Free will and determinism

d taylor

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The idea that you can choose your beliefs is called doxastic voluntarism. There are “direct” and “indirect” versions of it.

“To require that cognitive agents attend to the processes of belief formation, maintenance and revision might make it sound as if we are wholly at liberty with respect to what we believe, that what we believe is under our direct voluntary control. But surely this is false. Which of us can by sheer effort reject the belief that the earth is round or accept the belief that our bank account contains millions more dollars than its actual balance? Beliefs aren’t subject to our direct control in this way. Typically we don’t decide what to believe, but rather find ourselves believing as we do as a result of various life experiences, early training, the testimony of authorities, other forms of social conditioning and so forth, long before we come to think critically about the sources of our beliefs. If most of our beliefs come to us unbidden, how then can I say that we should preside over our accepting and rejecting beliefs?
“While it is true that we do not exercise direct voluntary control over what we believe, we can influence the processes of belief formation, maintenance and revision indirectly. We can, for instance, voluntarily commit ourselves to a course of study that will eventuate in our coming to accept new beliefs. We can note tendencies we might have to believe with undue readiness unflattering statements about people we don’t like, or to discount unfairly the criticisms of those who disagree with our preferred ways of thinking about a subject; we can then undertake disciplines that will loose the power of tendencies have to affect the way we believe. We can, as behavioral psychologists often recommend, voluntarily commit ourselves to courses of action—volunteer work in the inner city, for instance—that will change the way we think about, say, matters of race and interpersonal relations. Generally speaking, then, the control we exercise in forming, sustaining and rejecting beliefs is indirect, brought about either by working on good habits of mind or by engaging in behaviors such as investigating a body of evidence, undergoing experiences of various sorts, or considering the opinions of others, and so forth (Wood, Epistemology, pp. 28-29).
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“I do not mean to suggest by this that we have direct voluntary control over our beliefs. Almost certainly we do not. But we can reject a conclusion in the sense that we refuse to acquiesce in believing it, continue to search for reasons to the contrary, conduct ourselves as though it were false, etc.—and such measures can influence our beliefs indirectly” (McCann, Creation and the Sovereignty of God, p. 238, note 20).

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“Doxastic voluntarism is a controversial thesis, but it is important to keep in mind that it does not mean one has direct, immediate control over one’s beliefs. If someone offered you a million dollars to believe right now that a pink elephant was in your room, you could not do it if you wanted to. People’s beliefs usually just come to them. Upon looking at a red object, one simply finds himself believing it is red. Nevertheless, one could still have indirect control over a belief. Perhaps people cannot directly change their beliefs, but they may be free to do certain things (e.g., study certain evidence and avoid other evidence) to move themselves to a position to change their beliefs” (Moreland and Craig, Philosophical Foundations of a Christian Worldview, p. 87).
 
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Bradskii

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'We can, for instance, voluntarily commit ourselves to a course of study that will eventuate in our coming to accept new beliefs.'
What might be the cause of you wanting to do that?
 
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Bradskii

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Factors in one's life leading to a decision whether good, bad or indifferent. Not predetermined factors, as there is no such thing.
If something has happened which causes you to make a decision, then what has happened has already happened. It has, by definition, already been determined.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I did clarify that I was describing causal determinism. That any event is caused by previous conditions. Or to put it another way, no event happens without there being some cause. As per Aquinas (and others). So in that sense the world is determinate. So any decision one makes is determined by previous conditions. Repeat the exact conditions and the event will happen exactly in the same way.

If you think that wouldn't happen, then can you give me an example where it doesn't?
Haha, Yeah, like 'exact conditions' ever happen again!
 
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Mark Quayle

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The idea that you can choose your beliefs is called doxastic voluntarism. There are “direct” and “indirect” versions of it.

“To require that cognitive agents attend to the processes of belief formation, maintenance and revision might make it sound as if we are wholly at liberty with respect to what we believe, that what we believe is under our direct voluntary control. But surely this is false. Which of us can by sheer effort reject the belief that the earth is round or accept the belief that our bank account contains millions more dollars than its actual balance? Beliefs aren’t subject to our direct control in this way. Typically we don’t decide what to believe, but rather find ourselves believing as we do as a result of various life experiences, early training, the testimony of authorities, other forms of social conditioning and so forth, long before we come to think critically about the sources of our beliefs. If most of our beliefs come to us unbidden, how then can I say that we should preside over our accepting and rejecting beliefs?
“While it is true that we do not exercise direct voluntary control over what we believe, we can influence the processes of belief formation, maintenance and revision indirectly. We can, for instance, voluntarily commit ourselves to a course of study that will eventuate in our coming to accept new beliefs. We can note tendencies we might have to believe with undue readiness unflattering statements about people we don’t like, or to discount unfairly the criticisms of those who disagree with our preferred ways of thinking about a subject; we can then undertake disciplines that will loose the power of tendencies have to affect the way we believe. We can, as behavioral psychologists often recommend, voluntarily commit ourselves to courses of action—volunteer work in the inner city, for instance—that will change the way we think about, say, matters of race and interpersonal relations. Generally speaking, then, the control we exercise in forming, sustaining and rejecting beliefs is indirect, brought about either by working on good habits of mind or by engaging in behaviors such as investigating a body of evidence, undergoing experiences of various sorts, or considering the opinions of others, and so forth (Wood, Epistemology, pp. 28-29).
---------------------------------------------
“I do not mean to suggest by this that we have direct voluntary control over our beliefs. Almost certainly we do not. But we can reject a conclusion in the sense that we refuse to acquiesce in believing it, continue to search for reasons to the contrary, conduct ourselves as though it were false, etc.—and such measures can influence our beliefs indirectly” (McCann, Creation and the Sovereignty of God, p. 238, note 20).

---------------------------------------------

“Doxastic voluntarism is a controversial thesis, but it is important to keep in mind that it does not mean one has direct, immediate control over one’s beliefs. If someone offered you a million dollars to believe right now that a pink elephant was in your room, you could not do it if you wanted to. People’s beliefs usually just come to them. Upon looking at a red object, one simply finds himself believing it is red. Nevertheless, one could still have indirect control over a belief. Perhaps people cannot directly change their beliefs, but they may be free to do certain things (e.g., study certain evidence and avoid other evidence) to move themselves to a position to change their beliefs” (Moreland and Craig, Philosophical Foundations of a Christian Worldview, p. 87).
"Voluntary" is not at all the same thing as what "libertarian free will" proponents mean by free will. "Voluntary" does not imply spontaneity.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Factors in one's life leading to a decision whether good, bad or indifferent. Not predetermined factors, as there is no such thing.
If factors lead on to a certain decision, then something led to the factors. Nothing comes from nothing.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Bear in mind that unpredictability and indeterminism aren't the same things. Some things (most things) are undoubtedly chaotic and cannot be predicted in any way. But that doesn't mean that they are indeterminate.
Yes. I was casting my net wide, on purpose. I dislike the mindset that claims true spontaneity, and that trusts in the wording we construct to represent our concepts.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Very insightful! Since causality determines the outcome of every unfolding event, then everything that will ever occur is exactly how it should be. The present is the product of the past, and the future the present.

Free will is illusory on many levels, including on this idea of causality. Our biological response to certain circumstances also has a hand in our decision-making. We are conscious of the unfolding of creation, while seemingly participating in the experience of it. We are the witness of the Universe unraveling itself. It can seem incredible, terrifying, and exciting all at the same time.
"...then everything that will occur is exactly how it should be."? :p Have you found the solution to the ' "is—ought" problem'?
 
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Mark Quayle

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We have free will, but we are not 'powerful enough' so that we could decide all we want. Need to adapt.
What do you mean by "free" in that statement? Uncaused?
 
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Mark Quayle

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"God's will and knowledge of possibilities would be a cause, but then human choices would also be a cause that affects the chain of events. The effect wouldn't be solely determined by God's will, but by the interplay between God's will and the choices humans freely make."

I found this quote quite enlightening.
Blessings.
So God is just another player, albeit more powerful than ourselves, within this realm of existence? Or is it, rather, that hen is the cause of existence itself?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I feel compelled to say that free will exists.
What do you mean by "free" there? Uncaused? Indeterminate until a decision decides what happens?
 
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zippy2006

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Mark Quayle

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If it's random, then that almost by definition excludes free will.
THAT'S one of the main parts that most free-willers don't seem to get! Their defense is lack of determinism, from which they [must logically] derive randomness and chance, which not only are self-contradictory, but they can't demonstrate how we get from 50-50 to the obvious 100% after-the-fact.
 
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"Causality exists, therefore determinism is true."
Comprehensively pervasive Causality does determine all things except first cause, the "uncaused causer".
 
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essentialsaltes

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eleos1954

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All decisions we make are determined by existing and prior influences. There has been an effectively infinite chain of events which has resulted in me sitting here writing this sentence. They have all led to this point. From the major events - I was born at a specific time and place, to the minor ones - it's raining today, to the seemingly inconsequential - I broke a string on my guitar last night.

There is no way that existence cannot be described other than determined.

The question is then not whether we make decisions that affect the trajectory of future events - I obviously decided to do this rather than something else. But if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events and we could rerun the last hour exactly as it happened and make a different decision, then something actually needs to be different. But rerunning it exactly as it happened means that nothing is different.

So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.
Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.

Indeed ... people are always in the position of choice ... that is what freedom is

All decisions we make are determined by existing and prior influences.
Not exclusively .... there are "split second" decisions we might make ... such as we might perceive something as dangerous without having ever experienced it or a prior influence.

Our brains can reveal our choices before we're even aware of them ... unconscious brain activity
 
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