Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature

[essentialsaltes]

Roll that headline around for a bit, before diving in to the story. What could it possibly mean?

Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature​

When 61 law enforcement trainees graduated last month from Fairfax County’s Criminal Justice Training Academy ... each received a certificate signed by the academy’s director, county police Maj. Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American.

Lee, whose given name is Lee Wai-Shun, signed the certificates in Chinese, as he typically does. Among those who received certificates March 7 were three new officers from the Herndon town police force — the first trainees from that department to attend the academy since Lee took command more than a year ago. When Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard noticed the Chinese signature shortly before the graduation ceremony, she was not pleased.

“This is not acceptable for my agency,” she told Lee in an email. “I don’t want our Herndon officers to receive these.”

Not only did Fairfax County refuse to issue new certificates as DeBoard requested, but a top Fairfax official has notified DeBoard that Herndon police trainees will no longer be welcome at the academy.

 

[AlexB23]

Roll that headline around for a bit, before diving in to the story. What could it possibly mean?

Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature​

When 61 law enforcement trainees graduated last month from Fairfax County’s Criminal Justice Training Academy ... each received a certificate signed by the academy’s director, county police Maj. Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American.

Lee, whose given name is Lee Wai-Shun, signed the certificates in Chinese, as he typically does. Among those who received certificates March 7 were three new officers from the Herndon town police force — the first trainees from that department to attend the academy since Lee took command more than a year ago. When Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard noticed the Chinese signature shortly before the graduation ceremony, she was not pleased.

“This is not acceptable for my agency,” she told Lee in an email. “I don’t want our Herndon officers to receive these.”

Not only did Fairfax County refuse to issue new certificates as DeBoard requested, but a top Fairfax official has notified DeBoard that Herndon police trainees will no longer be welcome at the academy.

It is sad that racism has to exist in 2024. Society should have progressed from the xenophobic days of the 1900s. As a Christian, and as a human, we should respect those from other culture. People should have every right to sign in any language. While printed names should be in the most commonly used language for a region, a signature can be in the local language of which the person is from. Maggie DeBoard should have been fired on the spot for her xenophobic comments.


For those who do not have a paywall blocker, here is a summary of the Washington Post article:

The article by Tom Jackman, published on April 3, 2024, reports on a dispute between Fairfax County and the Herndon town police department over a Chinese signature on law enforcement training certificates. Fairfax County Police Major Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American, signs the certificates in Chinese as a tradition. Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard objected to this practice and requested new certificates with English signatures for her officers. Fairfax County refused and instead notified Herndon that its trainees would no longer be welcome at the academy starting June 1, 2024.

The dispute led to a heated discussion between DeBoard and Fairfax Police Chief Kevin Davis at the graduation ceremony. DeBoard declined to comment on her reason for objecting to the signature, but her department has a significant Asian population of about 16%. Davis also declined to comment on the matter.

The Fairfax Police Department argued that they were making strides in diversity and inclusion by having majority minority recruit classes, which DeBoard's comments were deemed "unfortunate" and "not reflective of Fairfax County's commitment" to its One Fairfax policy.

Herndon Mayor Sheila Olem and Town Manager Bill Ashton declined to be interviewed, but town spokeswoman Anne E. Papa expressed hope that Herndon officers would continue working together with Fairfax County.

The article also mentions other police academies in the region and highlights DeBoard's background, including her efforts to reach out to non-White constituents and past controversies.

The National Asian Peace Officers Association praised Fairfax Police Chief Kevin Davis for defending Lee, while the Hamkae Center, a grass-roots nonprofit that organizes Asian Americans in Virginia for social, racial and economic justice, praised Fairfax's decision to exclude Herndon officers from future academy classes as a positive step towards respecting diversity.

 

[Hank77]

Wow, in my view this is a tricky one. I'll have to think about it.

 

[durangodawood]

In older days did, say, Italian immigrants do their signature in Italian?

 

[Hank77]

In older days did, say, Italian immigrants do their signature in Italian?

Fairfax County Police Major Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American, signs the certificates in Chinese as a tradition.

What would Salvatore look like in Italian? Salvatore. (21 letters of the same 26 letter alphabet used in English.

What would Putin look like in Russian? Путин.
What would Wilson Lee look like in Chinese? ???

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Can anyone jump to the conclusion that racism was the motivating factor in this without more details?

Seems like that's the angle that some are wanting to lean into, but there are some other valid reasons why they may prefer certain certificates/documents to be signed in a written language that involves using the same character set as the prevailing language of the region.

This article provides a few additional details (I wasn't able to see the full Wapo article, so perhaps some of it is a repeat)

Virginia Police Academy Signs Graduation Documents in Chinese Despite Law Designating English as Official Language - Tennessee Star

Police in Fairfax County are reportedly refusing a request by Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard to reissue ceremonial police academy graduation documents after they were signed in Chinese. English was declared the "official language of the Commonwealth" in 1996.

tennesseestar.com

It sounds like Virginia has had English designated as their "official language" since 1996. (and their wording in the law is a tad on the clumsy side -- ironic given what it's meant to accomplish).

Familiarity would be the big one... Anyone looking to validate/verify the signatures are probably going to have a tougher time doing so if "everyone sign it whichever written language you want" expanded to more than just one person.

The article above even mentions that Notaries are advised to avoid dealing in documents that have been written or signed in another language due to the fact that verification and record keeping can be trickier.

It'd even be tough to tell what is and isn't a real name/signature.

Anyone with English proficiency knows the difference between
"David Smith"
vs
"I like to eat cheeseburgers"
...in terms of which one is a real name/signature vs. which one needs a little extra scrutiny

For people who aren't familiar with Chinese character set, is your average notary or record keeper going to be able to look at these and know which one is a real name and which one isn't?
"大衛史密斯"
vs
"我喜歡起司漢堡"

(they'd probably even have a tough time trying to figure out how to bring up the Chinese character set keyboard and typing it in from a hand signed doc to leverage google translate even if they wanted to)

 

[iluvatar5150]

Can anyone jump to the conclusion that racism was the motivating factor in this without more details?

Seems like that's the angle that some are wanting to lean into, but there are some other valid reasons why they may prefer certain certificates/documents to be signed in a written language that involves using the same character set as the prevailing language of the region.

This article provides a few additional details (I wasn't able to see the full Wapo article, so perhaps some of it is a repeat)

Virginia Police Academy Signs Graduation Documents in Chinese Despite Law Designating English as Official Language - Tennessee Star

Police in Fairfax County are reportedly refusing a request by Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard to reissue ceremonial police academy graduation documents after they were signed in Chinese. English was declared the "official language of the Commonwealth" in 1996.

tennesseestar.com

It sounds like Virginia has had English designated as their "official language" since 1996. (and their wording in the law is a tad on the clumsy side -- ironic given what it's meant to accomplish).

Familiarity would be the big one... Anyone looking to validate/verify the signatures are probably going to have a tougher time doing so if "everyone sign it whichever written language you want" expanded to more than just one person.

The article above even mentions that Notaries are advised to avoid dealing in documents that have been written or signed in another language due to the fact that verification and record keeping can be trickier.

It'd even be tough to tell what is and isn't a real name/signature.

Anyone with English proficiency knows the difference between
"David Smith"
vs
"I like to eat cheeseburgers"
...in terms of which one is a real name/signature vs. which one needs a little extra scrutiny

For people who aren't familiar with Chinese character set, is your average notary or record keeper going to be able to look at these and know which one is a real name and which one isn't?
"大衛史密斯"
vs
"我喜歡起司漢堡"

(they'd probably even have a tough time trying to figure out how to bring up the Chinese character set keyboard and typing it in from a hand signed doc to leverage google translate even if they wanted to)

In 2024, who looks at a piece of paper to verify that somebody actually completed a course? They call the issuing body to make sure it's legit.

As far as legibility goes, the article has a picture of the certificate with both signatures - I can't read the English one, either. The last name kind of looks like "Davis", but I'd have no idea what the first name was if it wasn't printed elsewhere in the article. I can't read my own signature.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

In 2024, who looks at a piece of paper to verify that somebody actually completed a course? They call the issuing body to make sure it's legit.

As far as legibility goes, the article has a picture of the certificate with both signatures - I can't read the English one, either. The last name kind of looks like "Davis", but I'd have no idea what the first name was if it wasn't printed elsewhere in the article. I can't read my own signature.

Actually you'd be surprised...

Here in Ohio (granted, this is going back 12 years ago), when I got my CCW permit, the certificates of completion where what you took to the county sheriff's office to prove that you completed the state mandated written and pistol proficiency courses/tests.


And as far as what Virginia's doing, having an "official language" that they expect government-related business to be conducted in isn't unique...nor is it even the most strict version.

Quebec actually has much stricter rules (especially in certain cities) with regards to having a "Francophile" culture.

Language Laws and Doing Business in Quebec | Éducaloi

The Charter of the French Language makes French the usual language of business in Quebec. Any person, company or organization that provides products or services in Quebec, whether for profit or not for profit, has to respect the rules in the Charter or risk being fined and given other penalties...

educaloi.qc.ca

Theirs even extends beyond government/public sector related matters and applies to the private sector. Despite a large number of their citizens being proficient in both French and English, you can rack up hefty fines for trying to do things in English (or another non-French language) even as a private business owner.

Quebec's rules on the matter go way beyond the threshold what a reasonable person would see as excessive... yet, nobody immediately assumes racist motivations for them wanting to strictly have their preferred language be the predominate recognized one. People assume some other things about Quebec (that are also not flattering) as a result of these kinds of rules, but racism isn't one of them.

 

[AlexB23]

Can anyone jump to the conclusion that racism was the motivating factor in this without more details?

Seems like that's the angle that some are wanting to lean into, but there are some other valid reasons why they may prefer certain certificates/documents to be signed in a written language that involves using the same character set as the prevailing language of the region.

This article provides a few additional details (I wasn't able to see the full Wapo article, so perhaps some of it is a repeat)

Virginia Police Academy Signs Graduation Documents in Chinese Despite Law Designating English as Official Language - Tennessee Star

Police in Fairfax County are reportedly refusing a request by Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard to reissue ceremonial police academy graduation documents after they were signed in Chinese. English was declared the "official language of the Commonwealth" in 1996.

tennesseestar.com

It sounds like Virginia has had English designated as their "official language" since 1996. (and their wording in the law is a tad on the clumsy side -- ironic given what it's meant to accomplish).

Familiarity would be the big one... Anyone looking to validate/verify the signatures are probably going to have a tougher time doing so if "everyone sign it whichever written language you want" expanded to more than just one person.

The article above even mentions that Notaries are advised to avoid dealing in documents that have been written or signed in another language due to the fact that verification and record keeping can be trickier.

It'd even be tough to tell what is and isn't a real name/signature.

Anyone with English proficiency knows the difference between
"David Smith"
vs
"I like to eat cheeseburgers"
...in terms of which one is a real name/signature vs. which one needs a little extra scrutiny

For people who aren't familiar with Chinese character set, is your average notary or record keeper going to be able to look at these and know which one is a real name and which one isn't?
"大衛史密斯"
vs
"我喜歡起司漢堡"

(they'd probably even have a tough time trying to figure out how to bring up the Chinese character set keyboard and typing it in from a hand signed doc to leverage google translate even if they wanted to)

Well, typically documents have both a printed name, and a signature. So, if the printed name is in English, and the signature is in Chinese, then, it should be OK. We need to see the certificates, in order to determine if Maj. Wilson Lee did print his English name on the paper certificates.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Well, typically documents have both a printed name, and a signature. So, if the printed name is in English, and the signature is in Chinese, then, it should be OK. We need to see the certificates, in order to determine if Maj. Wilson Lee did print his English name on the paper certificates.

The article in the OP contains an image of the certificate. The names are not printed.

 

[AlexB23]

The article in the OP contains an image of the certificate. The names are not printed.

Thanks for clarification, but the image doesn't show the whole paper, what is on the other side?

 

[Larniavc]

Roll that headline around for a bit, before diving in to the story. What could it possibly mean?

Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature​

When 61 law enforcement trainees graduated last month from Fairfax County’s Criminal Justice Training Academy ... each received a certificate signed by the academy’s director, county police Maj. Wilson Lee, who is Chinese American.

Lee, whose given name is Lee Wai-Shun, signed the certificates in Chinese, as he typically does. Among those who received certificates March 7 were three new officers from the Herndon town police force — the first trainees from that department to attend the academy since Lee took command more than a year ago. When Herndon Police Chief Maggie DeBoard noticed the Chinese signature shortly before the graduation ceremony, she was not pleased.

“This is not acceptable for my agency,” she told Lee in an email. “I don’t want our Herndon officers to receive these.”

Not only did Fairfax County refuse to issue new certificates as DeBoard requested, but a top Fairfax official has notified DeBoard that Herndon police trainees will no longer be welcome at the academy.

Who could defend this baffling example of racism?

 

[AlexB23]

Who could defend this baffling example of racism?

I have no idea. There are a lot of racists in the US sadly.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well, typically documents have both a printed name, and a signature. So, if the printed name is in English, and the signature is in Chinese, then, it should be OK. We need to see the certificates, in order to determine if Maj. Wilson Lee did print his English name on the paper certificates.

The article in the OP contains an image of the certificate. The names are not printed.

Unfortunately, my "paywall bypass trick" no longer works...I'll have to find a new one...but based on a related image search, it looks like this is what was on it

But even if the name beneath was printed in English, the challenge I mentioned earlier would still be worth consideration.

If the line beneath said the person's name, and the signature line had this on it...

我弄髒了褲子

Is your average American notary or record keeper going to know whether or not that's a legitimate signature? (especially if it's in someone's handwriting which could be harder to decipher than perfectly printed characters on a computer)

Obviously this conversation has racial implications (as many conversations do these days), and as soon as someone says "no, we want English-only on XYZ", people jump to some conclusions about the situation....


But at it's core, is the desire to have a common language or officially recognized languages "racist"? If so, then there's a lot of countries that are violating that unwritten law. For instance, if I wanted to become a citizen of Finland (a quite progressive country, far more than the US), one of their requirements is that official business is conducted in Finnish, and you have to be submit a Finnish language proficiency certificate.

The ability to communicate with each other in a commonly understood modality is paramount for a society.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Who could defend this baffling example of racism?

Without knowing all the details, we can't jump to the conclusion of racism.

Calling is a "baffling example of racism" is an exaggeration to say the least.

There have been several posts in here explaining why one may want official documents to be signed in the officially recognized language of the locality in which they're been issued.


If you give me a document to sign


____________________________
Rob WhatsHisName

And I put this on the line:

笑出声来他们上当了我不同意

Are the majority of people going to be able to decipher that and key it in (from handwriting) to know if that's a legitimate signature?

A common language is the base level of cohesiveness a society needs to have...if you can't communicate, you can't function.

And like I mentioned before, if people are looking to bash a locality for this type of thing, start with Quebec, Canada. If this academy instructor had done this up there, he'd be getting a $3000 fine (per day) until he came into compliance with their "charter of the French language" rules.

 

[AlexB23]

Unfortunately, my "paywall bypass trick" no longer works...I'll have to find a new one...but based on a related image search, it looks like this is what was on it

View attachment 345218


But even if the name beneath was printed in English, the challenge I mentioned earlier would still be worth consideration.

If the line beneath said the person's name, and the signature line had this on it...

我弄髒了褲子

Is your average American notary or record keeper going to know whether or not that's a legitimate signature? (especially if it's in someone's handwriting which could be harder to decipher than perfectly printed characters on a computer)

Obviously this conversation has racial implications (as many conversations do these days), and as soon as someone says "no, we want English-only on XYZ", people jump to some conclusions about the situation....


But at it's core, is the desire to have a common language or officially recognized languages "racist"? If so, then there's a lot of countries that are violating that unwritten law. For instance, if I wanted to become a citizen of Finland (a quite progressive country, far more than the US), one of their requirements is that official business is conducted in Finnish, and you have to be submit a Finnish language proficiency certificate.

The ability to communicate with each other in a commonly understood modality is paramount for a society.

Yeah, but what is on the other side of the paper? I feel that something is missing, as the image appears to be cropped. Now, with AI and OCR (optical character recognition), it is possible to analyze the signatures and even potentially translate the signatures.

 

[Hank77]

Who could defend this baffling example of racism?

I can defend her point of view and I'm not racist against Chinese people.
I really don't think she is being racist either.

My two half-Chinese grandchildren and their mother know I'm not racist.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I can defend her point of view and I'm not racist against Chinese people.

Would you care to try?

 

[Hank77]

Would you care to try?

Look at the posts written by ThatRobGuy where I agreed/liked with his arguments.

 

[Larniavc]

Without knowing all the details, we can't jump to the conclusion of racism.

Of course we can. What else could it be?