Extra Biblical Writings

[ClementofRome]

I really like St Ignatius's writings. His willingness to die for the Lord is inspiring.

There is a real sense of persecution and impending martyrdom in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement even begins his letter by apologizing for being late in writing because of the intense persecution that the Roman church was receiving.

MARTYRDOM....now that is not something too many 21st century Christians have on their mind, now is it?

 

[mister_p]

There was one point where some had to write a little correctively. It is hard to imagine in our day that people were getting a little too eager to seek matyrdom!

What is martyrdom to the modern mind? Does it have to be death in the western consciousness? Can we still be a martyr without losing our lives?

 

[ClementofRome]

There was one point where some had to write a little correctively. It is hard to imagine in our day that people were getting a little too eager to seek matyrdom!

What is martyrdom to the modern mind? Does it have to be death in the western consciousness? Can we still be a martyr without losing our lives?

I think that martyrdom by definition would be death for one's beliefs. However, I could see a symbolic or figurative martyrdom in certain circumstances. Certainly, Christians face tribulation and persecution, and I guess that intense tribulation up to the point of death still, technically, is not martyrdom.

On the other hand, the treatment of Polycarp is considered part and parcel of his martyrdom.

 

[mister_p]

What I was thinking was that the idea of sacrifice for your beliefs. It is unlikely, at the moment at least, that Christians will be killed in most western nations simply for that. But do we avoid even that as our friends will "matyr" us or our work colleagues.

We have lost that determination to face up to the world for our Redeemer. Make sense?

 

[ClementofRome]

What I was thinking was that the idea of sacrifice for your beliefs. It is unlikely, at the moment at least, that Christians will be killed in most western nations simply for that. But do we avoid even that as our friends will "matyr" us or our work colleagues.

We have lost that determination to face up to the world for our Redeemer. Make sense?

I am in complete agreement and I, for one, am the least in the Kingdom.

Funny story....I used to run with a pretty wild bunch 20-25 years ago. In the late 80s I began to take my Christianity much more seriously. I went to Seminary and graduated....now am a Professor of Religion at a Christain college. When I now run into a certain fellow that I knew way back then, he cannot simply handle the fact that i do not run with that crowd any longer or praticipate in the things that he still participates in.....so he has to make fun of the situation in order to cope. He refers to me as "Father" (though I am not Catholic nor ordained)....asks how God is, and other such comments.

I am certainly not uncomforable seeing him, but he clearly is uncomfortable seeing me. Now I would not call his actions a "martyring" of myself, but I do get your point. A sacrifice for the faith. Good point.

 

[Starstreak M86]

An interesting point:

It has been argued that the gifts of the Spirit ceased when the last NT book was written, around the end of the 100's. The Didache, talks about the gifts still operating at least when it was written, 150 or so (eg, Chapter 11 and prophets).

It is more a summary document, than anything, really.

Mister_P,
How would we know that?

So then, according to that premise, it impossible to perform miracles today, because the Holy Spirit left the world (that view is not well supported by Scripture; Christ said that we shall perform miracles until the Rapture).

Aren't we being legalistic by letting doctrines and creeds guide us rather than God? I let God decide to me what is authentic Scripture, not church fathers and other falliable human leaders (not all church fathers agreed, and if alive today, the church fathers would not be Protestants).

 

[ClementofRome]

Mister_P,
How would we know that?

So then, according to that premise, it impossible to perform miracles today, because the Holy Spirit left the world (that view is not well supported by Scripture; Christ said that we shall perform miracles until the Rapture).

Aren't we being legalistic by letting doctrines and creeds guide us rather than God? I let God decide to me what is authentic Scripture, not church fathers and other falliable human leaders (not all church fathers agreed, and if alive today, the church fathers would not be Protestants).

I think that you are missing the point of the discussion, but I will let mister_p answer your inquiry.

 

[Starstreak M86]

I think that you are missing the point of the discussion, but I will let mister_p answer your inquiry.

Clement of Rome,
I might be.

I was just saying that we should value God's opinion over the opinion of the church fathers (who didn't even unanimously agree on what should be in the Bible). We should recognize that people decided what books should be in the Bible, not God Himself (although I have absolutely no problem with what is already in the KJV Bible, I just believe that there are other non-Canonical books that have equal or near-equal importance).

Just like alot of Christians quote the Book of Enoch, which is not even a Canonical book!

 

[ClementofRome]

Clement of Rome,
I might be.

I was just saying that we should value God's opinion over the opinion of the church fathers (who didn't even unanimously agree on what should be in the Bible). We should recognize that people decided what books should be in the Bible, not God Himself (although I have absolutely no problem with what is already in the KJV Bible, I just believe that there are other non-Canonical books that have equal or near-equal importance).

Just like alot of Christians quote the Book of Enoch, which is not even a Canonical book!

Thanks M86... you are correct that we (I) value scripture as primary. AND, that the Holy Spirit guides toward truth. What we were discussing is how the very earliest fathers (post NT) can shed light (and though we had not gotten this far yet, even from time to time darkness) on particular points of Christian belief/doctrine.

Again, I will not speak for mister_p, but our discussion progressed from a discussion of the Didache to the general dating of the Didache to the importance of the early dating of the Apostolic Fathers to a discussion of martyrdom. YES, we were all over the place.

Bless you for being intersted enough to jump in!