If sabbath was a creation ordinance...........

[from scratch]

The problem you point out here is perfectly valid, consistent with the singular nature of God's rest and the singular seventh day of the creation account that was blessed in the singular. Bob doesn't recognize the problem he encounters, which is why his response to this looks like total bewilderment and cognitive meltdown.

Between you, me and the fence post wouldn't that be impossible?

 

[from scratch]

Originally Posted by VictorC

The sabbath isn't mentioned prior to the exodus from Egyptian bondage, .
​

until you notice the Bible details in this post -

Originally Posted by BobRyan

God says it is in Gen 2:3.

When God summarizes Gen 1-2:3 in Ex 20:11 He specifically says it is in Gen 2:3.

We need to believe "God" -- as it turns out.

And Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind".

So obvious - even many Sunday Sources get this Bible point - of the Sabbath starting in Eden.



Oh Good -- Bible quotes instead of tired old "man made tradition" about the Commandments of God supposedly being dead.

Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11 "11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy." That is what God said He did in Gen 2:3.

Gen 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

"And Sanctified it" -- "And made it Holy" -- the same word.


​

No wonder even Sunday Sources - admit to the Sabbath of Genesis 2:1-3 kept by the saints from Eden onward in the OT.



Hint: Deut 5 is not the great "edit/delete/rewrite" that some of those who oppose God's Ten Commandments have at first imagined to themselves.

Notice Deut taking place 40 years later and not at all written in stone starts off with this preface.

Deut 4
12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Written where? -- "on two tablets of stone" -- still upheld by Moses as such in Deuteronomy 4 and 5. (No imagining wild fictions about contradictions).

Then in Deut 5 again Moses points them BACK to the "two tables of stone" and the words that were spoken then.

22 These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

In Deut 5:12 - Moses said that the 4th commandment is specifically supposed to be kept AS it was given AT Sinai!


12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.

In Deut 5 Moses ADDs reasons for Israel to keep the Sabbath - he does not subtract from them.

And Moses reminds them that ALL of the MORAL law is prefaced with God's work of deliverance. Not "just the 4th commandment"


6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

Deuteronomy is not the friend of the false doctrine about being at war with God's TEN Commandments

in Christ,

Bob

You probably should read your post and do some edit work.

 

[from scratch]

The Sabbath in Genesis isn't a cyclical weekly version God only DID (not kept) it once and as far as we can see he hasn't been creating another 6 days to need to "keep" another Sabbath.

 

[from scratch]

Until you read Gen 2:1-3 where it is the "seventh day" that is made holy and blessed - just as in Ex 20:11. Same language. Same facts. Same God. Same event -

Thus even before Ex 20 - in Ex 16 the weekly Sabbath is in force.

And as even the Sunday Sources admit - the Sabbath as God gave it in eden - the seventh day - kept by the saints all through the OT - was the Seventh day of the week - not week-day-1.

in Christ,

Bob

I'll say your certainly dedicated to your agenda in the face of the truth.

 

[VictorC]

Between you, me and the fence post wouldn't that be impossible?

Let's just say it would leave the modified-Sabbatarian with a very short lifespan, and at variance to the commandment conveyed by the Apostle Paul:
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

 

[BobRyan]

It isn't 'fiction' that you're still opposed to the testimony presented in the Ten Commandments. .

Another factless accusation?

Try this quote something where I actually say I am opposed to the Ten Commandments when you want to make so wild claims - so we can take your accusation more seriously.

Otherwise who knows where you get those wild ideas??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

Another factless accusation?

Try this quote something where I actually say I am opposed to the Ten Commandments when you want to make so wild claims - so we can take your accusation more seriously.

Otherwise who knows where you get those wild ideas??

in Christ,

Bob

You didn't address the content of my post. It doesn't even seem possible for you to quote the pertinent content of reminders to this.

 

[BobRyan]

Which doesn't mention Deuteronomy 5:15 at all. .

I notice you have now abandoned your Deut 5 argument. Why not respond to the Deut 5 post that was given?

It is easier to take your idea seriously if you show interest in it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

I notice you have now abandoned your Deut 5 argument. Why not respond to the Deut 5 post that was given?

How many times does someone need to point out that you haven't responded to the content of the post you're in variance with?

 

[BobRyan]

Wha-huh???

Respond to the Deut 5 post or choose to be interested in something - anything,

 

[VictorC]

Wha-huh???

Respond to the Deut 5 post or choose to be interested in something - anything,

I'm patiently waiting for you to address the content of my post.

 

[Cribstyl]

(Genesis 17:12) He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,

(Colossians 2:16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Thanks for these solid biblical facts.............. Just like the sabbath, circumcision originated with one group, Abraham's decendants (not to the world). They were suppose to command their slaves to keep it because God did not give it through any other people before it's written in the bible.

Colossions 2 make it clear that foods, meats or sabbaths was of the Jews. It is no longer a test or any kind of standard for anyone to judge Christian worship.

 

[Cribstyl]

..........................................
Also notice that in the Gen 1-2:3 God works six days and rests - Adam is made on day 6. and then rests on day 7. In Ex 20:8-11 man is to follow the example and Ex 20:11 say the "Reason" for that is based on Gen 2:1-3 "alone".

So it is not surprising that the same word for blessed and sanctified is used in both Gen 2:3 and in Ex 20:11 for that same event in time.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you're making a claim that scriptures does not. You have not, cannot, and will not explained that Adam rested on the seventh day of creation.
Explain why Adam did not worked six days before he rested according to the commandment?

When God first gave the Sabbath it was not on the sixth day (day before Sabbath). The scripture showed that the people worked six days and then rested on the seventh day.

Bob, your claims in this thread are not based on the scriptures. Your socalled facts are being challenged.

 

[from scratch]

Bob, you're making a claim that scriptures does not. You have not, cannot and will not, explained that Adam rested on the seventh day of creation.
Explain why Adam did not worked six days before he rested?

When God first gave the Sabbath it was not on the sixth day (day before Sabbath). The scripture showed that the people worked six days and then rested on the seventh day.

Bob, your claims in this thread are not based on the scriptures. Your facts are bein challenged.

What facts? He hasn't presented one yet.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Genesis 2: The Seventh Day, God Rests: The Creation of Man and Woman:

20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam[g] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

We see Adam asleep while Eve is being created and likely rose on the 8th day; associating new birth with the 8th day.

21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Luke: The Birth of Jesus Christ: Jesus Presented at the Temple
22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord&#8221 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”

As with the new birth of Eve potentially on the 8th day, we see Jesus Christ, circumcised according to the Law of Moses, on the 8th day following his birth.

This is why Christian congregations have traditionally used a baptismal font that's an octogonal shape. Reminding us that our baptismal birth in Jesus Christ under the Gospel, by the 8th day, brings with it the very same Holy Spirit given to the Jews in their "circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God” under the Law (Romans 2:28-29).

 

[from scratch]

Genesis 2: The Seventh Day, God Rests: The Creation of Man and Woman:

20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam[g] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

We see Adam asleep while Eve is being created and likely rose on the 8th day; associating new birth with the 8th day.

21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Luke: The Birth of Jesus Christ: Jesus Presented at the Temple
22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”

As with the new birth of Eve potentially on the 8th day, we see Jesus Christ, circumcised according to the Law of Moses, on the 8th day following his birth.

This is why Christian congregations have traditionally used a baptismal font that's an octogonal shape. Reminding us that our baptismal birth in Jesus Christ under the Gospel, by the 8th day, brings with it the very same Holy Spirit given to the Jews in their "circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God” under the Law (Romans 2:28-29).

Interesting. I've never seen one. All the dedicated ones I've seen are rectangles with the exception of the one I saw in a new Mormon worship structure.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Interesting. I've never seen one. All the dedicated ones I've seen are rectangles with the exception of the one I saw in a new Mormon worship structure.

web search: Octagon Baptismal Font Item #38533 (Roman-Catholic)
web search: Baptismal Font at St Mark Lutheran Church
web search: Baptismal Font | Saint Peter's Anglican Church
web search: If Pulpits Could Talk (Presbyterian)

 

[Cribstyl]

What facts? He hasn't presented one yet.

I stand corrected.

 

[LarryP2]

Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians conjure up that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is willfully dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the ten commandments as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks bizarre and foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The argument for keeping just one pet commandment out of the 613 of the Mosaic Law simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a Salvation by Works theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the entirety of the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Fortunately for Christians, even Christians who keep the Sabbath aren't even CLOSE to meeting that burden.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and have some integrity, you need to go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is mandatory, including circumcision. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense against God, an observant Jew is required the impose of the Death Penalty. Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple.

 

[maco]

Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians conjure up that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is willfully dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the ten commandments as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks bizarre and foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The argument for keeping just one pet commandment out of the 613 of the Mosaic Law simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a Salvation by Works theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the entirety of the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Fortunately for Christians, even Christians who keep the Sabbath aren't even CLOSE to meeting that burden.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and have some integrity, you need to go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is mandatory, including circumcision. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense against God, an observant Jew is required the impose of the Death Penalty. Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple.

Man counts 613, God counts 10 and writes them with His own finger. The interesting thing is that the Ten Commandments are the only part of the Bible written with God's own finger.