Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature

ThatRobGuy

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Of course we can. What else could it be?
The things I listed in my previous posts...

If you were trying to get certified for something, and I was your instructor (and said certification was a condition of your employment), the person verifying and/or notarizing it would probably like to be able to at least give it the base level of authentication...with the first step being "is this even a signature representing a name, or is it someone trying to pull a fast one". 99.9% of the population isn't going to be able to do that when looking at handwriting in a language that uses a completely different character set.


Let's put it into practice, you've just received two signed documents, with these two handwritten signatures...you need to verify that it is, indeed, a signature and not just some random thing someone put on the line.

1712235803446.png



I put it in an image format so that you can't easily copy and paste into google translate (since a notary or record keeper dealing with hand writing isn't going to have that luxury)

One is a name, one is a food... can you easily tell which is which? (or would you have to do something like find an interpreter, or find some sort of software where you can take a picture of writing, and it can extract the text, which could then be put into google translate -- which even that isn't always accurate)
 
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Larniavc

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The things I listed in my previous posts...

If you were trying to get certified for something, and I was your instructor (and said certification was a condition of your employment), the person verifying and/or notarizing it would probably like to be able to at least give it the base level of authentication...with the first step being "is this even a signature representing a name, or is it someone trying to pull a fast one". 99.9% of the population isn't going to be able to do that when looking at handwriting in a language that uses a completely different character set.


Let's put it into practice, you've just received two signed documents, with these two handwritten signatures...you need to verify that it is, indeed, a signature and not just some random thing someone put on the line.

View attachment 345232


I put it in an image format so that you can't easily copy and paste into google translate (since a notary or record keeper dealing with hand writing isn't going to have that luxury)

One is a name, one is a food... can you easily tell which is which? (or would you have to do something like find an interpreter, or find some sort of software where you can take a picture of writing, and it can extract the text, which could then be put into google translate -- which even that isn't always accurate)
So after you've taken the Heraklion effort to scan it with your phone and confirmed that the name on the certificate is forrealsy what reason is left for rejection? That's right: Racism. America's Achilles knee.
 
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Estrid

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It is sad that racism has to exist in 2024. Society should have progressed from the xenophobic days of the 1900s. As a Christian, and as a human, we should respect those from other culture. People should have every right to sign in any language. While printed names should be in the most commonly used language for a region, a signature can be in the local language of which the person is from. Maggie DeBoard should have been fired on the spot for her xenophobic comments.


For those who do not have a paywall blocker, here is a summary of the Washington Post article:

The article by Tom Jackman, published on April 3, 2024, reports on a dispute between Fairfax County and the Herndon town police department over a Chinese signature on law enforcement training certificates. Fairfax County Police Major Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American, signs the certificates in Chinese as a tradition. Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard objected to this practice and requested new certificates with English signatures for her officers. Fairfax County refused and instead notified Herndon that its trainees would no longer be welcome at the academy starting June 1, 2024.

The dispute led to a heated discussion between DeBoard and Fairfax Police Chief Kevin Davis at the graduation ceremony. DeBoard declined to comment on her reason for objecting to the signature, but her department has a significant Asian population of about 16%. Davis also declined to comment on the matter.

The Fairfax Police Department argued that they were making strides in diversity and inclusion by having majority minority recruit classes, which DeBoard's comments were deemed "unfortunate" and "not reflective of Fairfax County's commitment" to its One Fairfax policy.

Herndon Mayor Sheila Olem and Town Manager Bill Ashton declined to be interviewed, but town spokeswoman Anne E. Papa expressed hope that Herndon officers would continue working together with Fairfax County.

The article also mentions other police academies in the region and highlights DeBoard's background, including her efforts to reach out to non-White constituents and past controversies.

The National Asian Peace Officers Association praised Fairfax Police Chief Kevin Davis for defending Lee, while the Hamkae Center, a grass-roots nonprofit that organizes Asian Americans in Virginia for social, racial and economic justice, praised Fairfax's decision to exclude Herndon officers from future academy classes as a positive step towards respecting diversity.
I think one needn't assume racism.
A Greek or Russian signature would be as hard to
read.
Best to find the basis for objection.

Fwiw I did encounter some racism when I
lived in NYC. Not much, but a friend from
Beijing seemed to have reports of it at THE
same campus on a nearly daily basis.

In US law whatever you declare to be your
signature is your signature.

We will see how this turns out. I expect someone
is going to lose their job.
 
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Estrid

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In 2024, who looks at a piece of paper to verify that somebody actually completed a course? They call the issuing body to make sure it's legit.

As far as legibility goes, the article has a picture of the certificate with both signatures - I can't read the English one, either. The last name kind of looks like "Davis", but I'd have no idea what the first name was if it wasn't printed elsewhere in the article. I can't read my own signature.
Nobody can read their signature at the
store checkout.
 
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AlexB23

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I think one needn't assume racism.
A Greek or Russian signature would be as hard to
read.
Best to find the basis for objection.

Fwiw I did encounter some racism when I
lived in NYC. Not much, but a friend from
Beijing seemed to have reports of it at THE
same campus on a nearly daily basis.

In US law whatever you declare to be your
signature is your signature.

We will see how this turns out. I expect someone
is going to lose their job.
Well, with Russia and Ukraine going to war, people would make comments about that also. I think that the war is messed up, and both sides should stop.

Hopefully everything is going well with you, and that you and your friend do not encounter any more racism. Yeah, and hypothetically, one can sign their signature as a picture, such as what Kurt Vonnegut (the man who wrote Slaughterhouse 5, an anti-war sci-fi novel) did.

Source: The 17 Coolest Signatures Of Famous People Through History

1712238044047.png
 
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Estrid

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Well, with Russia and Ukraine going to war, people would make comments about that also. I think that the war is messed up, and both sides should stop.

Hopefully everything is going well with you, and that you and your friend do not encounter any more racism. Yeah, and hypothetically, one can sign their signature as a picture, such as what Kurt Vonnegut (the man who wrote Slaughterhouse 5, an anti-war sci-fi novel) did.

Source: The 17 Coolest Signatures Of Famous People Through History

View attachment 345235
Not hypothetical at all.

Racism ?
We all encounter people who interact in ways
we don't like.
I got beaten half to death, but it wasn't "racist".

I experience far more " -ism" back
here in HK than I did racism in the USA as an
unmarried / over 30 female of " extra petite"
dimensions.

Actually I got more favorable " racism" in the USA
than negative.

I kind of think the biggest racism prob. in the
USA is your obsession with it.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Roll that headline around for a bit, before diving in to the story. What could it possibly mean?

Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature

When 61 law enforcement trainees graduated last month from Fairfax County’s Criminal Justice Training Academy ... each received a certificate signed by the academy’s director, county police Maj. Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American.

Lee, whose given name is Lee Wai-Shun, signed the certificates in Chinese, as he typically does. Among those who received certificates March 7 were three new officers from the Herndon town police force — the first trainees from that department to attend the academy since Lee took command more than a year ago. When Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard noticed the Chinese signature shortly before the graduation ceremony, she was not pleased.

“This is not acceptable for my agency,” she told Lee in an email. “I don’t want our Herndon officers to receive these.”

Not only did Fairfax County refuse to issue new certificates as DeBoard requested, but a top Fairfax official has notified DeBoard that Herndon police trainees will no longer be welcome at the academy.
My full name is 29 letters. When I sign it, it’s a stylized first letter of my first name, a squiggle, a loop up roughly where a lowercase “h” would be, a squiggle, a space, a stylized upper letter, a long squiggle, and then I kind of trail off into a jumble of whatever as I get bored with the process and frustrated at how long my legal name is. When I signed my mortgage paperwork, the first signature looked very different than the last signature because I was literally over writing my name.

My name is unique, my first name you’ve likely not heard (or if you have, so rarely that it would stand out as deeply unique), my second name I’ve ever heard anybody else ever have, and my last name uses unique letters and is uncommon. My first name is not of American or European origin; it is roots are Middle Eastern. I frequently, and I mean at least weekly, am asked to spell my first name upon introduction because people aren’t sure they’ll say it right without me spelling it aloud.

Number of times I’ve been told to redo my signature on official or informal documents? Zero.

Number of times I’ve been told my signature is unsatisfactory? Zero.

Number of times I’ve been told the Middle Eastern spelling of my name needs to be anglicized? Zero.

Number of times the legality of my paperwork is questioned due to my signature? Zero.

My mother goes by her middle name, not her first name. On legal paperwork, she signs her name first initial, her full middle and last name. My father doesn’t sign anything close to his name. My best friend signs her name and adds a star to the end because she’s a former Disney face character and it’s a force of habit. Their answers to the above? Also zero.

So this lady, while she not be xenophobic, is certainly displaying xenophobic behavior by demanding a Chinese-American write the Anglicized version of his name because she won’t accept his signature.

First off, it’s not up to her to “accept” the validity of a signature on the document, the document is indisputably valid by government oversight bodies which moderate the program, its training, and their certification process. If the governing body that manages that agency accepts it, she has no business not accepting it.

Secondly, all three had the same signature, so clearly that’s the signature across all people completing the training. By requesting something different, she actually makes it harder to take the validity of the document at face value. It removes standardization and creates doubt when some people have one signature and others have a different one from the same graduating class.

Thirdly, having worked in the police department and coordinated this type of new officer training, their passing or failing was made known to her irrespective of the document and, should they change police departments, the validity of the training and their pass/fail status is verified through their hiring process, not the document. Sure, it may be presented with hiring paperwork, but it’s not presented in lieu of verification. The paperwork is largely commemorative, with the possible benefit of getting candidates transferring departments conditional hires pending verification.

Fourth, the only people in these programs are conditional hires for police departments who have already completed the hiring process, whose instatement to their role is conditional pending successful completion of the course. The department that hires them picks the academy, sends them there, and they return. It’s not like college, where you go, get a degree, then seek a job. The only way to be there is to be sent by a police department. So she is contesting the paperwork of officers she hired, sent to the school that her department chose, a school likely all the other officers went to, completed the training she selected, and returned. She knows the paperwork is valid simply because she would have been the one that sent them. These aren’t even officers transferring from another department showing this paperwork and her questioning it… They’re new officers she sent to the program. So why or how on earth would she think what they returned with could be invalid or foraged knowing that the only way they could be there to begin with was because she sent them? She knew they were going, she was notified they passed as she was the sending agency, so why would the certificates be unacceptable? She doesn’t even need the certificates, so it makes no sense she’d make a big deal out of the signature.

Finally, the issuing executive’s name is Lee. If we were making a case against forgery, why would she say to sign “Lee,” something which is easy to forge, vs. the Chinese spelling, which would be immeasurably harder to forge?

The whole “he could have written I want a hamburger in Chinese and I wouldn’t know” argument is nonsense. I could argue my squiggles in my 30-character long name actually was me saying “I do not accept” and my initials, but the fact is whatever you write in a signature line implies legality and consent through inferring. Lack of consent to the legality of the paperwork comes via a lack of signature or an outright declaration of disagreement. Anybody who watches Judge Judy can tell you that. A squiggle on a line for a signature is a signature unless it’s absent or clearly contested and acknowledged as contested. And the fact is there’s no reason to suppose the man wrote in Chinese that he wants a hamburger vs. his name on a signature line, nor would the document be less valid if that is what he wrote since he didn’t denote clearly and demonstrably his dissent. If I charge something on my credit card and sign on the signature line “I do not accept this charge” in French, the bank doesn’t refund my money because I said in French on the signature line I contest the charge. They say “it’s reasonable to assume that’s a signature” and the charge remains. Same applies here… There is no reason to assume he put his Five Guys order on this line instead of his signature, so it’s treated as a signature.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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So after you've taken the Heraklion effort to scan it with your phone and confirmed that the name on the certificate is forrealsy what reason is left for rejection? That's right: Racism. America's Achilles knee.

So, to recap then...if the standard you're setting is in fact an accurate method of assessment

Quebec
Japan
Finland
(and a dozen other countries)

...all have a racism problem then, correct?
(if the measuring stick for that is "we have an official language, and we want all official things to be done in that language")
 
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....
I kind of think the biggest racism prob. in the
USA is your obsession with it.
Legacy of race based slavery being written into law, and extreme recalcitrance at every step of the way as we tried to unwind it. And the racist murder and land theft integral to national expansion. Not to mention the absurd racism against many other people that had nothing to do with those two. It would be great if we could just re write some laws and its all over.

I admit that sometimes it feels like everything in media and culture is about race these days, and I do get tired of that. But so what. I'm not entitled to anything different.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Legacy of race based slavery being written into law, and extreme recalcitrance at every step of the way as we tried to unwind it. And the racist murder and land theft integral to national expansion. Not to mention the absurd racism against many other people that had nothing to do with those two. It would be great if we could just re write some laws and its all over.

I admit that sometimes it feels like everything in media and culture is about race these days, and I do get tired of that. But so what. I'm not entitled to anything different.
...but I think the person in question being accused of racism is entitled to not have that be the immediate assumption about them (especially given the circumstances). As immediately having local publications circulating that assertion around is tantamount to defamation if it ends up not being verifiable.

Per some other publications:
DeBoard, 60, made history in 2012 by becoming the first female police chief in Northern Virginia. She has reportedly actively engaged with non-White communities, participating in events like the “Justice for Black Lives” rally and advocating for immigrant communities to feel comfortable contacting the police.

If you hit the rewind button and look at DeBoard's other "headline making" endeavors, they're mostly positive

She led the state efforts to change laws so that if a bad cop was fired from one department, they couldn't be rehired at another.

And even per the Washington Post (and we know what their leanings are):
She has taken numerous steps to reach out to her non-White constituents, including attending a “Justice for Black Lives” rally after the death of George Floyd in 2020 and sending a letter to the immigrant community urging them to call police without fear of deportation.

The letter, in Spanish and English, was sent home with schoolchildren and posted throughout apartment complexes in the town.



The very fact that "I prefer English, so I want things to be done in English for these types of official documents" is immediately conflated with racial bigotry (based on no other details or information about the person), I think, highlights a certain double-standard with regards to perceptions about culture.

Often times, it seems like some of the attitudes from certain people on the left is "everyone's allowed to have cultural preferences...except for Americans."

In fact, I'm pretty confident that if the roles were reversed...say, if an American went to Japan (where they require Japanese to be used for many types of official business) and said "Nope, I'm doing this in English, the English language is part of my culture and heritage and you have to respect that", that American would likely be getting labelled as "entitled" or "arrogant"

The "if the roles were reversed" scenario is often a good litmus test that I think people need to consider.

For instance, if someone accusing "Steve" of some sort of -ism because of something he said to "Dave"... If the actions & roles are reversed, and they still find a way to come to the conclusion that "Steve's at fault", then it really has nothing to do with the action, and everything to do with them having some sort of vested interest in taking Dave's side over Steve no matter what. (usually to virtue signal)
 
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Tropical Wilds

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So, to recap then...if the standard you're setting is in fact an accurate method of assessment

Quebec
Japan
Finland
(and a dozen other countries)

...all have a racism problem then, correct?
(if the measuring stick for that is "we have an official language, and we want all official things to be done in that language")
Having an official language doesn’t preclude people writing their name on official documents in their native language as part of their signature.

I just signed a bunch of papers for a vacation in Japan and nobody, not even those who couldn’t speak a word of English, asked me to rewrite my name using Japanese kanji (though it should be pointed out Japan doesn’t have an official language). Because a signature is a signature, a personal expression of how one represents themselves on a document of varying legality, with varying degrees of legibility. The issuing of the signature is the legally binding action, not the appearance, structure, or legibility of the signature. Hence “sign here” and “print here” designations.

Donald Trump, James Dean, Walt Disney, John Dillinger, David Bowie, and Dick Clark all sign the “D” in their names totally differently. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t actually signing their name correctly or that their documents aren’t legally binding.

Like you get this:

IMG_6619.jpeg


Are you going to say “nice try, David Beckham, but that’s not valid because literally no letters in the English language look like that so this is worthless”? Of course not. Thats his signature. That’s not disputed. So if you ask for it, that’s what you get, regardless of the fact that despite being one of the most recognized men on the planet, his signature is incoherent and not at all resembling letters in any language. Nobody is going to say “but in Latin that might say ‘T-Rex are bad piano players’ so it needs to be redone…” They’ll say, “hey look, that’s what David Beckham writes on things that call for his signature.”
 
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AlexB23

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Not hypothetical at all.

Racism ?
We all encounter people who interact in ways
we don't like.
I got beaten half to death, but it wasn't "racist".

I experience far more " -ism" back
here in HK than I did racism in the USA as an
unmarried / over 30 female of " extra petite"
dimensions.

Actually I got more favorable " racism" in the USA
than negative.

I kind of think the biggest racism prob. in the
USA is your obsession with it.
What do you mean by "favorable racism"? If you got beaten, that is a hate crime most likely. We need to stand our ground against racism as a society. Tolerating racism is not the answer.
 
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Estrid

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Legacy of race based slavery being written into law, and extreme recalcitrance at every step of the way as we tried to unwind it. And the racist murder and land theft integral to national expansion. Not to mention the absurd racism against many other people that had nothing to do with those two. It would be great if we could just re write some laws and its all over.

I admit that sometimes it feels like everything in media and culture is about race these days, and I do get tired of that. But so what. I'm not entitled to anything different.
Yes and I should be going on about the Japanese
for what they did to my city, my family, in ww2.

I know my American history fairly well.

Probably better than 80% of Americans.

But looking across the water here, it's like
EVerything is interpreted as racism. Except for
Agw and alphabet soup "genders".

Not very much actually is.
 
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Estrid

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What do you mean by "favorable racism"? If you got beaten, that is a hate crime most likely. We need to stand our ground against racism as a society. Tolerating racism is not the answer.
That's not much of a response.

I said what happened to me wasnt racism.
I kind of like knew it was a crime at the time.

In no way did I advocate tolerance of racism.

Prejudice can be pro or con. Some think blonde
women are extra pretty. Others assumed I'd be a wh8z at math.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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The things I listed in my previous posts...

If you were trying to get certified for something, and I was your instructor (and said certification was a condition of your employment), the person verifying and/or notarizing it would probably like to be able to at least give it the base level of authentication...with the first step being "is this even a signature representing a name, or is it someone trying to pull a fast one". 99.9% of the population isn't going to be able to do that when looking at handwriting in a language that uses a completely different character set.

Let's put it into practice, you've just received two signed documents, with these two handwritten signatures...you need to verify that it is, indeed, a signature and not just some random thing someone put on the line.

View attachment 345232

It's worth pointing out that the examples you're using are western names translated into Chinese, and as such they're using multiple characters to try and sound like the name. Your pervious example of David Smith ends up mangled when translated into Mandarin - Dà wèi shǐmìsī - because there is no character for "David" or "Smith". Same with the above example which at least includes the surname "Li" - "李" - but mangles the first name. Plus it's backwards - should be surname first.

Normal Chinese names are three characters and a lot share one of about 10 surnames total.

As for the question about understanding the signature - it's a reasonable concern, but this is a certificate - he's not signing a bank cheque. I certainly can't read the name signed by the Vice chancellor on my degree and it's never caused me issues.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Yes and I should be going on about the Japanese
for what they did to my city, my family, in ww2.

I know my American history fairly well.

Probably better than 80% of Americans.

But looking across the water here, it's like
EVerything is interpreted as racism. Except for
Agw and alphabet soup "genders".

Not very much actually is.
If you think “everything” is interpreted as racism, but “not very much is,” you can’t honestly say you know US history well or better than 80% of Americans. And referring to an entire group of people as “alphabet soup” is a dismissive and inflammatory label that makes people’s point about the issues related to acceptance and treatment of minorities in the US. “Alphabet soup” is not a label that acknowledges the fundamental dignity people deserve.
 
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Estrid

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If you think “everything” is interpreted as racism, but “not very much is,” you can’t honestly say you know US history well or better than 80% of Americans. And referring to an entire group of people as “alphabet soup” is a dismissive and inflammatory label that makes people’s point about the issues related to acceptance and treatment of minorities in the US. “Alphabet soup” is not a label that acknowledges the fundamental dignity people deserve.
What- evs
 
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