If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

[BNR32FAN]

No the question is not whether there is an actual other option(s), but whether we choose. If we 'see' options, (not knowing which one is going to happen until we choose one) we can choose from among them.

No not if God is the one doing the choosing. If we have no free will and God dictates our choice and we absolutely cannot choose anything other than what He has dictated then we can’t make any choices because there’s no other option for us to choose from. Now you’re saying that there would be the illusion of a choice that we can’t actually choose from. If we can’t actually choose anything other than what God has dictated then there is no choice. It seems like you’re trying to hang on to the notion that we have a choice because you have to have some way for God to not be responsible for our sin. It can’t work both ways either He dictates our actions which makes Him responsible for them or we make our own choices which makes us responsible for our own actions. You can’t have it both ways because one directly contradicts the other. God’s dictation eliminates a choice and free will eliminates God’s dictation. It’s either one or the other it can’t be both.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1) Because if any of it was a result of his creating, it was ALL a result of his creating it, as there can be only one First Cause. Thus, it is all caused, which contradicts the notion of libertarian free will. (Note that I don't deny 'free will' in the sense that we do indeed choose.)

No foreknowledge it’s not the same thing as dictation. Knowing what will take place is not the same as causing everything to take place. If I could see in the future and foresaw everything my son was going to do it doesn’t mean that I caused him to do all of it because I chose to have a son. It only means I saw the choices he would make it doesn’t mean that I caused him to make those choices.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Love is of God. Not of us. We do so because it is so. We do not earn it, but it is done in us.

If that’s the case then John 15:8-10 is a useless message because it’s not up to us whether we choose to love someone or not. Jesus wouldn’t be telling His apostles to love one another if God is the one who dictates if and who we love.

”My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with what I was talking about. Your only mentioning God’s love towards us, not our love towards Him. I feel like your avoiding the discussion.

Actually, I was saying that our love towards him is a gift from him. It is not of our own making, just as we ourselves are not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No not if God is the one doing the choosing. If we have no free will and God dictates our choice and we absolutely cannot choose anything other than what He has dictated then we can’t make any choices because there’s no other option for us to choose from. Now you’re saying that there would be the illusion of a choice that we can’t actually choose from. If we can’t actually choose anything other than what God has dictated then there is no choice. It seems like you’re trying to hang on to the notion that we have a choice because you have to have some way for God to not be responsible for our sin. It can’t work both ways either He dictates our actions which makes Him responsible for them or we make our own choices which makes us responsible for our own actions. You can’t have it both ways because one directly contradicts the other. God’s dictation eliminates a choice and free will eliminates God’s dictation. It’s either one or the other it can’t be both.

If God chooses, it does not mean we don't. I did not say we have no free will, but that we do not have uncaused ('libertarian') free will. We choose from options shown us, but we always choose according to our inclinations, even if only for that moment.

This is getting real old, being the n-th time we have gone over this. You still insist on the need for two equally valid beings —God being no more real in and of himself, than us. We are nothing, we don't even exist, apart from him. Our very existence DEPENDS on him, as does all fact —therefore, how can our choices even BE, without him? Your sense of default fact is skewed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No foreknowledge it’s not the same thing as dictation. Knowing what will take place is not the same as causing everything to take place. If I could see in the future and foresaw everything my son was going to do it doesn’t mean that I caused him to do all of it because I chose to have a son. It only means I saw the choices he would make it doesn’t mean that I caused him to make those choices.

You are not God. Not first cause. There are myriad circumstances influencing your son's decisions that did not descend from you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If that’s the case then John 15:8-10 is a useless message because it’s not up to us whether we choose to love someone or not. Jesus wouldn’t be telling His apostles to love one another if God is the one who dictates if and who we love.

”My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Once again you resort to the narrative that my theology pretends that everything is automatic, if God causes it. I have insisted and insist again, that God usually uses means, such as reprimands, conviction, advice, enlightening, warning, encouraging etc etc etc, to accomplish what he will have us do. You want God to issue us policy, and to leave us alone to navigate it. But he works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Very intimate. By no means does he deny us choice. We can will to love, and when we do, we find ourselves thanking HIM for it, giving HIM the credit for it. Or did you think that choice was all your own?

 

[Jan001]

Our prayers change our circumstances, but it is in God's timing, not our own. Sometimes he requires us do things before he will grant what we desire.

2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Sometimes, he doesn't grant what we ask for, but he always grants what is best for the good of our souls.

 

[Jan001]

As always, if God knew (being omniscient) every detail of what would result of his creating, yet created anyway, God INTENDED every detail that would result of his creating.

It is true that God knew beforehand every detail that would result from his creation.

God's permissive will allowed every detail that would result from his creation.

However, God didn't intend for any person to sin and thereby be condemned to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Many people will choose condemnation for themselves by disobeying God's commandments.

Matthew 7:12-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

God allows evil, but he does not desire it or cause it.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;

 

[BNR32FAN]

If God chooses, it does not mean we don't. I did not say we have no free will, but that we do not have uncaused ('libertarian') free will. We choose from options shown us, but we always choose according to our inclinations, even if only for that moment.

This is getting real old, being the n-th time we have gone over this. You still insist on the need for two equally valid beings —God being no more real in and of himself, than us. We are nothing, we don't even exist, apart from him. Our very existence DEPENDS on him, as does all fact —therefore, how can our choices even BE, without him? Your sense of default fact is skewed.

None of this even matters. God is here so a hypothetical idea about what would happen if He wasn’t here is irrelevant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are not God. Not first cause. There are myriad circumstances influencing your son's decisions that did not descend from you.

ok I bought a banana cream pie yesterday could I have bought a coconut cream pie instead?

 

[Mark Quayle]

ok I bought a banana cream pie yesterday could I have bought a coconut cream pie instead?

Ha! Perhaps you should have!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is true that God knew beforehand every detail that would result from his creation.

God's permissive will allowed every detail that would result from his creation.

A man-made notion, 'permissive will'. Trying to excuse God.

However, God didn't intend for any person to sin and thereby be condemned to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Read the context. This is talking about the elect.

Many people will choose condemnation for themselves by disobeying God's commandments.

Matthew 7:12-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

God allows evil, but he does not desire it or cause it.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;

He does not delight in evil. He hates it. And he uses it for his purposes, then conquers it —puts it to death. You cannot prove logically (nor from Scripture) that he did not intend that there be evil.

 

[Mark Quayle]

None of this even matters. God is here so a hypothetical idea about what would happen if He wasn’t here is irrelevant.

Would that you could translate that statement to the notion of libertarian freewill.

 

[John Mullally]

He does not delight in evil. He hates it. And he uses it for his purposes, then conquers it —puts it to death. You cannot prove logically (nor from Scripture) that he did not intend that there be evil.

As always, if God knew (being omniscient) every detail of what would result of his creating, yet created anyway, God INTENDED every detail that would result of his creating.

Jeremiah describes evil that was committed which never entered God's mind and therefore God did not intend.

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jeremiah describes evil that was committed which never entered God's mind and therefore God did not intend.

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.​

Wrong again. Read it again, "...nor had it entered my mind THAT THEY SHOULD DO this abomination". Doesn't say that it never entered his mind that they would, nor that they could, but never entered his mind to command them to do such a thing. He's not talking about something that happened by chance, but about the horror of their disobedience.

 

[John Mullally]

Jeremiah describes evil that was committed which never entered God's mind and therefore God did not intend.

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.​

Wrong again. Read it again, "...nor had it entered my mind THAT THEY SHOULD DO this abomination". Doesn't say that it never entered his mind that they would, nor that they could, but never entered his mind to command them to do such a thing. He's not talking about something that happened by chance, but about the horror of their disobedience.

We can agree that the text says God did not command them to do this abomination. And yes, the horror.

You read it again - my point holds! It says that nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, which is very different from never entered his mind to command them to do such a thing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ha! Perhaps you should have!!

Did I have a choice or was that choice dictated by God?

 

[Jan001]

A man-made notion, 'permissive will'. Trying to excuse God.

In order for us to have free will, God has to have a permissive will.

RE: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Read the context. This is talking about the elect.

Illogical. The elect cannot perish—they cannot be condemned to hell.
Before the foundation of the world, God already knew which people would inherit eternal life because he knew which people would persevere until the end of their lives in obedience to his commandments. It is these people who are his elect.

He does not delight in evil. He hates it. And he uses it for his purposes, then conquers it —puts it to death. You cannot prove logically (nor from Scripture) that he did not intend that there be evil.

I agree that God will work for good according to his purpose, regardless of the circumstances.

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God absolutely does not intend that there be evil. God does permit evil. God is perfect good. He cannot intend evil.

Psalm 136:1 O give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.”

 

[Mark Quayle]

We can agree that the text says God did not command them to do this abomination. And yes, the horror.

You read it again - my point holds! It says that nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, which is very different from never entered his mind to command them to do such a thing.

Don't be too sure of yourself.

"And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin."

Young's Literal Translation