For me, it's either theistic evolution or nothing.

[theFijian]

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of evolution.

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever for your statement

 

[mizzkittenzz]

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever for your statement

Yours either.

 

[abysmul]

For me, it's either theistic evolution or nothing.

For me, it's "God did it", after that my opinion on exactly how doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. None of us with an opinion on the matter were there to witness the event. We have our scripture, and science to help us form an opinion... that's about it.

 

[Willtor]

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of evolution.

"Proof" is a slippery term.

The point regarding evolution is that it is just about as well supported a theory as exists in science. There is shockingly overwhelming evidence for it. And if you have programming and algorithm skills, you can verify quite a lot of that evidence for yourself without leaving your living room.

 

[Messy]

There are mountains of evidence for evolution. It is corroborated by research in every field. Scientists are basically unanimous these days. The only ones who won't give in, after 150 years, are the fundamentalists.

So for me, and many others I'm sure, it's either theistic evolution or we simply can not believe in Christianity.
This is why Christians should stop telling people they can't believe in evolution. Is a person's belief in evolution going to send them to Hell, as long as they believe that Jesus has saved them and they have accepted him? No! As long as the central belief is there, it doesn't matter what a person thinks about the origin of the earth. It's like whether a person believes in post-Trib or pre-Trib. Who the hell cares?

If Christians keep pushing the view that people can't believe in both Christianity and evolution, many potential Christians will be lost. They will be pushed away from the church as it becomes increasingly anachronistic. The will say, "I believe in evolution; of course I can't be a Christian." But that's only because Christians themselves have promoted this view. They have a damn grudge match with evolution. Christianity and evolution need not be mutually exclusive.

I believe in evolution, and in my view, if God was involved, it is an absolutely beautiful phenomenon. It is the work of a master artist, a supremely brilliant engineer. A single-celled organism gave way to all of the life we see on earth around us. It's amazing! Praise be to God for this glorious master work that shows us his incredible ingenuity.

I don't believe theistic evolution, but who cares if someone's brain can't accept YEC or GAP.

 

[theFijian]

Yours either.

So you understand how meaningless your statement was. Good.

 

[random person]

Once the believer realizes that the creation account and the flood are stories not scientific articles of faith.

What did this ancient writer(s) of these two pieces of Genesis, know about biology, know about astronomy, know about geology, etc?

So this writer(s) say if they were literally resurrected today, should they immediately enter our academia and reteach us all? Educate us all?

They could teach us the distance of the stars and how fast star light moves?

 

[roasthawg]

For me, it's "God did it", after that my opinion on exactly how doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. None of us with an opinion on the matter were there to witness the event. We have our scripture, and science to help us form an opinion... that's about it.

Great post. Ours is a faith based religion. The world is at odds with Christianity, always will be. The devil uses many devices to try to weaken faith... Science has definitely been a great weapon of his for quite awhile now. That said, if a Christian believes in a very literal creation and is drawn into conversion about it I don't believe they need to hold back in expressing their views at all. The Bible is not mistaken in anything it says. Whether or not the creation account is an allegory will be up for debate until Jesus returns I imagine but that won't keep those chosen from coming to Christ.

"No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him."

 

[Hoghead1]

Can't say as I agree, Roasthawg. First of all, science is not some weapon of the Devil here. To start with, science is not at all equipped to deal with questions of God. Scientific discoveries are actually neutral on this question. Evolution per se is entirely mute on whether there is or is not a God. Many Christians believe in evolution. I, for one, believe evolution would have been impossible without God. When the Bible enters the picture, the issue is how exactly you want to interpret the biblical geophysics. From the 16thecentury on, science debunked the biblical cosmology, with its flat earth and geocentric view. Yet, that did not stop Christians from honoring the Bible or believing in God. Calvin, in his commentary in Genesis, stressed that God did not intend to give us an astronomy lesson, for example. If you examine the Sitz and Leben of the biblical world, that makes sense. Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is the product of a semi-barbaric, prescientific culture. Under those circumstances it would be ridiculous to assume the biblical writers had any knowledge of advanced scientific truth. Also, God is like a careful carpenter. God works with the grain, not over and against it. God can move only as fast as we are ready and able. Hence, God was not about to reveal scientific truths to the writers, anymore than God would have been willing to give Columbus a nuclear sub.
Much comes down to how you want to interpret Scripture. Everyone views Scripture through some sort of lens. With many, especially the laity, the lens is that provided by the teachings of their church, which they generally assume to be without question. They go to the Bible, then, with the idea firmly fixed in their heads that it is inerrant. The way things happened is exactly the way the Bible says they did. Nothing else will do or even be considered. From the standpoint of modern biblical studies, however, that is about the worst thing you can do. You should come to Scripture, with an open with. You should come with the lens provided by a healthy skepticism about traditional teachings. Maybe Genesis is accurate, maybe not. Maybe the Bible is inerrant, maybe not. Let's do some thorough research and then base our conclusions on that.

 

[roasthawg]

Can't say as I agree, Roasthawg. First of all, science is not some weapon of the Devil here. To start with, science is not at all equipped to deal with questions of God. Scientific discoveries are actually neutral on this question. Evolution per se is entirely mute on whether there is or is not a God. Many Christians believe in evolution. I, for one, believe evolution would have been impossible without God. When the Bible enters the picture, the issue is how exactly you want to interpret the biblical geophysics. From the 16thecentury on, science debunked the biblical cosmology, with its flat earth and geocentric view. Yet, that did not stop Christians from honoring the Bible or believing in God. Calvin, in his commentary in Genesis, stressed that God did not intend to give us an astronomy lesson, for example. If you examine the Sitz and Leben of the biblical world, that makes sense. Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is the product of a semi-barbaric, prescientific culture. Under those circumstances it would be ridiculous to assume the biblical writers had any knowledge of advanced scientific truth. Also, God is like a careful carpenter. God works with the grain, not over and against it. God can move only as fast as we are ready and able. Hence, God was not about to reveal scientific truths to the writers, anymore than God would have been willing to give Columbus a nuclear sub.
Much comes down to how you want to interpret Scripture. Everyone views Scripture through some sort of lens. With many, especially the laity, the lens is that provided by the teachings of their church, which they generally assume to be without question. They go to the Bible, then, with the idea firmly fixed in their heads that it is inerrant. The way things happened is exactly the way the Bible says they did. Nothing else will do or even be considered. From the standpoint of modern biblical studies, however, that is about the worst thing you can do. You should come to Scripture, with an open with. You should come with the lens provided by a healthy skepticism about traditional teachings. Maybe Genesis is accurate, maybe not. Maybe the Bible is inerrant, maybe not. Let's do some thorough research and then base our conclusions on that.

Science in and of itself is fine. God surely gave us intuitive minds for a reason. But believing in something at the expense of God's word is a snare... And I doubt you'd disagree that when it comes to science vs the word many have fallen into this snare. So science is not bad in the same way many of the other weapons in the devil's arsenal are not bad. But any idol in place of the Lord is where the problem lies... And science surely is an idol above the Lord for many. What those who choose science over the word fail to realize is that "those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know."

For those of you who wholeheartedly love the Lord and trust in his word and enjoy science as a means to understanding, in part, the Lord's amazing creation I say more power to you. But as with anything keep your guard up lest you think you know something you don't.

 

[Merlin]

There are mountains of evidence for evolution. It is corroborated by research in every field. Scientists are basically unanimous these days. The only ones who won't give in, after 150 years, are the fundamentalists.

So for me, and many others I'm sure, it's either theistic evolution or we simply can not believe in Christianity.
This is why Christians should stop telling people they can't believe in evolution. Is a person's belief in evolution going to send them to Hell, as long as they believe that Jesus has saved them and they have accepted him? No! As long as the central belief is there, it doesn't matter what a person thinks about the origin of the earth. It's like whether a person believes in post-Trib or pre-Trib. Who the hell cares?

If Christians keep pushing the view that people can't believe in both Christianity and evolution, many potential Christians will be lost. They will be pushed away from the church as it becomes increasingly anachronistic. The will say, "I believe in evolution; of course I can't be a Christian." But that's only because Christians themselves have promoted this view. They have a damn grudge match with evolution. Christianity and evolution need not be mutually exclusive.

I believe in evolution, and in my view, if God was involved, it is an absolutely beautiful phenomenon. It is the work of a master artist, a supremely brilliant engineer. A single-celled organism gave way to all of the life we see on earth around us. It's amazing! Praise be to God for this glorious master work that shows us his incredible ingenuity.

Personally I reject evolution without regard to the bible.
Consider, for instance, the muscles for the fingers.
To give us good grip strength the muscles are very big.
They will not fit in the fingers, so, somehow they mutated themselves into the arms.
Then, there are strings attached to the fingertips and go back to the arm muscles.
I just cannot accept somehow we mutated in such a way (10x, once for each finger)
That a string mutated somehow for each finger, snaked its way up the finger, across the hand, through the wrist, and attached itself to a muscle in the arm.
It just seems too fantastic for me to believe.
And there are many more examples.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm not sure you quite grasped my point, Rosathawg. it is not a matter of science pitted against the Word. My Old OT professor liked to shake up everyone, all the juniors, first-year seminarians, first day of OT class, by bodily walking into class and dramatically flinging the Bible in the wastebasket and saying in a loud voice, "The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of Man. The Word of God is contained in the Word of Man." That is my view. We must not make an idol out of the Bible, fall into bibliolatry. Actually, the Bible never refers to itself and the Word of God, as that title is reserved exclusively for Christ, period. So, as I tried to indicate in my previous post, I do not accept the Bible as some inerrant repository of truth or some kind of answer book for every and any problem. Again, I think that is bibliolatry. Hence, I think it is an abuse of Scripture to pit it against science.

 

[Papias]

Science in and of itself is fine. God surely gave us intuitive minds for a reason. But believing in something at the expense of God's word is a snare... And I doubt you'd disagree that when it comes to science vs the word many have fallen into this snare. So science is not bad in the same way many of the other weapons in the devil's arsenal are not bad. But any idol in place of the Lord is where the problem lies... And science surely is an idol above the Lord for many.

So do you say this when people talk about the earth being a sphere, or germs causing disease? What about that infernal theory of gravity? Is that a potential snare?

In Christ-

Papias

 

[roasthawg]

I'm not sure you quite grasped my point, Rosathawg. it is not a matter of science pitted against the Word. My Old OT professor liked to shake up everyone, all the juniors, first-year seminarians, first day of OT class, by bodily walking into class and dramatically flinging the Bible in the wastebasket and saying in a loud voice, "The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of Man. The Word of God is contained in the Word of Man." That is my view. We must not make an idol out of the Bible, fall into bibliolatry. Actually, the Bible never refers to itself and the Word of God, as that title is reserved exclusively for Christ, period. So, as I tried to indicate in my previous post, I do not accept the Bible as some inerrant repository of truth or some kind of answer book for every and any problem. Again, I think that is bibliolatry. Hence, I think it is an abuse of Scripture to pit it against science.

Ok, I did miss your point. We have differing views on the Bible then... I believe in its inerrancy.

 

[roasthawg]

So do you say this when people talk about the earth being a sphere, or germs causing disease? What about that infernal theory of gravity? Is that a potential snare?

In Christ-

Papias

It goes back to the verse I quoted... "Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.". Whether you believe the earth is round, flat, or a triangle really makes no difference. We know things in part now we are told. Based on that my advise is to take all knowledge with a grain of salt and invest your time and energy into grasping the word of God instead. Pray earnestly that you might be given the knowledge you need to live a useful life to the Lord. Anything else is worthless at best and a possible snare at worst.

 

[Hoghead1]

I gather you are saying, Roasthawg, that the Bible should take precedence over our experience, right? If so, sorry, I don't go for that at all. I don't think any book, Bible or otherwise, is really a substitute for direct, immediate experience. Books are of course vitally important and helpful, but I the end, its your experience that counts. Also, I feel studying history is important. Don't get me wrong. But it is also important to focus in on today. If you are going to try and go exclusively on Scripture , then your faith because a static, backward-looking affair.

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes, of course, Roasrthawg, many do. What I am curious about, however, is what is your evidence for such a claim. Why do you hold that Scripture is inerrant?

 

[roasthawg]

I gather you are saying, Roasthawg, that the Bible should take precedence over our experience, right? If so, sorry, I don't go for that at all. I don't think any book, Bible or otherwise, is really a substitute for direct, immediate experience. Books are of course vitally important and helpful, but I the end, its your experience that counts. Also, I feel studying history is important. Don't get me wrong. But it is also important to focus in on today. If you are going to try and go exclusively on Scripture , then your faith because a static, backward-looking affair.

I view the bible as the word of God so that's where I'm encouraging faith to be placed. And it's not so much our experience rather than our intellect that I feel we should guard against. We all struggle with doubt but in the end I have faith that when the resurrection comes and we know in full what we know now in part God's word will be vindicated.

The exact mechanics of these things are what we obsess on and that is where our present views and understanding of science can cause us to stray. Creation, the sun standing still for Joshua, Jesus's ascension into heaven, etc. U don't know the mechanics behind any of these events. I'm curious as to the explanations others come up with and I think about them myself yet in the end it
I believe it comes down to us knowing now only in part rather than in full. We will get our answers but in the meantime we must rely on faith. That is how things are... So pray for faith is the route to take imo.

 

[Hoghead1]

Be careful here, Roasthawg. You havve no idea what I do or do not know. I am very familiar with classical theism or the classical Christian model of God, for example. Although you may no realize it, many Christians and most laity view Scripture through the lens of classical theism.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

Personally I reject evolution without regard to the bible.
Consider, for instance, the muscles for the fingers.
To give us good grip strength the muscles are very big.
They will not fit in the fingers, so, somehow they mutated themselves into the arms.
Then, there are strings attached to the fingertips and go back to the arm muscles.
I just cannot accept somehow we mutated in such a way (10x, once for each finger)
That a string mutated somehow for each finger, snaked its way up the finger, across the hand, through the wrist, and attached itself to a muscle in the arm.
It just seems too fantastic for me to believe.
And there are many more examples.

That's nothing compared with the working of the eyes, living cells and the brain (watch one of Professor David Mentons lectures on the eye and you'll get a tiny idea of what I mean). To me it makes no sense at all that all this organised itself and makes much more sense that God made everything with His infinite power and wisdom. Our most complex systems are nothing compared to those of the creator and neither is our knowledge.