Embracing New Covenant Theology as Your Only Means of Salvation

[Clare73]

Good question, MWood. There are actually two covenants of God called variously, the "new Covenant." The first one is found in Jeremiah 31:31. It is an unconditional promise God makes with the House of Israel exclusively to place the Law of Moses within their hearts at the time Messiah reigns over the earth from Jerusalem, so that they will never forsake it again. It is called "the second" covenant at Hebrews 8:7, with the original Law of Moses Covenant being called "that first covenant."

The second "New Covenant" is first found at Luke 22:20, where Jesus said, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." This new covenant is a distinct, wholly different covenant from the Jeremiah new covenant,

That is contrary to NT teaching.

The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 refers to the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31.

because according to Paul it devolves to all the nations, not just the House of Israel,

It devolved to all the nations because, and only after, Israel rejected their Messiah whose blood ratified that New Covenant of both Jeremiah 31 and Luke 22.
It is still one and the same covenant of Jeremiah 31 and Luke 22, ratified in the shed blood of the Messiah, now offered to the Gentiles because of Israel's rejection of it.

and in fact, was first called a covenant and ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses Covenant

The Abrahamic covenant was ratified with the blood of animals, as was the Old (Mosaic) Covenant, while
the New Covenant was ratified with the blood of the Messiah.

that the Jeremiah 31 covenant replaces at the time of the kingdom on earth.
Distinguishing between the two is pretty critical to understanding the New Covenant as it relates to the topic of this thread.

There are not two "new" covenants.

The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 is the new covenant of Jeremiah 31.
They are one and the same covenant, written on hearts of flesh rather than tablets of stone.

 

[JLB777]

This new covenant is a distinct, wholly different covenant from the Jeremiah new covenant, because according to Paul it devolves to all the nations, not just the House of Israel, and in fact, was first called a covenant and ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses

If you understand that “new” means “renewed” or “refreshed” then you know the new covenant has it’s origin in the Abrahamic Covenant; because it was the Lord Jesus who made covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

Abraham was a gentile, and was called the father of many nations, which is a direct reference to Gentiles.


The New Covenant was presented to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.


The New Covenant, as spoken by Jeremiah does not exclude Gentiles, but says the House of Israel, which by definition means all who are “in Christ” as it is written, — And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Romans 11:25-27

Again


For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
Romans 9:6


and again


I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:6





JLB

 

[Jeffrey A]

I wrote:

This new covenant is a distinct, wholly different covenant from the Jeremiah new covenant, because according to Paul it devolves to all the nations, not just the House of Israel

That is contrary to NT teaching.

No, it is not.

The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 refers to the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31.

No, it does not, according to Paul. The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 refers to a covenant ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before even the first Law Covenant God made with Moses, according to Paul at Galatians 3:17 -- "The Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise."

But the Covenant of Luke 22:20 IS that same covenant God made with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant, and therefore, before the new covenant of Jeremiah 31, which merely replaces the Law Covenant for Israel at the time of the earthly reign of Messiah at his return to earth.

It devolved to all the nations because, and only after, Israel rejected their Messiah whose blood ratified that New Covenant of both Jeremiah 31 and Luke 22. It is still one and the same covenant of Jeremiah 31 and Luke 22, ratified in the shed blood of the Messiah, now offered to the Gentiles because of Israel's rejection of it.

That statement is not true. See, this is the huge problem, and why we keep having these debates. Folks just don't understand what constitutes a covenant in the bible. God names the party to whom the covenant applies and devolves, and no one else has the right to claim that covenant. They also don't understand that, while the leadership of Israel may have rejected Messiah, God Himself will NEVER reject Israel: "For Zion's sake ... and for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness... It will no longer be said to you, 'Forsaken,' nor to your land will it any longer be said, 'Desolate'; But you will be called, 'My delight is in her,' and your land, 'Married'; for the Lord delights in you, and to Him your land will be married... (Your) watchmen (will) give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm, 'I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies; nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored' ... And you will be called, 'Sought out, a city not forsaken.'" Isaiah 62:1-12. This happens during the coming kingdom reign of Messiah on earth.

The Abrahamic covenant was ratified with the blood of animals, as was the Old (Mosaic) Covenant, while the New Covenant was ratified with the blood of the Messiah.

This is true, for as the writer of Hebrews wrote: "Even the first covenant [the Law of Moses Covenant] was not inaugurated without blood," Hebrews 9:18. This is one of the criteria of what constitutes a Covenant of God -- it must be "inaugurated" in blood. Executed -- one might say, signed -- in blood. Each of the seven covenants of God was inaugurated by the shedding of blood -- a death, a sacrifice, of either men or animals.

There are not two "new" covenants.

There are seven covenants in the bible. They are "called" a covenant, they are made with a named party, the party to which it devolves is named, the promises and conditions are clearly spelled out, the ratification and term are defined, the inauguration in blood is recognizable, and each has its own sign of the covenant. When one discerns and sets these criteria for each covenant, one will see that there are indeed two covenants that are distinguishable from each other, but are each at some point in the narrative of Scripture called "new." That does not make them the same covenant.

One is to be made with the House of Israel in the future, and the other was made with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant with Moses and Israel was made, and it devolves to all the peoples of every nation, not just Israel (which didn't even exist yet at the time it was ratified).

The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 is the new covenant of Jeremiah 31.

Well see, you can keep saying that, but clearly they are not the same. The Luke 22:20 new covenant is the one ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant, devolving to all the nations by name, while the Jeremiah 31 new covenant will be ratified by God with the House of Israel exclusively in the future when Messiah returns to establish his kingdom on earth after the judgment of the Day of the Lord.

They are one and the same covenant, written on hearts of flesh rather than tablets of stone.

Well, see, you keep saying that. But clearly Scripture opposes that belief.

 

[Clare73]

If you understand that “new” means “renewed” or “refreshed”

No. . .the Greek words for "new" and "renewed" are not the same and do not have the same meaning.

then you know the new covenant has it’s origin in the Abrahamic Covenant; because
it was the Lord Jesus who made covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

Not stated in Scripture.

That is personal opinion presented nowhere in Scripture, created for the sake of one's theology.

 

[Clare73]

I wrote:

No, it is not.
No, it does not, according to Paul.

Not according to your misunderstanding of Paul in the light of the whole NT.

The New Covenant of Luke 22:20 refers to a covenant ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before even the first Law Covenant God made with Moses, according to Paul at Galatians 3:17 -- "The Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise."

But the Covenant of Luke 22:20 IS that same covenant God made with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant, and therefore, before the new covenant of Jeremiah 31, which merely replaces the Law Covenant for Israel at the time of the earthly reign of Messiah at his return to earth.

That statement is not true. See, this is the huge problem, and why we keep having these debates. Folks just don't understand what constitutes a covenant in the bible. God names the party to whom the covenant applies and devolves, and no one else has the right to claim that covenant. They also don't understand that, while the leadership of Israel may have rejected Messiah, God Himself will NEVER reject Israel: "For Zion's sake ... and for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness... It will no longer be said to you, 'Forsaken,' nor to your land will it any longer be said, 'Desolate'; But you will be called, 'My delight is in her,' and your land, 'Married'; for the Lord delights in you, and to Him your land will be married... (Your) watchmen (will) give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm, 'I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies; nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored' ... And you will be called, 'Sought out, a city not forsaken.'" Isaiah 62:1-12. This happens during the coming kingdom reign of Messiah on earth.

This is true, for as the writer of Hebrews wrote: "Even the first covenant [the Law of Moses Covenant] was not inaugurated without blood," Hebrews 9:18. This is one of the criteria of what constitutes a Covenant of God -- it must be "inaugurated" in blood. Executed -- one might say, signed -- in blood. Each of the seven covenants of God was inaugurated by the shedding of blood -- a death, a sacrifice, of either men or animals.

There are seven covenants in the bible. They are "called" a covenant, they are made with a named party, the party to which it devolves is named, the promises and conditions are clearly spelled out, the ratification and term are defined, the inauguration in blood is recognizable, and each has its own sign of the covenant. When one discerns and sets these criteria for each covenant, one will see that there are indeed two covenants that are distinguishable from each other, but are each at some point in the narrative of Scripture called "new." That does not make them the same covenant.

One is to be made with the House of Israel in the future, and the other was made with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant with Moses and Israel was made, and it devolves to all the peoples of every nation, not just Israel (which didn't even exist yet at the time it was ratified).

Well see, you can keep saying that, but clearly they are not the same. The Luke 22:20 new covenant is the one ratified by God with Abraham 430 years before even the Law Covenant, devolving to all the nations by name, while the Jeremiah 31 new covenant will be ratified by God with the House of Israel exclusively in the future when Messiah returns to establish his kingdom on earth after the judgment of the Day of the Lord.

Well, see, you keep saying that. But clearly Scripture opposes that belief.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Jeffrey A]

If you understand that “new” means “renewed” or “refreshed” then you know the new covenant has it’s origin in the Abrahamic Covenant; because it was the Lord Jesus who made covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

Yes, so true! God made two covenants with Abraham! One that devolved exclusively to his flesh descendants through Isaac and then Jacob, granting them the Land, and one that devolved to the whole world, granting them as yet undefined blessings.

Abraham was a gentile, and was called the father of many nations, which is a direct reference to Gentiles.

Yes! Very good! So also acknowledges Paul in Romans 4.

The New Covenant was presented to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.

Yes it was, as we read in the gospels.

The New Covenant, as spoken by Jeremiah does not exclude Gentiles, but says the House of Israel, which by definition means all who are “in Christ” as it is written, — And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Whoopsie, see, now you have confused spiritual Israel with physical Israel. Physical Israel is to be a picture on earth of Spiritual Israel in heaven (that "Israel of God" from Galatians 6:16). Physical Israel is to obey the temporal Law of Moses, while Spiritual Israel (as accounted so in heaven) is to obey the Law of Christ. The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is made with physical Israel at the time of the kingdom of Messiah on earth, when they will never again forsake the Law of Moses, because God places that law within their hearts.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Romans 11:25-27

Beautiful passage! God promising to save Israel from the destruction of the great tribulation, when Messiah returns to earth to redeem them and set up his kingdom on earth, ruling from a restored Jerusalem!

Again For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Romans 9:6

Correct. Ishmael, though he was a child of Abraham, was excluded from the Land Covenant, because that covenant only devolved to Isaac. Then, Esau was excluded, even though he was a grandchild of Abraham, because the covenant only devolved to Jacob and his children exclusively. The point is, one must be "of the promise" -- that is, a named recipient of the covenant. In this passage in Romans 9, we may be "of Israel" in a spiritual sense because we join Spiritual Israel as accounted in heaven through the Covenant made with Abraham that he would be the "Father of a Multitude of Nations", in that all who have the "faith of Abraham" are joined into that Covenant of Blessing on All Nations through Abraham's Seed Heir -- revealed to be Jesus the Messiah. That is the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood of Luke 22:20, and it is the same exact Covenant Paul described in Galatians 3:17 as being ratified by God 430 years before even the Law Covenant.

and again I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:6 JLB

Yes! So beautiful! The Covenant of Blessing Come to the Multitude of Nations Through Abraham's Seed Heir, further revealed by the Prophet Isaiah to be "My Servant" "David" (i.e., the Son of David -- Jesus), who will be a "Witness to the peoples, a Leader and Commander for the (nations)" Isaiah 55:4.

The Covenant of Genesis 17:4,5, Isaiah 42:6 and Luke 22:20.

They are one and the same Covenant, the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Not according to your misunderstanding of Paul in the light of the whole NT.

Hm. Well, let us determine who misunderstands Paul then. Can you at least name the covenants found in the bible? Let's just start with the ones that are 'called' a covenant, to keep things simple.

 

[Clare73]

Hm. Well, let us determine who misunderstands Paul then. Can you at least name the covenants found in the bible? Let's just start with the ones that are 'called' a covenant, to keep things simple.

Yes, I can. . .but not interested in pursuing it. . .thanks anyway.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Yes, I can. . .but not interested in pursuing it. . .thanks anyway.

May I do it for you then? ("Why yes, please do!" "Ah! Why thank you! So kind!")

1. Covenant with Noah - Promise: No more flood; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Death of all the Wicked; Sign: Rainbow; To Whom Devolves: All the inhabitants of earth

2. Covenant with Abram - Promise: Named Descendants get the Land; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Animals cut in two; Sign: Circumcision; To Whom Devolves: Children of Israel

3. Covenant with Moses - Promise: Obey the Law get blessings, disobey get curses; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Animal blood sprinkled on Book and People; Sign: Sabbaths; To Whom Devolves: All the generations of the House of Israel

4. Covenant with Priests - Promise: Never lack a man to serve as priests in Temple; Term: As long as Temple stands; Blood inauguration: Sprinkling blood of bull of consecration; Sign: Bronze plates on altar of incense; To Whom Devolves: Descendants of Aaron and Levites

5. Covenant with David - Promise: Never lack a man to sit on David's throne; Term: Forever; Blood inauguration: The scourging and crucifixion of the Promised Anointed King of Israel, Son of David; Sign: A Child to be born in the city of David; To Whom Devolves: The Promised Son of David

6. New Covenant with Israel - Promise: Put the Law of Moses in Israel's heart so they never forsake it again; Term: During reign of Messiah the King; Blood inauguration: Dead bodies of the Wicked slain in judgment on the Day of the Lord; Sign: Purchase of the lots of Israel by legal deed; To Whom Devolves: House of Israel at time of Deliverance and Restoration of Jerusalem

7. Covenant with Abraham - Promise: Blessings on all nations through Promised Seed Heir of Abraham; Term: At coming of Promised Seed Heir, retroactive to all who have the faith of Abraham, and forever after, to the New Heaven and New Earth; Blood inauguration: The sacrifice of the Lamb of God; Sign: The cup and bread of blessing; To Whom Devolves: "Ho! Whosoever!"

 

[Clare73]

May I do it for you then? ("Why yes, please do!" "Ah! Why thank you! So kind!")

1. Covenant with Noah - Promise: No more flood; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Death of all the Wicked; Sign: Rainbow; To Whom Devolves: All the inhabitants of earth

2. Covenant with Abram - Promise: Named Descendants get the Land; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Animals cut in two; Sign: Circumcision; To Whom Devolves: Children of Israel

3. Covenant with Moses - Promise: Obey the Law get blessings, disobey get curses; Term: As long as earth remains; Blood inauguration: Animal blood sprinkled on Book and People; Sign: Sabbaths; To Whom Devolves: All the generations of the House of Israel

4. Covenant with Priests - Promise: Never lack a man to serve as priests in Temple; Term: As long as Temple stands; Blood inauguration: Sprinkling blood of bull of consecration; Sign: Bronze plates on altar of incense; To Whom Devolves: Descendants of Aaron and Levites

5. Covenant with David - Promise: Never lack a man to sit on David's throne; Term: Forever; Blood inauguration: The scourging and crucifixion of the Promised Anointed King of Israel, Son of David; Sign: A Child to be born in the city of David; To Whom Devolves: The Promised Son of David

6. New Covenant with Israel - Promise: Put the Law of Moses in Israel's heart so they never forsake it again; Term: During reign of Messiah the King; Blood inauguration: Dead bodies of the Wicked slain in judgment on the Day of the Lord; Sign: Purchase of the lots of Israel by legal deed; To Whom Devolves: House of Israel at time of Deliverance and Restoration of Jerusalem

7. Covenant with Abraham - Promise: Blessings on all nations through Promised Seed Heir of Abraham; Term: At coming of Promised Seed Heir, retroactive to all who have the faith of Abraham, and forever after, to the New Heaven and New Earth; Blood inauguration: The sacrifice of the Lamb of God; Sign: The cup and bread of blessing; To Whom Devolves: "Ho! Whosoever!"

Nope. . .

#7 is not the second covenant with Abraham.

The first covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 15:9-21--unconditional (#2).

The second covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 17--conditional (and should be #3).

Not interested in pursing this any further. . .thanks.

 

[ralliann]

Nope. . .

#7 is not the second covenant with Abraham.

The first covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 15:9-21--unconditional (#2).

The second covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 17--conditional (and should be #3).

Not interested in pursing this any further. . .thanks.

So glad to see someone acknowledge two covenants here. Though I would not go with conditional, vs unconditional, This acknowledgement is fantastic Clare.

 

[Clare73]

So glad to see someone acknowledge two covenants here. Though I would not go with conditional, vs unconditional, This acknowledgement is fantastic Clare.

Thanks!

Isn't the covenant of Genesis 15:9-21 without condition (i.e., unconditional) on the part of Abraham?

Isn't the covenant of Genesis 17 based on conditions (i.e., conditional) to be observed. . ."As for me," (v.4) and "As for you," (v.9);
the condition: total consecration (cutting off the flesh) to the Lord as symbolized by circumcision (v.1)?

 

[Jeffrey A]

Nope. . .#7 is not the second covenant with Abraham.

Sure it is! Paul said so!

The first covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 15:9-21--unconditional (#2).

Exactly (but you need to start at verse 7). Genesis 15:7: "And (God) said to (Abram), 'I am the Lord who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it." So you agree with me on Covenant 2. Great! Genesis 15:7-21 was the blood inauguration of the covenant of the Land first promised at Genesis 12:7 -- "To your descendants I will give this Land." And you are exactly correct that it was "unconditional." Very impressed!

The second covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 17--conditional (and should be #3).

YES! The second covenant with Abraham is in Genesis 17!! This is awesome! (The only reason I put it as #7 is because it wasn't revealed as being the same covenant of Luke 22:20 until Paul revealed that mystery in his letter to the Galatians.)

So, what is this "second covenant with Abraham" we both see and acknowledge in Genesis 17? -- "My covenant is with you (Abram) -- you will be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of a multitude of nations... I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your 'descendants' after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your 'descendants' after you." It was the ratification into a covenant of the promise first made to him in Genesis 12:3: "I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." This promise is repeated at Genesis 22:16-18, after Abraham obeys God by being willing to sacrifice his son -- "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord... In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed..."

Not interested in pursing this any further. . .thanks.

Aw. But nobody else wants to play.

BTW, here is where Paul says the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood is this same second covenant God made with Abraham at Genesis 17 and 22; Galatians 3:7-18 -- "Be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.'... (I)n Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham... come(s) to the Gentiles... Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed [Gen 22:18]. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as referring to many, but rather to one, 'And to your seed,' that is, Christ."

Paul continues: "What I am saying is this: the Law (Covenant), which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a COVENANT PREVIOUSLY RATIFIED BY GOD, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance [of claiming to be descendants of Abraham by the Covenant of Genesis 17] is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of (that) promise."

What promise? That "in (Abraham's) seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." Who is that seed of the promise? "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise [that Abraham shall be the Father of a Multitude of Nations through his promised Seed Heir, in whom All the Nations of the Earth Shall be Blessed]." Galatians 3:29.

That is Covenant #3 in your counting, #7 in mine. I only save it for last because it took Paul to fully reveal that it is the same exact covenant Jesus instituted at the Last Supper. His death is HOW all the nations shall be blessed, and faith in Him is HOW one may be called a son of Abraham, even though one is a Gentile. We are SPIRITUAL sons of Abraham, by faith.

One other thing. You are partly correct that it is conditional. It is unconditional to the collective, the whole world, but upon the individual, it is, as you say, conditional. One must have the faith, in order to receive the blessing held out unconditionally to all the nations.

 

[ralliann]

Thanks!

Isn't the covenant of Genesis 15:9-21 without condition (i.e., unconditional) on the part of Abraham?

Isn't the covenant of Genesis 17 based on conditions (i.e., conditional) to be observed. . ."As for me," (v.4) and "As for you," (v.9);
the condition: total consecration (cutting off the flesh) to the Lord as symbolized by circumcision (v.1)?

I am not sure the terms give a complete application. I am just exploring this from another context is all Clare.
I am thinking there might be "principals" operating from prior covenants at play. Which IF SO, then the appear a conditionality. An example would be the seed of promise, from the beginning, the seed of the woman. Which seed is also Adam's seed of promise via the blessing of the marital covenant,

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
Ge 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Jesus...in just one Gospel
Mth 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
There are a lot of things which seem obscure to us in Scripture. An example is
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
And... Lukes genealogy, I think is not a genealogy as we think of it. Joseph the husband of Mary, I think it is possible it is the seed of Adam as the seed of promise through the woman (son of God via promise), and the the man (son of man) via the continuation of the blessing of the Marital covenant in the day they were created called them man. The same idea applies to Abraham and Sarah being the wife with the seed of promise

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You have no idea about these issues.
This is non Christian thought once again.

 

[John Caldwell]

I am not sure the terms give a complete application. I am just exploring this from another context is all Clare.
I am thinking there might be "principals" operating from prior covenants at play. Which IF SO, then the appear a conditionality. An example would be the seed of promise, from the beginning, the seed of the woman. Which seed is also Adam's seed of promise via the blessing of the marital covenant,

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
Ge 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Jesus...in just one Gospel
Mth 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
There are a lot of things which seem obscure to us in Scripture. An example is
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
And... Lukes genealogy, I think is not a genealogy as we think of it. Joseph the husband of Mary, I think it is possible it is the seed of Adam as the seed of promise through the woman (son of God via promise), and the the man (son of man) via the continuation of the blessing of the Marital covenant in the day they were created called them man. The same idea applies to Abraham and Sarah being the wife with the seed of promise

The thing about covenants is all but one are within a context of the Old Covenant, pointing to the New Covenant to come.

The Abrahamic Covenant is treated as the overarching covenant in Scripture (pointing to the Promise). The Mosaic Covenant (the Law) is given within the Abrahamic Covenant to a specific people descended from Abraham through Judah and sojourning after the Exodus.

We can speculate about an Adamic Covenant, but that is not properly a covenant (at least in terms of what is provided in Scripture).

 

[Jeffrey A]

[In reply to ralliann] The thing about covenants is all but one are within a context of the Old Covenant, pointing to the New Covenant to come.

"All but one..." Now this is interesting. In your view, what are "all" the covenants?

The Abrahamic Covenant is treated as the overarching covenant in Scripture (pointing to the Promise). The Mosaic Covenant (the Law) is given within the Abrahamic Covenant to a specific people descended from Abraham through Judah and sojourning after the Exodus.

That's two. (And I assume you mean "Jacob" rather than "Judah.") Are there any others?

Is it reasonable to say from your characterization of the "Abrahamic Covenant" as the "overarching" covenant which is "pointing to the Promise", that it encompasses the same covenant as "the New Covenant" to which you allude?

We can speculate about an Adamic Covenant, but that is not properly a covenant

I so agree. So are we at 3 covenants so far (Abrahamic, Mosaic, New), or still only 2 (Abrahamic/New, Mosaic)?

 

[Jeffrey A]

You have no idea about these issues. This is non Christian thought once again.

Just curious, since you didn't backquote, to whom were you directing this? rallian, or Clare73? Or both?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Just curious, since you didn't backquote, to whom were you directing this? rallian, or Clare73? Or both?

The op.
Robert Pate will say some things correctly, but will quickly contradict himself in the same post.
Christians are not lawless.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Latter day Protestant ideologies at conflict with each other. Suggested remedy: original orthodox Christianity.