If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

[Mark Quayle]

Did I have a choice or was that choice dictated by God?

Both

 

[Mark Quayle]

In order for us to have free will, God has to have a permissive will.


Illogical. The elect cannot perish—they cannot be condemned to hell.
Before the foundation of the world, God already knew which people would inherit eternal life because he knew which people would persevere until the end of their lives in obedience to his commandments. It is these people who are his elect.


I agree that God will work for good according to his purpose, regardless of the circumstances.

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God absolutely does not intend that there be evil. God does permit evil. God is perfect good. He cannot intend evil.

Psalm 136:1 O give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.”

Show me the doctrine of God merely permitting that there be evil, in scripture. Notice that if God knew it would come but created anyway, he intended it to come, and, rather obviously, for his own purposes. But, yes, I agree, he does detest it.

 

[John Mullally]

Don't be too sure of yourself.

"And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin."

Young's Literal Translation

In such cases I prefer the Amplified Bible at the risk of being overly wordy and not flowing well, it is the most accurate.

​

They built the high places [for worship] of Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom (son of Hinnom) to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to [worship and honor] Molech—which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this repulsive thing, to cause Judah to sin.​

​

You assert the following:

1. God hates sin.
2. God intends everything that happens - which includes sin.

And yet we see God's disappointment with man throughout the OT. Is God play acting? How does it make sense for God to be disappointed that He is getting from man what He intended?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Both

No, it doesn’t work that way. Either God dictated my choice or I dictated my choice. You can’t have both me and God dictating my choice. This a non-answer where you’re basically refusing to give a definitive answer because you know that any answer you give is going to contradict what you’ve said in the discussion. You can’t say God made the decision because then that makes God responsible for my actions and you can’t say I made the decision because that means I had the free will to choose, so your not giving any answers to avoid confronting the dilemma you’ve created.

 

[Jan001]

Show me the doctrine of God merely permitting that there be evil, in scripture. Notice that if God knew it would come but created anyway, he intended it to come, and, rather obviously, for his own purposes. But, yes, I agree, he does detest it.

God is good. Because he is good, he cannot intend evil. Evil is the opposite of good. God cannot be both good and evil.

 

[Jan001]

Show me the doctrine of God merely permitting that there be evil, in scripture.

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.

This is not literal. This was a semitic way of speaking. The Israelites explain God's actions according to how they themselves act.

God cannot do evil. He is good. God punishes evildoers, because he is good and he hates sin. God forgives evil-doers because he is merciful. Our God is both a merciful and just God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.

This is not literal. This was a semitic way of speaking. The Israelites explain God's actions according to how they themselves act.

God cannot do evil. He is good. God punishes evildoers, because he is good and he hates sin. God forgives evil-doers because he is merciful. Our God is both a merciful and just God.

Indeed, this is entirely correct. God cannot engage in evil by His very nature, since He is entirely good, and does not make evil or do evil, for by definition, evil is the rejection of God.

Furthermore, God does not repent; the word “repent,” metanoia, in Greek, as we find it in the New Testament (which is what is relevant) literally means “to change ones mind” and God is unchanging, as is clearly stated in both the Old and the New Testament (and indeed, the Deity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is also confirmed when he is declared by the Apostle to be “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow,” for immutability is a fundamental quality of the divine nature.

The principle of divine immutability is one of the universally accepted aspects of God recognized in Christian theology. Now some might object, arguing it violates the principle of omnipotence, but what we are saying is not that it would be impossible for God to change, but rather, that God does not change, for God is perfect, and what is more, He has declared himself unchanging. However it is is in principle impossible for God to do evil, since all acts of God are good by definition, and thus the phrase is, as @Jan001 very correctly put it, a typically Semitic expression rather than a literal statement about the nature of God

 

[The Liturgist]

God is good. Because he is good, he cannot intend evil. Evil is the opposite of good. God cannot be both good and evil.

Indeed this is correct.

 

[The Liturgist]

Show me the doctrine of God merely permitting that there be evil, in scripture. Notice that if God knew it would come but created anyway, he intended it to come, and, rather obviously, for his own purposes. But, yes, I agree, he does detest it.

I hate to say it Mark but it is because of statements such as this, which are utterly needless and actually contradict much of Calvinist and Reformed theology, that people have a negative opinion of Calvinist and Reformed theology. You did not need, by any stretch of the imagination, to invoke the idea that God engages in evil acts, which is contradicted by other scripture, and which is incompatible with the idea of His perfection, since evil is inherently imperfect and sinful, and God cannot sin, since sin by its nature is opposition to God, but rather could simply have relied on the principle of God’s perfect justice.

Indeed Karl Barth, the most erudite Reformed theologian, and the most thorough practitioner of systematic theology, denies that God is the author of defects.

 

[Jan001]

Indeed, this is entirely correct. God cannot engage in evil by His very nature, since He is entirely good, and does not make evil or do evil, for by definition, evil is the rejection of God.

Furthermore, God does not repent; the word “repent,” metanoia, in Greek, as we find it in the New Testament (which is what is relevant) literally means “to change ones mind” and God is unchanging, as is clearly stated in both the Old and the New Testament (and indeed, the Deity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is also confirmed when he is declared by the Apostle to be “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow,” for immutability is a fundamental quality of the divine nature.

The principle of divine immutability is one of the universally accepted aspects of God recognized in Christian theology. Now some might object, arguing it violates the principle of omnipotence, but what we are saying is not that it would be impossible for God to change, but rather, that God does not change, for God is perfect, and what is more, He has declared himself unchanging. However it is is in principle impossible for God to do evil, since all acts of God are good by definition, and thus the phrase is, as @Jan001 very correctly put it, a typically Semitic expression rather than a literal statement about the nature of God

You state this much better than I did.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In such cases I prefer the Amplified Bible at the risk of being overly wordy and not flowing well, it is the most accurate.

​

They built the high places [for worship] of Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom (son of Hinnom) to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to [worship and honor] Molech—which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this repulsive thing, to cause Judah to sin.​

​

You assert the following:

1. God hates sin.
2. God intends everything that happens - which includes sin.

And yet we see God's disappointment with man throughout the OT. Is God play acting? How does it make sense for God to be disappointed that He is getting from man what He intended?

How does it make sense that God, who knows everything and in whom all things consists and exist, could not have known what was going to happen when he created it? It is anthropomorphizing to call it disappointment. God is not like us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, it doesn’t work that way. Either God dictated my choice or I dictated my choice. You can’t have both me and God dictating my choice. This a non-answer where you’re basically refusing to give a definitive answer because you know that any answer you give is going to contradict what you’ve said in the discussion. You can’t say God made the decision because then that makes God responsible for my actions and you can’t say I made the decision because that means I had the free will to choose, so your not giving any answers to avoid confronting the dilemma you’ve created.

I see it's time to shut down the back-and-forth again.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is good. Because he is good, he cannot intend evil. Evil is the opposite of good. God cannot be both good and evil.

Are you saying that intending evil for a time for a good reason is not good? He intended Christ to be sacrificed on our behalf.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge...

 

[Mark Quayle]

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.

This is not literal. This was a semitic way of speaking. The Israelites explain God's actions according to how they themselves act.

God cannot do evil. He is good. God punishes evildoers, because he is good and he hates sin. God forgives evil-doers because he is merciful. Our God is both a merciful and just God.

Actually, (and not to make your point nor mine), "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" isn't just semitic, but it is anthropomorphizing. We pretty much can't help describing him according to our way of thinking. And God does it often in Scripture so we can understand what is going on, to some degree.

Also, the word, "evil", there, and in some other places, does not mean sin, but disaster, hardship, suffering and such. That is, it isn't talking about moral evil.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I hate to say it Mark but it is because of statements such as this, which are utterly needless and actually contradict much of Calvinist and Reformed theology, that people have a negative opinion of Calvinist and Reformed theology. You did not need, by any stretch of the imagination, to invoke the idea that God engages in evil acts, which is contradicted by other scripture, and which is incompatible with the idea of His perfection, since evil is inherently imperfect and sinful, and God cannot sin, since sin by its nature is opposition to God, but rather could simply have relied on the principle of God’s perfect justice.

Indeed Karl Barth, the most erudite Reformed theologian, and the most thorough practitioner of systematic theology, denies that God is the author of defects.

Thank you. Yes, I have slowly become aware that many Reformed and Calvinists don't take certain things as far as I do. Nevertheless, (as you see in my profile) I don't claim to be Calvinist, nor Reformed, but by reputation. I am fully monergist, though.

I don't see how what I say there implies that God engages in evil acts, by which "evil" I take you to mean, moral evil —not disaster and such. And certainly I don't think that God "engages in" moral evil in the sense that HE is the one who does the acts. Sin is always the doing of the sinner, yet I can't get away from the simple logic that if God created, knowing what would result, he intended it to result. In fact —even without that particular line of logic— if God is first cause, he intended for every detail of fact to result. Nothing happens by accident, nor by mere chance.

And there is scripture that demonstrates that he intended evil acts and events to come about, and that, always, for a good reason. The two that come to mind first, for me, are Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." and, Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

 

[Jan001]

Are you saying that intending evil for a time for a good reason is not good? He intended Christ to be sacrificed on our behalf.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge...

How is Christ' offering of himself as atonement for our sins an evil thing?

John 10:17-18 Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order that I may take it back again. No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it back again. This command I received from my Father.”

God knew Adam would sin, so God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) provided a way to redeem mankind.


Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men. AMP

 

[Jan001]

Actually, (and not to make your point nor mine), "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" isn't just semitic, but it is anthropomorphizing. We pretty much can't help describing him according to our way of thinking. And God does it often in Scripture so we can understand what is going on, to some degree.

Also, the word, "evil", there, and in some other places, does not mean sin, but disaster, hardship, suffering and such. That is, it isn't talking about moral evil.

I agree with you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How is Christ' offering of himself as atonement for our sins an evil thing?

Was evil done to Christ? THAT is what I was referring to, (in case you didn't notice).

John 10:17-18 Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order that I may take it back again. No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it back again. This command I received from my Father.”

God knew Adam would sin, so God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) provided a way to redeem mankind.

I hope you understand that God's plan from the beginning was the redemption of those to whom he would show mercy. Sin is not news to God, nor a mistake on God's part, nor was it something that he was not aware before creating mankind, that it would happen. It was IN his plan, to make a people to become the Body of Christ. Sin is part of what it takes for our redemption.

Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men. AMP

 

[John Mullally]

How does it make sense that God, who knows everything and in whom all things consists and exist, could not have known what was going to happen when he created it? It is anthropomorphizing to call it disappointment. God is not like us.

God is not denying knowledge that it would happen. Rather, He is using emphatic language to show that He never “commanded” it, meaning that it never entered His mind that they “should do” this awful thing, even such as to “cause” Israel to do it. Thus God did not as you say, intend that abomination in Jeremiah 32:35.

 

[Jan001]

Was evil done to Christ? THAT is what I was referring to, (in case you didn't notice).

Of course, evil was done to Christ. Christ came to earth to be crucified in atonement for our sins.

I hope you understand that God's plan from the beginning was the redemption of those to whom he would show mercy. Sin is not news to God, nor a mistake on God's part, nor was it something that he was not aware before creating mankind, that it would happen. It was IN his plan, to make a people to become the Body of Christ. Sin is part of what it takes for our redemption.

I agree that without Adam's sin, there would have been no need for redemption. God desired and desires for all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, even Pharaoh and Judas. God knew what they were going to do before they did it, so his redemption plan encompassed these men's own free-will decisions.