Gay Christians: give it up

EnemyPartyII

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Come on KCKID... what makes more sense to believe here, your ridiculous assertions with nothing more than logic, archaeology, and historical documentation to support them, or the far more plausible arguments put forward by BMS, based on what he really, REALLY wants to be true?
 
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brightmorningstar

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Ok KCKID,
I know a good deal about the Church of Corinth in Paul's day.
If not I would suggest that you do a little research because you will then see what this whole 'tongues' thing was all about.
I suggest you do some research.

The entire message in 1 Corinthians 13/14 concerns LOVE.
Essentially the whole of the Bible is about love as the whole of the Bible is about God and god is love. To pick out two chapters is not only unrepresentative of the Bible as a whole, but poorly missing that 1 Corinthians 13 is in the middle of two chapters which address spiritual gifts.
Paul is saying to these rather corrupted Corinthians (some VERY corrupted, it would seem) that whatever they might do in church is absolutely of no benefit if there is no love involved.
That’s essentially correct, but of course chapter 14 is encouraging them in their gifts

“Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts”
And
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,
The corruptions you are referring to are the things like sexual immorality including same sex unions (1 Cor 6)

Now your points don’t address my correction of your misinformation about the nature of tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.“ That’s not human languages as you said.
Furthermore that’s not the only teaching on this 1 Corinthians 14:14 “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.”
 
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artybloke

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Come on KCKID... what makes more sense to believe here, your ridiculous assertions with nothing more than logic, archaeology, and historical documentation to support them, or the far more plausible arguments put forward by BMS, based on what he really, REALLY wants to be true?

"Tell me what I want, what I really really want
I really realy wanna hate gay folks...":D
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Wade Smith

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And yet the Bible in talking of tongues in respect of the Pentecost event, speaks of them as understandable tongues readily understood by those people from the countries of origin.

Yes, but let me try to explain this again.

The "prayer language" that you get on the first infilling is not necessarily the "Gift of Tongues".

The "Gift of Tongues" is used in giving a divine utterance in a congregation, or in some rare cases such as on the Day of Pentecost, and in the book "Before we kill and Eat you", it can be used to give a divine utterance directly to a person of another native language that you do not know.


If "Tongues" simply represented a person "learning" a new language, then "Interpretation of Tongues" would not be a seperate Gift...Either you "Know" French, or you don't.


Now, if there is a congregation of 1000 pentecostal christians, and lets say 500 of them have received the Holy Spirit and have the evidence of Tongues, with the remnant having never asked (in my experience, everyone who asks eventually gets it). Ok, that gives us up to 500 "prayer languages" though many will be repeats.

But there are some issues with the "prayer language". In many cases, it really does develope just like a child learning to speak for the first time.

The "prayer language" is not really intended to be understood by other people, but if a given person's prayer language happens to be French, and there is a French person standing by, they will understand it.


Now, lets take the same hypothetical Spirit filled believer, who's prayer language was french. If this person also has the "Gift" of Tongues, which is not the same thing as the prayer language, then this is some examples of what CAN happen.

1) Utterance and interpretation.

A) The person with the "Gift" of tongues speaks by divine inspiration in a language that they do NOT know. It can be different every time, or it can be the same. Lets say this time it is Arabic.

B) If anyone standing by KNOWS Arabic, they will understand the tongue, but this is NOT the "Gift" of interpretation.

C) Usually another person gives the interpretation. This is a second divinely inspired utterance.

D) If the person in B above knows both languages, that person can verify that both the utterances are one and the same.


Now, just because there is nobody around that knows Arabic does not negate the legitimacy of A and C. Paul said, "Greater is he that prophesies UNLESS he interprets."

In other words, "Tongues + Interpretation = Prophecy", with or without B and D.

Moreover, the same speaker who spoke in Arabic this time may end up speaking in Japanese next time this happens. There isn't necessarily a restriction.


2) "Gift of Tongues" for Direct Prophecy to a foreigner

As I mentioned, already in the book "Before we Kill and Eat You", H.B. Garlock records that instance in a hostage situation where God himself told him, "Open your mouth and I'll fill it."

He began to speak in tongues, and in this case the language that came out was the native language of the tribe that held the hostages. The tribe released the hostages. and he asked them what happened.

The translator says, "I don't know, but you're speaking their language". It turns out, that what he was saying was literally a divine sentence from God, the gist of which was, "If you don't release those hostages, My God is going to destroy you," and apparantly something that only God could have known was said, which convinced them that he wasn't bluffing.


Now, if we have 500 different people in a congregation, some of their "tongues" will be redundant. Some will have obscure dialects that are very rare and they may never actually encounter someone who understands the particular tongue.

Does that negate the importance of it? Not really.

You can't expect people to actually be bothered "searching out" what dialect they are speaking, particularly since the church has accounts of it not even being the same dialect every time, as mentioned above.

In fact, it would almost seem to ruin the Gift if you actually did that.
 
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KCKID

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Since I'm presently having problems with my sound card I can't hear what Wade has posted. However, I'm sure that I HAVE heard it all before. There is absolutely NO REASON to believe that the definition of 'tongues' that we see in Acts suddenly took on a different scriptural meaning ...and for NO good reason, I quickly add. Every instance of the word 'tongue/s' as in 'language' is the Greek word 'glossa'. It never means anything other than 'language' that is spoken and understood by SOMEONE of a particular nationality. There is no such thing as a literal UNKNOWN 'tongue/language'. EVERY language is known to someone.

'Babble' is NOT a language and cannot therefore even be understood by God.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To KCKID,
Its an excellent link.
There is certainly no reason to believe that the 'tongues' descibed in Acts suddenly took on a different scriptural meaning. No one has been saying that have they?
Every instance of the word 'tongue/s' as in 'language' is the Greek word 'glossa'. It never means anything other than 'language' that is spoken and understood by SOMEONE of a particular nationality.
But that it has been shown to you is the reason you are wrong. Although glossa is the word, how is the langauage of men and angels the same? What language do Angels speak if not the language of men? (1 Corinthians 13:1) Do Angels speak French, and if so, is French not a langauage of men? Your argument doesnt make sense. If people speak in an unknown tongue (1 Cor 14:2) who is it unknown to? If men have heard this tongue and it is unknown, it is not a language of men.
Your argument denies the obvious.

But the link is very important to the debate, it speaks about unless a Christian is transformed by the renewing of their mind to know Christ they cant know Him. One of the ways we can see each other are transformed is to see whether our minds are transformed to agree with and obey Christ's teaching or not.
But there is much more in the link, I recommend you listen asap on another computer if you can.
 
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LogosRhema

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From my own experience in Pentecostal circles... Its very emotionally lead train. A "good" service is when everyone is apparantly "feeling" up to worship and from what I've gather after being in AoG for 7 years was that emotional instances like these lead to... rather weird situations. With them pressing we must speak tongues to be "baptised" in the Holy Spirit. People running around screaming. Other things that seem more in disorder than anything.

Shouldn't our Faith be led by Faith? With emotions running tail?

I am not moved by what I hear. I am not moved by what I see. I am not moved by how I feel. I am move by what I believe.

The other curious thing I noticed among these pentecostal circles is... After 7 years and growing up and out of that season in my life. No one in that church ever really progressed in their faith. Progression was rated by how much emotion and speaking in tongues in service was portrayed. This isn't pressed, but looking back thats what I see.

Maybe I'm wrong though?

Though, now being outside of the pentecostal church. I find that tongues (or actual speaking language) does occur. Pastor Kevin Sneed was preaching one Sunday and after the service a man (If I remember correctly knew indian) stated that he heard Kevin speaking in his native tongue. Yet Pastor Kevin spoke English the entire time.

God ftw. :)
 
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Crazy Liz

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Which is all well and good if we're talking to lost sheep. However, Jesus had harsh word to say to the Pharisees. Why? Because they should have known better. 'Gay Christians' should also know better; that being said I didn't mean to cause any particular offence... but if God's word causes offence, well, that just shows that it is effective against sin and the works of wickedness.:bow:

Your comparison with the Pharisees isn't very good here. Why Because ALL the prophets after the time of Josiah - EVERY ONE OF THEM - told God's people what God wanted was love for neighbors and social justice, rather than strict religious observance. Yet the Pharisees went the opposite direction. They, as non-priests, adopted for themselves the strict holiness codes prescribed for the priests, and neglected their moral duties, as Jesus pointed out. What Jesus said to the Pharisees only echoed what Jeremiah and Micah and Malachi and all the others in-between had already said.

Compare the amount of scripture devoted to social justice with the amount off scripture devoted to sexual purity and other forms of ritual purity. I think you'll see which is more important. The forms of sexuality we can be certain are unequivocally condemned in both the Old and New Testaments are the forms that are either exploitative, or idolatrous or adulterous (in the sense that they offend a real marriage relationship, not an oppressive right to control, as in the case of Tamar). Purity codes should never be elevated above social justice or love of neighbor. This is a principle we see throughout the Prophets and the Gospels.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Dear Crazy Liz,
Compare the amount of scripture devoted to social justice with the amount off scripture devoted to sexual purity and other forms of ritual purity.
What do you mean by social justice. Is God not just? Are His ways not just?

Let me take material help for the poor as an aspect of social justice.
There are about 42 references (NIV) to ‘the poor’ including many of these as to preaching the good news to the poor and the poor in spirit. As to material help for the poor, Matt 19:21, Matt 26:9, 11, Mark 10:21, Mark 14:5, Luke 12:33, Luke 14:13, 21, Luke 18:22, Luke 19;8, John 13:29, Acts 10:5, Acts 10:31 Acts 24:17, Romans 15:26. = 16
There are 28 references (NIV) to ‘sexual immorality Matthew 15:19, Mark 7:21, Acts 15:20, Acts 15:29, Romans 1:24, Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 5:11, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 6:12, 1 Corinthians 6:13, 1 Corinthians 6:18, 1 Corinthians 10:8,
2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, Hebrews 12:16, Hebrews 13:4, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, Rev 2:20, 9:21, 21:8, 22:15.

The Pharisees disagreed with what Jesus said, His disciples often did during His ministry, but when the Holy Spirit was poured out they were reminded of all He taught.
 
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Crazy Liz

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Dear Crazy Liz,
<snip>
The Pharisees disagreed with what Jesus said, His disciples often did during His ministry, but when the Holy Spirit was poured out they were reminded of all He taught.

:confused: Are you trying to say you have the Holy Spirit and I don't? :confused:
 
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brightmorningstar

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Dear Crazy Liz,
Are you trying to say you have the Holy Spirit and I don't?
No, but you obviously are; I haven&#8217;t mentioned myself or anyone else, our lives aren&#8217;t recorded in the NT. Peter is a good example. One moment he acknowledged Jesus as Christ, the next he was influenced by Satan. Mind you, apart from being the confident and bold apostle in Acts, he still had to be reminded a couple of times of what Jesus Christ taught.


Care to respond to my criticism of your remark about sexuality and social justice?
 
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Crazy Liz

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Dear Crazy Liz,
No, but you obviously are;


No, I was asking what inference you intended me to draw from your statement.

I haven&#8217;t mentioned myself or anyone else, our lives aren&#8217;t recorded in the NT. Peter is a good example. One moment he acknowledged Jesus as Christ, the next he was influenced by Satan. Mind you, apart from being the confident and bold apostle in Acts, he still had to be reminded a couple of times of what Jesus Christ taught.

Care to respond to my criticism of your remark about sexuality and social justice?

I said more scripture. I find it interesting you entirely omitted the prophets.

Also, some of the passages on sexuality you mentioned were not related to purity at all. The ones in the gospels are about marriage, divorce and adultery. I tried to make a distinction in my post between sexual purity and offenses against marriages and families (which are condemned) and sexual oppression and exploitation (also condemned). Sexual purity is something found primarily in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and deals primarily with practices related to idolatrous worship.

WRT the scriptures you listed, there are many teachings on social justice that do not use the word "poor." Some other key words you might want to search for include "widows," "orphans," "lame," "blind," "deaf," "prisoners," "captives," "slaves," "laborers," "Samaritans," etc.

I am reminded right now of Malachi, Matthew and Mark, three books in which divorce is treated as a social justice issue. In fact, I think I could make a good case that each and every scripture passage about divorce approaches it from a social justice perspective, although that's probably a topic for another thread in the Christian Scriptures section.

Your comparison of the number of occurrences of the word porneia, as opposed to the number of occurrences of the word ptochos in the NT is no gauge of the amount of scripture about social justice vs. the amount about purity. I also find it interesting that I used the Prophets as prime examples, and you chose to exclude the Prophets from the set of scriptures you chose to compare.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Crazy Liz,

No, I was asking what inference you intended me to draw from your statement.
I didn&#8217;t intend you draw any, I intended you to address the truth of the gospel regarding the Holy Spirit.


I said more scripture. I find it interesting you entirely omitted the prophets.
Good point, I did only refer to the NT teaching. Would you like to prove your point with the prophets?


Also, some of the passages on sexuality you mentioned were not related to purity at all.
Ok well you give yours first and I see whether yours do.


WRT the scriptures you listed, there are many teachings on social justice that do not use the word "poor."
Poor was an example of social justice, sexual immorality is an example of purity.


Care to give some evidence to substantiate your point which I think is inaccurate and an increasingly common inaccuracy being proposed.
 
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Crazy Liz

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I could begin by reproducing about 25% of the Bible. Show me one instance in the Prophets of a purity teaching that is not related to social justice.

However, my point did not have to do primarily with the number of words or amount of space dedicated to any particular point, but to the relative importance put on each. In the words of Jesus and in the words of the Prophets, we have many direct statements that social justice is more important than purity. We can begin with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Even a large part of the Bible's teachings on sexuality have more to do with social justice than with purity.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Crazy Liz,

I could begin by reproducing about 25% of the Bible. Show me one instance in the Prophets of a purity teaching that is not related to social justice.
No I&#8217;m not showing you any more till you show me something, You made a claim without evidence and I disputed it with evidence. Show some evidence. &#8230; but be aware that Jesus fulfils the law and prophets, there is a lot more law about dietry requirements in the OT yet not so in the NT.

I suggest if one wants to follow Jesus Christ, one looks to Jesus Christ in order to do it.
Please show some evidence with scriputre references because at present I am not unconvinced by your heresay.
 
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