Idolatry

[JM]

Good insights into the second commandment from a Reformed perspective.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This guy seems to claim that the second commandment was not broken by Aaron and the children of Israel.

Yet we read...


Ex 32
7 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

Please correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick...

Frankly I turned it off when I heard this - did I misunderstand ???

 

[JM]

This guy seems to claim that the second commandment was not broken by Aaron and the children of Israel.

Yet we read...


Ex 32
7 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

Please correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick...

Frankly I turned it off when I heard this - did I misunderstand ???

You missed the point by holding the wrong end of the stick

The pastor is saying Aaron went wrong by creating an image of YHWH to worship, it's right there in the text, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!' Aaron thought he was creating an idol of "the god... who brought" them out of Egypt.

Similar to the Jesus loving Lutheran who thinks it's okay to use Orthodox Icons or statues of Christ during worship. The commandment is broken by their use because the second commandment is not about worshipping other gods but making an image of the true God. Maybe finish the video for clarity.

Anyway, that's how I understood it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The pastor is saying Aaron went wrong by creating an image of YHWH to worship, it's right there in the text, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!' Aaron thought he was creating an idol of "the god... who brought" them out of Egypt.

It wasn't an image of God.

 

[JM]

It wasn't an image of God.

They thought it was.

"This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!'"

 

[Carl Emerson]

They thought it was.

"This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!'"

But that is the point - they were deceived.

 

[JM]

But that is the point - they were deceived.

They wanted to have an image, an idol of Yahweh, that's how they went astray. Did you finish the video? The Pastor went on to explain it using the historic creeds.

I maintain, the sin was not worshipping a false god, but worshipping God using idols. It doesn't matter if it was a golden calf or blue eyed blonde haired Jesus both are wrong and sinful.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Now this gets into questions of fulfillment of the OT law as opposed to those who are under redemptive grace.

Do you think all those who saw Jesus in the flesh suddenly forgot what he looked like at the point he ascended back to heaven? And if you suppose that they didn't forget what he looked like; were their memories than suddenly idolatry?

Which the reality that God did appear in human flesh, brings up a certain reality as it related to the incarnation. As soon as Christ is incarnated; there God is. It's not an image because the substance is standing in their presence. When that which is in full has appeared than that which is in part is done away with.

Which icons and pictures become a different issue than the manifest express image of God appearing in this material cosmos. Yet even in the OT there were theophonic figures (assumed to be) some manifestation of God appearing as a material entity in this material cosmos. And of course, God's act of doing these things does not break His own law.

So.... how would you reconcile that?

 

[JM]

Now this gets into questions of fulfillment of the OT law as opposed to those who are under redemptive grace.

Do you think all those who saw Jesus in the flesh suddenly forgot what he looked like at the point he ascended back to heaven? And if you suppose that they didn't forget what he looked like; were their memories than suddenly idolatry?

Which the reality that God did appear in human flesh, brings up a certain reality as it related to the incarnation. As soon as Christ is incarnated; there God is. It's not an image because the substance is standing in their presence. When that which is in full has appeared than that which is in part is done away with.

Which icons and pictures become a different issue than the manifest express image of God appearing in this material cosmos. Yet even in the OT there were theophonic figures (assumed to be) some manifestation of God appearing as a material entity in this material cosmos. And of course, God's act of doing these things does not break His own law.

So.... how would you reconcile that?

I'm going to side with the Reformed Confessions on this.

We are not commanded to create idols rather the obverse. NEVER create idols. Seeing Jesus in the flesh is not man creating an idol but God incarnate. If those that seen Jesus created images of Him to use during worship that would be the creation of an idol.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I'm going to side with the Reformed Confessions on this.

We are not commanded to create idols rather the obverse. NEVER create idols. Seeing Jesus in the flesh is not man creating an idol but God incarnate. If those that seen Jesus created images of Him to use during worship that would be the creation of an idol.

Not sure you got the point of what I'm saying.

An image that an artist (or photograph for that matter) put into an artistic (or photographic / cinemagraphic) medium is still an image; and that image came out of the mind of someone. Regardless if that's something an artist drew, or a byproduct of the invention of photography. It is still technically a "graven image".

Do memories count as "graven images"? Were theophanies "graven images"? Is a photograph of your mom a "graven image"?

We know the express image of God became a man; so what's the difference between someone's memory, a drawing, a photograph or a motion picture? We know a painting isn't Jesus and an actor on a screen isn't Jesus.

So... at that point it would come down to defining idolatry. OT defines idolatry as worshiping an image one created as if that image were God. Obviously even the golden calf in Exodus wasn't God. Thus the question seems to me to be a little more complicated than the surface explanations we read in the Old Testament. And further complicated by the fact that God "put on" flesh.

 

[JM]

But that is the point - they were deceived.

Hey, (@Carl Emerson ) I could be wrong. This podcast adds something to the discussion.

BPT – Hathor and the Golden Calf, and Matthew 24: 9-14 - Bible Prophecy Talk Podcast