of WHY God created the human race, fully knowing that some will reject Him and end up in hell.

God demonstrated His love for mankind by sacrificing His Son for all of them. But He demonstrates mercy and justice to His angels regarding HOW individuals respond or react to His promise.

Those who reject have no excuse. In RT, those who end up in hell were simply not chosen for heaven. Though none of the reformed will face the fact that their theology actually provides an excuse for the un-chosen, it does nonetheless.

 

[Hammster]

Neither. #1 belongs to Calvinism. #2 belongs to open theism. Both are wrong.

The only consistent, honest, and logical response for why God created humans who He knows will reject Him is because God created the human race to demonstrate to His angels, both elect and fallen, His perfect mercy and justice.

1 Peter 1:10
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
1 Peter 1:11
seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

The "things" that angels "long to look into" refers back to v.10 and "this salvation". God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice.


Anyone is free to feel anything they want to feel, but my answer directly ANSWERS the OP of WHY God created the human race, fully knowing that some will reject Him and end up in hell.

God demonstrated His love for mankind by sacrificing His Son for all of them. But He demonstrates mercy and justice to His angels regarding HOW individuals respond or react to His promise.

Those who reject have no excuse. In RT, those who end up in hell were simply not chosen for heaven. Though none of the reformed will face the fact that their theology actually provides an excuse for the un-chosen, it does nonetheless.

So in free gracism, men are pawns that God uses to educate angels.

 

[abacabb3]

So in free gracism, men are pawns that God uses to educate angels.

The Saints will judge the world and the angels...

 

[FreeGrace2]

So in free gracism, men are pawns that God uses to educate angels.

No, why make up nonsense? I quoted 1 Pet 1:12, but apparently it meant nothing?

The Bible (which is free grace theology) teaches that man has no excuse for ending up in hell.

In reformed theology, those who end up in hell weren't chosen for heaven. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with sin, since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" per Rom 3:23, so please don't try to bring sin into the discussion. The centerpiece of RT is election, that God unilaterally and unconditionally chose certain people for heaven, all for no apparent reason at all.

So God created many FOR hell. What's so great about that view? It can't be defended from Scripture, so why should anyone believe it?

 

[Hammster]

No, why make up nonsense? I quoted 1 Pet 1:12, but apparently it meant nothing?

The Bible (which is free grace theology) teaches that man has no excuse for ending up in hell.

In reformed theology, those who end up in hell weren't chosen for heaven. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with sin, since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" per Rom 3:23, so please don't try to bring sin into the discussion. The centerpiece of RT is election, that God unilaterally and unconditionally chose certain people for heaven, all for no apparent reason at all.

So God created many FOR hell. What's so great about that view? It can't be defended from Scripture, so why should anyone believe it?

You said "God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice."

So mankind was created for angels to show them things about Himself, including justice and wrath (hell). So mankind was created for hell to show angels justice and wrath.

 

[Skala]

So in free gracism, men are pawns that God uses to educate angels.

Seems like the poster basically argued that God created people to go to hell on purpose (he said it was to display his attributes - including justice? - to the angels)

Yet in the same breath, when asked which one describes his view, he said "Neither. #1 belongs to Calvinism". Even though "#1" is "God created people to go to hell" which is what he just argued for!

Classic!

 

[sdowney717]

You said "God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice."

So mankind was created for angels to show them things about Himself, including justice and wrath (hell). So mankind was created for hell to show angels justice and wrath.

And the exact opposite is what Jesus says Hell was created for.

Matt 25

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hell made for fallen angles, not man ans freegrace says.

Actually what happens first? Satan and his angels fall, then through the working of Satan tempting man, man falls.
Hell was created not for man. The entire idea is a perversity of the truth to say God creates hell for men to show angels something about Himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said "God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice."

So mankind was created for angels to show them things about Himself, including justice and wrath (hell). So mankind was created for hell to show angels justice and wrath.

That's right. That's my view. Can that view be refuted from Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Seems like the poster basically argued that God created people to go to hell on purpose (he said it was to display his attributes - including justice? - to the angels)

Totally wrong again. Not "on purpose", as RT has it. Those who go to hell have no excuse for going there. God made provisions for everyone to avoid it. But you seemed to ignore that part.

Yet in the same breath, when asked which one describes his view, he said "Neither. #1 belongs to Calvinism". Even though "#1" is "God created people to go to hell" which is what he just argued for!

I didn't, and you totally misunderstood my post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And the exact opposite is what Jesus says Hell was created for.

Matt 25
Hell made for fallen angles, not man ans freegrace says.[/QUOTE]
I never said that hell was created for mankind. Please quit putting false words in my mouth. We all know where unbelievers will go; the lake of fire.

Actually what happens first? Satan and his angels fall, then through the working of Satan tempting man, man falls.
Hell was created not for man. The entire idea is a perversity of the truth to say God creates hell for men to show angels something about Himself.

This is what I posted:
Those who reject have no excuse. In RT, those who end up in hell were simply not chosen for heaven. Though none of the reformed will face the fact that their theology actually provides an excuse for the un-chosen, it does nonetheless.
You post has falsely accused me of what I never said.

 

[Hammster]

That's right. That's my view. Can that view be refuted from Scripture?

Well, it is from scripture. That doesn't make it scriptural

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-things into which angels long to look. (1 Peter 1:12 NASB)

It says that the angels long to look into these things. It doesn't say that man was created to be sent to hell so angels can know about God's wrath.

 

[bling]

Bump.

Not touching this one with a 10 foot pole, eh guys?

I gave the answer in post 2, so it is you that seems to be not wanting to touch with a 10 ft pole?

 

[Skala]

You said "God created mankind to demonstrate to angels His various attributes, especially His mercy and justice."

So mankind was created for angels to show them things about Himself, including justice and wrath (hell). So mankind was created for hell to show angels justice and wrath.

That's right. That's my view.

Seems like the poster basically argued that God created people to go to hell on purpose (he said it was to display his attributes - including justice? - to the angels)

Totally wrong again.