Double Predestination

[JM]

Hey folks,

Luther quotes:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

"I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."

"Thus God conceals His eternal mercy and loving kindness beneath eternal wrath, His righteousness beneath unrighteousness. Now, the highest degree of faith is to believe that He is merciful, though he saves so few and damns so many; to believe that He is just, though of His own will He makes us perforce proper subjects for damnation, and seems (in Erasmus' words) 'to delight in the torments of poor wretches and to be a fitter object for hate than for love.' If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith when these things are preached and published; just as, when God kills, faith in life is exercised in death."

I hold to double predestination and believe this is the position of Luther in Bondage of the Will. How is 'not' electing someone to salvation 'not' a form of predestination. Help me understand? Either way you slice it God still created a mass of people He knew would not be apart of His electing grace.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hey folks,

Luther quotes:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

"I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."

"Thus God conceals His eternal mercy and loving kindness beneath eternal wrath, His righteousness beneath unrighteousness. Now, the highest degree of faith is to believe that He is merciful, though he saves so few and damns so many; to believe that He is just, though of His own will He makes us perforce proper subjects for damnation, and seems (in Erasmus' words) 'to delight in the torments of poor wretches and to be a fitter object for hate than for love.' If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith when these things are preached and published; just as, when God kills, faith in life is exercised in death."

I hold to double predestination and believe this is the position of Luther in Bondage of the Will. How is 'not' electing someone to salvation 'not' a form of predestination. Help me understand? Either way you slice it God still created a mass of people He knew would not be apart of His electing grace.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Agreed. The logic is simple and irrefutable. Those who disagree don't answer it, but just claim that it contradicts the "loving God" the Bible presents. I don't like the term, "double predestination", because people can't seem to help inferring from it that God chose some and rejected others for no particular reason. They complain, "God is not capricious the way Calvinism claims.", as though Calvinism claims such a thing. God has chosen some particular ones for destruction, not primarily for their destruction, but for his glory, and as witness to his mercy, and his justice, and his wisdom, to the objects of his mercy. And he has every right to do so, to the clay he has formed. His creation is his to do with as he will.

But, can anyone claim that the sinner is not fully participating in his sin? They say, but God made him that way! So I say, then it is true —the sinner does fully and with his whole heart, participate in his sin.

 

[OkieAllDay]

Agreed. The logic is simple and irrefutable. Those who disagree don't answer it, but just claim that it contradicts the "loving God" the Bible presents. I don't like the term, "double predestination", because people can't seem to help inferring from it that God chose some and rejected others for no particular reason. They complain, "God is not capricious the way Calvinism claims.", as though Calvinism claims such a thing. God has chosen some particular ones for destruction, not primarily for their destruction, but for his glory, and as witness to his mercy, and his justice, and his wisdom, to the objects of his mercy. And he has every right to do so, to the clay he has formed. His creation is his to do with as he will.

But, can anyone claim that the sinner is not fully participating in his sin? They say, but God made him that way! So I say, then it is true —the sinner does fully and with his whole heart, participate in his sin.

So God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell because that is how He gains more glory? And He punishes them for sins which He causes them to commit? And that is a God of love and justice? I don't think so.

 

[JM]

From the Book of Concord I can see contradictory positions being held. Election unto salvation for the elect BUT God desires to save all. The church I was a member of previously denied election outright so I can at least appreciate the acknowledgement of election even if it is cognitive dissonance.

But hey, "faith seeks understanding", I'm just trying to make sense of things.

From the LCMS site, "Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12." "Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God's counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them through Word and Sacrament, to faith and salvation." Source

"Gaze upon the wounds of Christ and the blood shed for you; there predestination will shine forth." (Luther on Gen. 26:9)

The Book of Concord has a much stronger position on election than first thought and I will be the first to say Calvinism/Reformed theology is very rational and reasonable. That's the problem. Once I was able to acknowledge that God works outside of my heart, in the Sacraments, reason was placed in check. We need to recapture a sense of enchantment to borrow from Charles Taylor.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Halbhh]

Hey folks,

Luther quotes:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

"I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."

"Thus God conceals His eternal mercy and loving kindness beneath eternal wrath, His righteousness beneath unrighteousness. Now, the highest degree of faith is to believe that He is merciful, though he saves so few and damns so many; to believe that He is just, though of His own will He makes us perforce proper subjects for damnation, and seems (in Erasmus' words) 'to delight in the torments of poor wretches and to be a fitter object for hate than for love.' If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith when these things are preached and published; just as, when God kills, faith in life is exercised in death."

I hold to double predestination and believe this is the position of Luther in Bondage of the Will. How is 'not' electing someone to salvation 'not' a form of predestination. Help me understand? Either way you slice it God still created a mass of people He knew would not be apart of His electing grace.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

In the Lutheran church we don't worship Luther of course, and we know relatively a lot about him, and even though usually there will be a decorative portrait of Luther in a hallway, most Lutherans are aware that Luther made some mistakes. He was only human, of course, and humans do make mistakes.

Of course, as you may know, there is extensive debate about double predestination here at CF....

But not out there in the churches that much....

Not in the Lutheran pews much if even a bit (I've never heard it, and I tend to ask people all sorts of questions, curious about their views).

Generally Lutherans seem to most all know that we have real ability to choose. God helps us, but we aren't compelled/forced to accept or reject God, but instead we have a real ability to choose, and then if we will turn to Him, He will bring us in. Him, not us.

We don't do that part. He does.

It's like John chapter 3 -- some choose to come/remain in the light, as worded in John 3, and some wish to avoid the light.

So, the more complete, full understanding is that God helps us -- He saves us -- if we merely turn to Him in repentance, just exactly like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

My experience is that if someone will read through the bible fully with listening (the only good way to read), then they will realize God indeed allows us real choice. In other words, our brains are functional -- God designed our brains to be able to make choices, do actions, both good and evil. As Christ said, we are 'gods' -- made in God's image -- so we are not just shells without God given abilities. We have real abilities by God's design. But, we can only do truly good things -- real fruit that lasts -- solely by abiding in Christ -- John 15:1-17. From Him. Good fruit only comes from Him. He is the source that makes good fruit possible, entirely. Not us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell because that is how He gains more glory? And He punishes them for sins which He causes them to commit? And that is a God of love and justice? I don't think so.

No. He creates people for the purpose of (Romans 9) "display[ing his] power in [them] and that [his] name might be proclaimed in all the earth" and, "show[ing] his wrath and mak[ing] his power known, ....to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

"Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?" is not just a remonstrance. It is a statement concerning our self-important blindness.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

This is from the Epitome of the Formula of Concord and then the 1932 Brief statement of Doctrinal Position which both disavow double predestination:

11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God’s Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. — Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

XI. Election.

1 Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing...

bookofconcord.org

Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.

www.lcms.org

 

[OkieAllDay]

No. He creates people for the purpose of (Romans 9) "display[ing his] power in [them] and that [his] name might be proclaimed in all the earth" and, "show[ing] his wrath and mak[ing] his power known, ....to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

"Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?" is not just a remonstrance. It is a statement concerning our self-important blindness.

Who created people to be self-important and blind (according to Calvinism)?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Who created people to be self-important and blind (according to Calvinism)?

Maybe you mean, how did they get that way? Who blinds themselves and assumes self-importance (according to you)?

 

[OkieAllDay]

I don't understand your question. But my point is in Calvinism God makes people do evil and then punishes them for the deeds that He ordained they commit.

 

[JM]

So God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell because that is how He gains more glory? And He punishes them for sins which He causes them to commit? And that is a God of love and justice? I don't think so.

God foreknows all things and still created a mass of people that would fall into sin and end up in Hell. That’s unavoidable unless you are an open theist.

In the Lutheran church we don't worship Luther of course, and we know relatively a lot about him, and even though usually there will be a decorative portrait of Luther in a hallway, most Lutherans are aware that Luther made some mistakes. He was only human, of course, and humans do make mistakes.

Of course not but we don’t ignore him either. I’m not confessional on this doctrine or a bunch of other doctrines in the Book of Concord. I may end up not joining the LCMS congregation and look for a Presbyterian church that has a high view of the sacraments.

This is from the Epitome of the Formula of Concord and then the 1932 Brief statement of Doctrinal Position which both disavow double predestination: 11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God’s Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

This isn’t an argument or defense of the confessional Lutheran position it’s just a statement of what is believed.

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. — Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

I linked to the statement on election from the LCMS above which reads,

“Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other.”

We see two theological categories being used, “universal will of grace” and “election of grace.” I need to learn more from a Lutheran perspective to under what is meant, is that the same as the Reformed idea of revealed will and secret will of God? Revealed will is that made plan in Scripture and other is God’s eternal purpose not revealed?

Further, we read in the statement; “On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.”

The statement admits to holding contrary and contradictory theological opinions which is why I asked about it in the Lutheran forum. To call it "blind reason" but Lutheran orthodoxy was Scholastic doesn't make sense. I’m just trying to understand the position but I think the statement is pretty clear, you don’t need to understand it, just accept contradictory positions by faith?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

This is from the LCMS website
The LCMS believes that Scripture clearly teaches (in passages such as those mentioned in your question) a predestination to salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ alone.

The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation; God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

Like so many teachings of Scripture (e.g., the Trinity, eternity, the two natures of Christ, the love of a holy God for rebellious sinners), this teaching seems contradictory and is incomprehensible to human reason.

We believe it not because it "makes sense" to human reason, but because this is what we find taught in the pages of God's holy Word.

Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Frequently asked questions about LCMS doctrine.

www.lcms.org

 

[JM]

This is from the LCMS website
The LCMS believes that Scripture clearly teaches (in passages such as those mentioned in your question) a predestination to salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ alone.

The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation; God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

Like so many teachings of Scripture (e.g., the Trinity, eternity, the two natures of Christ, the love of a holy God for rebellious sinners), this teaching seems contradictory and is incomprehensible to human reason.

We believe it not because it "makes sense" to human reason, but because this is what we find taught in the pages of God's holy Word.

Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Frequently asked questions about LCMS doctrine.

www.lcms.org

Yes, thank you, covered in post #11.

The rub is, that many do not agree that a born again Christian enlightened by the Spirit cannot comprehend predestination. Instead of getting side tracked and moving outside of the confessional Lutheran view I'll just leave a link if anyone wants to study it further.

Absolute Predestination

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT ELECTION, IT’S NOT BASED ON FORESEEN RESPONSES: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (Ma 13:20) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and...

www.christianforums.com

I can live with the view presented by the LCMS and the B of C, I mean, I attended an Arminian Baptist church for years. At this point, with the re-election of Matthew Harrison and an avid liberal coming in second I may look for a Presbyterian church to attend.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[OkieAllDay]

God foreknows all things and still created a mass of people that would fall into sin and end up in Hell. That’s unavoidable unless you are an open theist.

God knowing what will happen (like people sinning or sending people to hell) is very different from God ordaining people before they were born to go to hell and to sin. Because that is what He WANTED them to do

 

[JM]

God knowing what will happen (like people sinning or sending people to hell) is very different from God ordaining people before they were born to go to hell and to sin. Because that is what He WANTED them to do

It's the same.

One is passive, the other active...just think of Pharaoh. 19 times we are told Pharaoh's heart was harden, 16 times God did the hardening...I think that is active reprobation and condemnation.

 

[Halbhh]

It's the same.

One is passive, the other active...just think of Pharaoh. 19 times we are told Pharaoh's heart was harden, 16 times God did the hardening...I think that is active reprobation and condemnation.

After that Pharaoh followed the brutal, evil ways of his father the previous Pharaoh, and mistreated Israelite slaves for years, then, after that extensive choice to do evil over time, continuing.... God then responded by choosing to harden that Pharaoh's heart.

But this was only after that Pharaoh had already chosen injustices/evil as his primary way of life.

 

[OkieAllDay]

It's the same.

One is passive, the other active...just think of Pharaoh. 19 times we are told Pharaoh's heart was harden, 16 times God did the hardening...I think that is active reprobation and condemnation.

I don't remember the final tally on times Pharaoh had a hard heart, but I am almost positive the first SEVEN times he hardened his own heart, and only afterward did God further harden his heart.

One view allows human freedom (and with that the consequences of disobedience. The other view has God as the author of sin (and unloving toward 80% of humanity)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hey folks,

Luther quotes:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

"I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."

"Thus God conceals His eternal mercy and loving kindness beneath eternal wrath, His righteousness beneath unrighteousness. Now, the highest degree of faith is to believe that He is merciful, though he saves so few and damns so many; to believe that He is just, though of His own will He makes us perforce proper subjects for damnation, and seems (in Erasmus' words) 'to delight in the torments of poor wretches and to be a fitter object for hate than for love.' If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith when these things are preached and published; just as, when God kills, faith in life is exercised in death."

I hold to double predestination and believe this is the position of Luther in Bondage of the Will. How is 'not' electing someone to salvation 'not' a form of predestination. Help me understand? Either way you slice it God still created a mass of people He knew would not be apart of His electing grace.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

The parable of the wheat and tares comes back to remembrance.

God Bless.

 

[JM]

Let's keep this Lutheran as this is the Lutheran forum, specifically LCMS, and the rules dictate we keep it Lutheran - LCMS.

Accordingly, only the elect are saved, not all are elect, therefore not all will be saved.

Pretty simple.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God knowing what will happen (like people sinning or sending people to hell) is very different from God ordaining people before they were born to go to hell and to sin. Because that is what He WANTED them to do

Interesting the anthropomorphism "WANTED", inserted here. Why would you say that, instead of just "planned", or even "intended"?