Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

[One God and Father of All]

It's true that in the only place where "1st resurrection" is mentioned, nothing is said about believers who are still alive--at least not directly. But how can you say that those "given authority to judge" do not include those who had still been alive and granted immortality?

Rev 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

This passage, in particular, focuses rightly on the deliverance of those who had been killed by the Beast. It is not ignoring those who survived, but rather, lauding those who had endured until death.

I also am a Futurist, but not of the Dispensationalist kind. I do not embrace the argument that in order for the glorified Church to return with Christ they must 1st have been "Raptured" 7 years earlier. This is how I often hear it described.

In my view, the Rapture of the Church, along with our glorification, is instantaneous. Therefore, we can immediately appear in heaven with Christ in the clouds as he begins his descent. This takes no time at all for God.

Rather than try to understand the mechanics of how God brings us from A to B, and then from B to A, why not just accept what Scripture teaches, that Christ is coming back to deliver the Church from the Beast and from Death?

As I've said many times now, all of this eschatology comes directly from Dan 7, where the Son of Man is portrayed as coming down from heaven, to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. There is no systematic break down in the process--it is just declared as something that will happen at some point in the future, all at once.

But you're welcome to form your own opinion. I will not respect you any less, since much of what you say is Bible.

Not sure I understand your question.

I believe the raptured saints will come with Christ to execute God’s judgments. That is when the book of Revelation begins.
There will be mortal believers during the time judgment begins. They will have been beheaded because they refused to worship the beast and his image. They will take part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
Those who had killed the believers will be judged at the end of the thousand years. The second resurrection.
The ones who took part in the first resurrection are given authority to judge those wicked who take part in the second resurrection.

 

[RandyPNW]

Not sure I understand your question.

Again, you stated that:
The rapture includes both the living and the dead who are in Christ. It is therefore not to save them from the Anti-Christ.
There is no rapture for the living at the “first” resurrection.

If I understand you correctly, I cannot agree with these statements.
1) I believe the Rapture includes both the living and the dead in Christ.
2) The Rapture is for the living at the 1st Resurrection.

1 Thes 4 indicates that the Rapture is when Christ comes to save those still alive. And it says that immediately prior to this, the dead saints are raised so as not to be excluded from this event. The event is to provide new glorious, immortal bodies for the saints of the present era, which is awarded them at the 2nd Coming. For me, this is the "1st Resurrection," or synonymous with the "Rapture."

I believe the raptured saints will come with Christ to execute God’s judgments. That is when the book of Revelation begins.

Since the book of Revelation does not have a consistent chronology, apart from the chronology in John's time in receiving the Revelation, there can be no "beginning" of the overall vision. In fact, the book of Revelation consists not of one but of several large visions, which include many smaller visions. Each vision can have its own chronology and beginning.

You're obviously assuming that John's "rapture" to heaven is a type of the Rapture of the Church? I'm not a Pretrib, and I only see John being caught up to see a heavenly vision, just as Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven to see visions. Being caught up to heaven to see visions is common and not related to the Rapture of the Church.

At any rate, the Church must continue to be on earth during the Reign of Antichrist because it is written that they are beheaded and otherwise persecuted by the Beast. They are not condemned for being "lukewarm" and "missing the Rapture," but rather, they are commended as faithful Christians. But we each have to determine our own eschatology.

There will be mortal believers during the time judgment begins. They will have been beheaded because they refused to worship the beast and his image. They will take part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

What is the "Judgment" you're referring to? Dispensationalists typically like to include the entire Reign of Antichrist as the "time of Judgment." I don't. I see God's judgment, of course, as taking place all through history, because God always curses evil deeds. This is not unique to the Reign of Antichrist.

But the larger "Judgment" being spoken of in the book of Revelation is related to Armageddon at the end of the Reign of Antichrist. It also relates to the eternal sentencing of the Wicked to the Lake of Fire at the 2nd Coming of Christ. Some of this sentencing is carried out at the 2nd Coming, and some at the end of the Millennial Era.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Again, you stated that:
The rapture includes both the living and the dead who are in Christ. It is therefore not to save them from the Anti-Christ.
There is no rapture for the living at the “first” resurrection.

If I understand you correctly, I cannot agree with these statements.
1) I believe the Rapture includes both the living and the dead in Christ.
2) The Rapture is for the living at the 1st Resurrection.

1 Thes 4 indicates that the Rapture is when Christ comes to save those still alive. And it says that immediately prior to this, the dead saints are raised so as not to be excluded from this event. The event is to provide new glorious, immortal bodies for the saints of the present era, which is awarded them at the 2nd Coming. For me, this is the "1st Resurrection," or synonymous with the "Rapture."


Since the book of Revelation does not have a consistent chronology, apart from the chronology in John's time in receiving the Revelation, there can be no "beginning" of the overall vision. In fact, the book of Revelation consists not of one but of several large visions, which include many smaller visions. Each vision can have its own chronology and beginning.

You're obviously assuming that John's "rapture" to heaven is a type of the Rapture of the Church? I'm not a Pretrib, and I only see John being caught up to see a heavenly vision, just as Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven to see visions. Being caught up to heaven to see visions is common and not related to the Rapture of the Church.

At any rate, the Church must continue to be on earth during the Reign of Antichrist because it is written that they are beheaded and otherwise persecuted by the Beast. They are not condemned for being "lukewarm" and "missing the Rapture," but rather, they are commended as faithful Christians. But we each have to determine our own eschatology.

What is the "Judgment" you're referring to? Dispensationalists typically like to include the entire Reign of Antichrist as the "time of Judgment." I don't. I see God's judgment, of course, as taking place all through history, because God always curses evil deeds. This is not unique to the Reign of Antichrist.

But the larger "Judgment" being spoken of in the book of Revelation is related to Armageddon at the end of the Reign of Antichrist. It also relates to the eternal sentencing of the Wicked to the Lake of Fire at the 2nd Coming of Christ. Some of this sentencing is carried out at the 2nd Coming, and some at the end of the Millennial Era.

If the rapture is the first resurrection then the 4 living creatures and 24 elders have to be other than those of the rapture because they are there when the Lamb opens the seals And before the first resurrection.
I believe those are of the rapture Who constitute the 4 living creatures and 24 elders.
The kingdom of God of old included the tabernacle, the instruments used in service, and the people who served, along with the tribes ..
The divisions of the people was in 4 groups of 3 tribes each = 4 living creatures
The division of the priests was 24 ( see Chron 24) = 24 elders

Now, since the old system represented the true system as a shadow or pattern of things to come as in heaven, we see the true tabernacle, and the true system as the old represented. And that is what John saw In heaven when the door was opened.

therefore, the saints are there already when God’s judgments are executed. They are represented by the 4 living creature and 24 elders.

 

[RandyPNW]

If the rapture is the first resurrection then the 4 living creatures and 24 elders have to be other than those of the rapture because they are there when the Lamb opens the seals And before the first resurrection.

The vision of the Throne Room is a heavenly vision--not prediction of a future event! It displays the determination in heaven to provide an atonement that allows the redemption of people. The Lamb, who is Christ, obtained that on the cross. And so it is shown that history from that point on could unfold to show just how people are redeemed in history.

This history is replete with a lot of trouble, because the process of redeeming humanity is messy, and tolerates all kinds of wickedness in the interim. The 4 creatures and 24 elders appear to reflect a kind of angelic order, such as existed under the OT temple worship. Living in Christ activates the angelic realm in our favor, and even if we suffer we are guided to our eternal home.

I believe those are of the rapture Who constitute the 4 living creatures and 24 elders.
The kingdom of God of old included the tabernacle, the instruments used in service, and the people who served, along with the tribes ..
The divisions of the people was in 4 groups of 3 tribes each = 4 living creatures
The division of the priests was 24 ( see Chron 24) = 24 elders

Yes, I know. My brother informed me some time ago about the order or priests. I don't know if the 4 groups equates to the 4 living creatures?

Now, since the old system represented the true system as a shadow or pattern of things to come as in heaven, we see the true tabernacle, and the true system as the old represented. And that is what John saw In heaven when the door was opened.

Heavenly visions can be very figurative or symbolic. It tells us nothing about eschatology, however. It just indicates that the doorway to Salvation has already been opened, and that God is guiding history on to His goal for us.

therefore, the saints are there already when God’s judgments are executed. They are represented by the 4 living creature and 24 elders.

Well, angels certainly do bring judgments. But the ultimate judgment is at Armageddon and at the Judgment before God's Throne. The Reign of Antichrist is not called "God's Judgment."

 

[One God and Father of All]

Again, you stated that:
The rapture includes both the living and the dead who are in Christ. It is therefore not to save them from the Anti-Christ.
There is no rapture for the living at the “first” resurrection.

If I understand you correctly, I cannot agree with these statements.
1) I believe the Rapture includes both the living and the dead in Christ.
2) The Rapture is for the living at the 1st Resurrection.

1 Thes 4 indicates that the Rapture is when Christ comes to save those still alive. And it says that immediately prior to this, the dead saints are raised so as not to be excluded from this event. The event is to provide new glorious, immortal bodies for the saints of the present era, which is awarded them at the 2nd Coming. For me, this is the "1st Resurrection," or synonymous with the "Rapture."


Since the book of Revelation does not have a consistent chronology, apart from the chronology in John's time in receiving the Revelation, there can be no "beginning" of the overall vision. In fact, the book of Revelation consists not of one but of several large visions, which include many smaller visions. Each vision can have its own chronology and beginning.

You're obviously assuming that John's "rapture" to heaven is a type of the Rapture of the Church? I'm not a Pretrib, and I only see John being caught up to see a heavenly vision, just as Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven to see visions. Being caught up to heaven to see visions is common and not related to the Rapture of the Church.

At any rate, the Church must continue to be on earth during the Reign of Antichrist because it is written that they are beheaded and otherwise persecuted by the Beast. They are not condemned for being "lukewarm" and "missing the Rapture," but rather, they are commended as faithful Christians. But we each have to determine our own eschatology.

What is the "Judgment" you're referring to? Dispensationalists typically like to include the entire Reign of Antichrist as the "time of Judgment." I don't. I see God's judgment, of course, as taking place all through history, because God always curses evil deeds. This is not unique to the Reign of Antichrist.

But the larger "Judgment" being spoken of in the book of Revelation is related to Armageddon at the end of the Reign of Antichrist. It also relates to the eternal sentencing of the Wicked to the Lake of Fire at the 2nd Coming of Christ. Some of this sentencing is carried out at the 2nd Coming, and some at the end of the Millennial Era.

Ive been using Biblehub for my studies. And this discussion caused me to look at what commentators have said about the 24 Elders and 4 living creatures. Most of them agree that they represent the church who have been redeemed and who are dressed in white with crowns on their heads. And that they are not angels because the angels are spoken of separately. I found this comment from JFB bible commentary interesting :

“The tabernacle was a "pattern" of the heavenly antitype; the holy place, a figure of HEAVEN ITSELF. Thus Jehovah's throne is represented by the mercy seat in the holiest, the Shekinah-cloud over it. "The seven lamps of fire before the throne" (Re 4:5) are antitypical to the seven-branched candlestick also in the holiest, emblem of the manifold Spirit of God: "the sea of glass" (Re 4:6) corresponds to the molten sea before the sanctuary, wherein the priests washed themselves before entering on their holy service; so introduced here in connection with the redeemed "priests unto God" (compare Note, see on [2687]Re 15:2). The "four living creatures" (Re 4:6, 7) answer to the cherubim over the mercy seat. So the twenty-four throned and crowned elders are typified by the twenty-four chiefs of the twenty-four courses of priests, "Governors of the sanctuary, and governors of God" (1Ch 24:5; 25:1-31).”

He says that the tabernacle of old was a “pattern” of the true tabernacle that is in heaven.
When the door in heaven was opened, John was to see the true tabernacle that the old was a pattern of.
He also says the four living creatures answer to the cherubim over the mercy seat. I also agree with that. Because to pass through the veil into the most holy place where the cherubim were is to pass into heaven’s immortality.
He also recognizes the 24 elders as being the 24 courses of priests as 1 ch 24 mentions.
So, those are there in heaven when the Lamb opens the seals and before the first resurrection.

The reason they are there is because they had been translated or resurrected before the judgement’s of God come upon the earth.

 

[One God and Father of All]

The vision of the Throne Room is a heavenly vision--not prediction of a future event! It displays the determination in heaven to provide an atonement that allows the redemption of people. The Lamb, who is Christ, obtained that on the cross. And so it is shown that history from that point on could unfold to show just how people are redeemed in history.

This history is replete with a lot of trouble, because the process of redeeming humanity is messy, and tolerates all kinds of wickedness in the interim. The 4 creatures and 24 elders appear to reflect a kind of angelic order, such as existed under the OT temple worship. Living in Christ activates the angelic realm in our favor, and even if we suffer we are guided to our eternal home.

Yes, I know. My brother informed me some time ago about the order or priests. I don't know if the 4 groups equates to the 4 living creatures?

Heavenly visions can be very figurative or symbolic. It tells us nothing about eschatology, however. It just indicates that the doorway to Salvation has already been opened, and that God is guiding history on to His goal for us.

Well, angels certainly do bring judgments. But the ultimate judgment is at Armageddon and at the Judgment before God's Throne. The Reign of Antichrist is not called "God's Judgment."

I’m not a historicist who views the events of Revelation as something that has been unfolding since the time of Christ. I view it as the day of the Lord when His judgments are to come upon His people and the nations. Therefore, when I read it, I understand that John was shown what is to take place over a short period of time. And he uses highly symbolic language to describe what he sees to take place. And I don’t think we need to go outside of the Bible in order to understand those symbols.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To say there is a first resurrection implies at least one another to follow. And so there is.

The only place in the Bible that speaks of a first and second resurrection is John's Apocalypse--a work of highly symbolic and figurative language.

The rest of the Bible, when speaking of resurrection, speaks of Christ as the firstfruits, and of the general resurrection at Christ's return. Between Christ's resurrection and the general resurrection at the consummation of history, Scripture speaks of our being united to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Specifically connected to the Sacrament of Baptism (see Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:11-13).

Unsurprisingly, then, the overwhelming number of Christian exegetes, from ancient times to modern times, have historically interpreted the first resurrection as mentioned in the Apocalypse as referring to Baptism; we died with Christ, were buried with Christ, and have been raised up together with Christ by God's grace so that even now, while alive in these mortal bodies, we have received new resurrected life. And this points forward, toward, to our own bodily resurrection at Christ's return; the Holy Spirit Himself who we have received is the promise and guarantee that what God has done for Jesus He will do for us--even these bodies shall be transformed and glorified even as Christ's body was.

Scripture also speaks of the general resurrection in two ways: primarily focused on the resurrection of life for the saints, it also speaks of how, at the general resurrection of the dead, the wicked will be raised up not to glory, but judgment and condemnation.

But there is only one resurrection of the flesh--and it happens at the end, when Christ returns in glory. But we, who have our inheritance in Christ, partake and share in His resurrection life and power even now, through faith, by the grace of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[One God and Father of All]

The only place in the Bible that speaks of a first and second resurrection is John's Apocalypse--a work of highly symbolic and figurative language.

The rest of the Bible, when speaking of resurrection, speaks of Christ as the firstfruits, and of the general resurrection at Christ's return. Between Christ's resurrection and the general resurrection at the consummation of history, Scripture speaks of our being united to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Specifically connected to the Sacrament of Baptism (see Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:11-13).

Unsurprisingly, then, the overwhelming number of Christian exegetes, from ancient times to modern times, have historically interpreted the first resurrection as mentioned in the Apocalypse as referring to Baptism; we died with Christ, were buried with Christ, and have been raised up together with Christ by God's grace so that even now, while alive in these mortal bodies, we have received new resurrected life. And this points forward, toward, to our own bodily resurrection at Christ's return; the Holy Spirit Himself who we have received is the promise and guarantee that what God has done for Jesus He will do for us--even these bodies shall be transformed and glorified even as Christ's body was.

Scripture also speaks of the general resurrection in two ways: primarily focused on the resurrection of life for the saints, it also speaks of how, at the general resurrection of the dead, the wicked will be raised up not to glory, but judgment and condemnation.

But there is only one resurrection of the flesh--and it happens at the end, when Christ returns in glory. But we, who have our inheritance in Christ, partake and share in His resurrection life and power even now, through faith, by the grace of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Many people believe there is to be a rapture (I’m one of them)whereby Christ will translate the faithful living by giving them a new body (devine nature) and then resurrect the faithful dead ones having that same devine nature.
The ones who are to be judged unfaithful or in contempt of Christ are dealt with later.

 

[RandyPNW]

I’m not a historicist who views the events of Revelation as something that has been unfolding since the time of Christ. I view it as the day of the Lord when His judgments are to come upon His people and the nations. Therefore, when I read it, I understand that John was shown what is to take place over a short period of time. And he uses highly symbolic language to describe what he sees to take place. And I don’t think we need to go outside of the Bible in order to understand those symbols.

I haven't suggested we go "outside of the Bible" to explain biblical language and symbolism. So I don't know why you bring that up?

I also agree that John was shown things about a relatively short period of time at the end of the present age, which I call "the Reign of Antichrist." For me, this is a 3.5 year period that ends with a relatively brief period of time in which troops are amassed at Armageddon. An enormous assembly of troops in the millions is a long-term call up! It will take some time. But a nuclear war can be over in an hour.

But neither would I suggest that none of this material includes historical fulfillments of various kinds. For example, in Rev 12 we read of the "man-child" who Satan tried to destroy. That was, I believe, the 1st Coming of Christ who Satan tried to destroy at the cross. The 4 horsemen in the opening of the 1st 4 seals of the book may be something that began to unfold in early Christian history--I'm not sure?

So not everything in Revelation is about the final 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign. But a good part of it is.

So why was this vision given in the early Church, and not late in history, right before the Antichrist rises? Wouldn't it make more sense to share this vision with the Church immediately before it faces this trial?

Of course, Pretribbers would deny that they will even be here to face that trial. However, Antichrist surely cuts the head off of Christians, right? Why wouldn't they be warned, instead of warning Christians living in the 1st century?

The answer, for me, is simple. This endtime history serves as a warning about preliminary antichrists all through NT history. Every generation seems to have its own "Antichrist." And so, the book of Revelation is describing the temperament of the entire age, and not just an endtimes scenario such as Dispensationalists commonly believe.

The 3.5 years under Antichrist will indeed be a literal history that some generation will have to face. But the point is, all generations have to be warned about the character of the present age, that it is not, by nature, conducive to comfort and freedom from suffering. Antichrists will always be around until Christ comes back to put Satan in a bottomless pit.

Clearly, I'm not a Historicist either, but rather a Futurist. However, I'm *not* a Dispensationalist. And Dispensationalists do not "own" the term "Futurist!"

 

[RandyPNW]

Ive been using Biblehub for my studies. And this discussion caused me to look at what commentators have said about the 24 Elders and 4 living creatures. Most of them agree that they represent the church who have been redeemed and who are dressed in white with crowns on their heads. And that they are not angels because the angels are spoken of separately. I found this comment from JFB bible commentary interesting :

“The tabernacle was a "pattern" of the heavenly antitype; the holy place, a figure of HEAVEN ITSELF. Thus Jehovah's throne is represented by the mercy seat in the holiest, the Shekinah-cloud over it. "The seven lamps of fire before the throne" (Re 4:5) are antitypical to the seven-branched candlestick also in the holiest, emblem of the manifold Spirit of God: "the sea of glass" (Re 4:6) corresponds to the molten sea before the sanctuary, wherein the priests washed themselves before entering on their holy service; so introduced here in connection with the redeemed "priests unto God" (compare Note, see on [2687]Re 15:2). The "four living creatures" (Re 4:6, 7) answer to the cherubim over the mercy seat. So the twenty-four throned and crowned elders are typified by the twenty-four chiefs of the twenty-four courses of priests, "Governors of the sanctuary, and governors of God" (1Ch 24:5; 25:1-31).”

He says that the tabernacle of old was a “pattern” of the true tabernacle that is in heaven.
When the door in heaven was opened, John was to see the true tabernacle that the old was a pattern of.
He also says the four living creatures answer to the cherubim over the mercy seat. I also agree with that. Because to pass through the veil into the most holy place where the cherubim were is to pass into heaven’s immortality.
He also recognizes the 24 elders as being the 24 courses of priests as 1 ch 24 mentions.
So, those are there in heaven when the Lamb opens the seals and before the first resurrection.

The reason they are there is because they had been translated or resurrected before the judgement’s of God come upon the earth.

That is Dispensationalism talking. Nothing in the Scriptures or in Revelation is saying that! John's translation is *not* the Church's translation. That is a convenient way to explain why there is no doctrine in the Bible teaching Pretribulationism.

But thanks for sharing the Bible Hub commentaries--I use them all the time. I've known about the representation of the 24 elders as it relates to OT temple worship. My brother informed me of that some time ago. This isn't new information to me.

But I found the rest interesting nonetheless. Just one warning about reading these Hub commentaries. Many of them come from pre-Futurist times in the Church, and reflect Reform Theology thinking. That is, there was no sense of a literal Millennium, and Israel became a type of the Church.

So typology is used a lot. And the literal fulfillment of promises God made to Abraham concerning Israel end-times restoration is completely ignored. Just sayin.'

I never considered the connection of the 4 cherubim to the 2 angels over the mercy seat in the holy of holies. I'll have to think about it, but it seems to have some merit. Angels have always separated those condemned as sinners from God's holy presence, except as a short-term dispensation by mercy. Think: the cherubim standing guard to keep Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

So when Christ, the Lamb, made atonement for our sins, the redeemed were given free access through this "angelic barrier" to get to the Hope of Eternal Life in heaven. We are not there, but our Hope is now secured. I appreciate your sharing. God bless!

 

[One God and Father of All]

The vision of the Throne Room is a heavenly vision--not prediction of a future event! It displays the determination in heaven to provide an atonement that allows the redemption of people. The Lamb, who is Christ, obtained that on the cross. And so it is shown that history from that point on could unfold to show just how people are redeemed in history.

This history is replete with a lot of trouble, because the process of redeeming humanity is messy, and tolerates all kinds of wickedness in the interim. The 4 creatures and 24 elders appear to reflect a kind of angelic order, such as existed under the OT temple worship. Living in Christ activates the angelic realm in our favor, and even if we suffer we are guided to our eternal home.

Yes, I know. My brother informed me some time ago about the order or priests. I don't know if the 4 groups equates to the 4 living creatures?

Heavenly visions can be very figurative or symbolic. It tells us nothing about eschatology, however. It just indicates that the doorway to Salvation has already been opened, and that God is guiding history on to His goal for us.

Well, angels certainly do bring judgments. But the ultimate judgment is at Armageddon and at the Judgment before God's Throne. The Reign of Antichrist is not called "God's Judgment."

I don't think what John was shown was symbolic, but what he was shown was in symbols.
The events themselves are not symbolic but are shown using symbols
The events themselves will actually take place, and John was shown those things in symbols.

 

[RandyPNW]

I don't think what John was shown was symbolic, but what he was shown was in symbols.

I consider that a distinction without a difference. Symbolic visions are symbolic visions. Obviously, these are visions utilizing symbolic language. I certainly am not saying that the visions are depicting non-literal history.

The events themselves are not symbolic but are shown using symbols

Yes. But to know what the history is you have to understand the symbolism. That's the whole point. You cannot tell what the literal history is unless you properly interpret the symbolism.

The events themselves will actually take place, and John was shown those things in symbols.

Nobody here is questioning the literalness of the future history depicted in John's visions. He wasn't enjoying poetry and dramatic story-telling--he was being told, literally, that Antichrist will appear and reign for 3.5 years--a reign that will be terminated at the coming of the Lord. The Church is to be courageous during this time--nothing at all about a premature "catching up" of the saints.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I consider that a distinction without a difference. Symbolic visions are symbolic visions. Obviously, these are visions utilizing symbolic language. I certainly am not saying that the visions are depicting non-literal history.

Yes. But to know what the history is you have to understand the symbolism. That's the whole point. You cannot tell what the literal history is unless you properly interpret the symbolism.

Nobody here is questioning the literalness of the future history depicted in John's visions. He wasn't enjoying poetry and dramatic story-telling--he was being told, literally, that Antichrist will appear and reign for 3.5 years--a reign that will be terminated at the coming of the Lord. The Church is to be courageous during this time--nothing at all about a premature "catching up" of the saints.

The judgment of God’s people and the nations begins before Christ‘s kingdom is established on earth. Christ, his saints, and angels are involved with what is to take place. They are actually bringing what happens.
They are not visible by man to any of this.
It is the four living creatures who show John the 4 horsemen in Rev 6
Those are God’s judgments that had been sealed up for this time. They are not something happing of their own. God is bringing it through Christ, his saints, and angels.

When God decided to punish His people for their wickedness, He sent the nations to do His work. God and His angels were working behind the scenes to accomplish His judgment in bringing those nations.THEY WERE THE ROD OF His anger

 

[One God and Father of All]

Speaking of His people Israel, God says:


Isa 10:1 Woe to those who decree unrighteous decrees,
Who write misfortune,
Which they have prescribed
2To rob the needy of justice,
And to take what is right from the poor of My people,
That widows may be their prey,
And that they may rob the fatherless.
3What will you do in the day of punishment,
And in the desolation which will come from afar?
To whom will you flee for help?
And where will you leave your glory?
4Without Me they shall bow down among the prisoners,
And they shall fall [a]among the slain.”
For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.”

The Assyrian is the beast out of the sea with 10 horns and 7 heads.

And to the Assyrian who will come from afar as the rod of His anger to punish His people, He says:

“5“Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.
8For he says,
‘Are not my princes altogether kings?
9Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11As I have done to Samaria and her idols,
Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?’ ”
12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”

13For he says:

“By the strength of my hand I have done it,
And by my wisdom, for I am prudent;
Also I have removed the boundaries of the people,
And have robbed their treasuries;
So I have put down the inhabitants like a [c]valiant man.
14My hand has found like a nest the riches of the people,
And as one gathers eggs that are left,
I have gathered all the earth;
And there was no one who moved his wing,
Nor opened his mouth with even a peep.”
15Shall the ax boast itself against him who chops with it?
Or shall the saw exalt itself against him who saws with it?
As if a rod could wield itself against those who lift it up,
Or as if a staff could lift up, as if it were not wood!
16Therefore the Lord, the [d]Lord of hosts,
Will send leanness among his fat ones;
And under his glory
He will kindle a burning
Like the burning of a fire.
17So the Light of Israel will be for a fire,
And his Holy One for a flame;
It will burn and devour
His thorns and his briers in one day.
18And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field,
Both soul and body;
And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19Then the rest of the trees of his forest
Will be so few in number
That a child may write them.”

God will save a remnant of His people. The ones who do not bow to the beast and his image.

20And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who [e]defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Many people believe there is to be a rapture (I’m one of them)whereby Christ will translate the faithful living by giving them a new body (devine nature) and then resurrect the faithful dead ones having that same devine nature.
The ones who are to be judged unfaithful or in contempt of Christ are dealt with later.

I don't believe this is a credible position to hold based upon Scripture and the historic faith of the Christian Church.

At the resurrection the dead are raised bodily, the body transformed; and likewise those who are alive at that time will be transformed in the same way. This is the meaning of "we shall not all die, but we shall all be transformed"--the body transformed from being soulish to Spiritual.

As far as Theosis goes (partaking of the Divine nature) that's a larger subject. But Scripture speaks of this as something already at present, St. Peter says we have become partakers of the Divine nature, this of course by grace. It continues into the future, into the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting of course; but our partaking of God's life by grace in His Son, by the power of the Spirit is a reality we experience now and into the future ages of ages.

Scripture, when talking about the future resurrection, speaks of the righteous and the wicked being raised. When Paul talks about resurrection he is usually interested in preaching our hope of resurrection; but that does not mean that the wicked are raised at another time. Christ returns, in glory as Judge, both we who belong to Christ are raised up to glory; but the wicked to horrible judgment.

Not different events--Scripture doesn't permit this view.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[One God and Father of All]

I don't believe this is a credible position to hold based upon Scripture and the historic faith of the Christian Church.

At the resurrection the dead are raised bodily, the body transformed; and likewise those who are alive at that time will be transformed in the same way. This is the meaning of "we shall not all die, but we shall all be transformed"--the body transformed from being soulish to Spiritual.

As far as Theosis goes (partaking of the Divine nature) that's a larger subject. But Scripture speaks of this as something already at present, St. Peter says we have become partakers of the Divine nature, this of course by grace. It continues into the future, into the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting of course; but our partaking of God's life by grace in His Son, by the power of the Spirit is a reality we experience now and into the future ages of ages.

Scripture, when talking about the future resurrection, speaks of the righteous and the wicked being raised. When Paul talks about resurrection he is usually interested in preaching our hope of resurrection; but that does not mean that the wicked are raised at another time. Christ returns, in glory as Judge, both we who belong to Christ are raised up to glory; but the wicked to horrible judgment.

Not different events--Scripture doesn't permit this view.

-CryptoLutheran

You understand the scripture differently than I do. Isn’t it wonderful.

 

[RandyPNW]

The judgment of God’s people and the nations begins before Christ‘s kingdom is established on earth. Christ, his saints, and angels are involved with what is to take place. They are actually bringing what happens.

I don't see that. Christ himself seemed to indicate that his Judgment was awaiting an eschatological climax. He did not come to "judge before the time." He came to show patience and forbearance. Even though God is always in the acting of judging sin, He shows tolerance for it while trying to bring sinners to repentance.

The Dispensataionlist sense of God's Judgment being the time of Antichrist's Reign is a false equivalency. It is not the Final Judgment, but rather, signs of God's displeasure just as it has been shown throughout history. We should not conflate Final Judgment with preliminary indications of God's judgment in history.

They are not visible by man to any of this.
It is the four living creatures who show John the 4 horsemen in Rev 6
Those are God’s judgments that had been sealed up for this time. They are not something happing of their own. God is bringing it through Christ, his saints, and angels.

When God decided to punish His people for their wickedness, He sent the nations to do His work. God and His angels were working behind the scenes to accomplish His judgment in bringing those nations.THEY WERE THE ROD OF His anger

I don't disagree with God's use of invisible agents in bringing historical judgments. That isn't an issue with me.

God shows displeasure and various forms of judgment when dealing with Antichrist during his reign. But this isn't the eschatological Final Judgment that the Bible warns against.

To fear God's final sentencing is the big thing--a judgment that leads to the 2nd Death. That is what men should fear, and not simply death by various means.

The book of Revelation refers to Final Judgment as the Battle of Armageddon, where both Satan and Antichrist are defeated on earth. And it refers, most importantly, to Eternal Judgment, which is God's sentencing of angels and men to Eternal Death. This is a final separation between them and the blessed life of living in the presence of God forever.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I don't see that. Christ himself seemed to indicate that his Judgment was awaiting an eschatological climax. He did not come to "judge before the time." He came to show patience and forbearance. Even though God is always in the acting of judging sin, He shows tolerance for it while trying to bring sinners to repentance.

The Dispensataionlist sense of God's Judgment being the time of Antichrist's Reign is a false equivalency. It is not the Final Judgment, but rather, signs of God's displeasure just as it has been shown throughout history. We should not conflate Final Judgment with preliminary indications of God's judgment in history.

I don't disagree with God's use of invisible agents in bringing historical judgments. That isn't an issue with me.

Just as He has done in the past to judge His people, He will do again. But this time it will be Christ through whom these judgments come.
John, seeing the future, sees the Lamb opening the seals which contain God’s judgments. Everything spoken of after that occurs under Christ supervision.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, “Come and see“2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

What is John called to “come and see”?

Psa 66:5 “Come and see“ the works of God;
He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.

Pas 46:8
8 “Come, behold“ the works of the Lord,
Who has made desolations in the earth.

 

[One God and Father of All]

The king who sits on the white horse is the little horn of Daniel 7 and the red dragon of Revelation. He is working in conspiracy with the Assyrian who comes from the north to be the rod of God’s anger to punish His people for they are worshipping the beast and his image. All but the 144,000 Of the twelve tribes.
When the people rejected God as their King, God said that He would raise up a king unto them and that they would cry out in that day.

1 Sam 8:1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

6But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. 8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. 9Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

10So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. 11And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest [a]young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”

This king is the king on the white horse who sets out to conquer The little horn of Dan. 7 and red dragon

 

[One God and Father of All]

Eze 28 speaks of this same king who sets out to conquer under the name “king of Tyre”

1The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2“Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is lifted[a] up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”
6‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
9“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’ ”