Death Penalty

[Radrook]

what are you talking about?
you are just throwing out wild accusations that are lacking in charity with nothing to back them up


you said that parts of the bible were more allegorical
that is true
but I am not using any allegorical work form the bible to support my view of the death penalty

the Crusades were brave men of Europe going to defend Christians from ISIS and retake the Holy Land in the name of God
were mistakes made? sure, but there are mistakes in every war
look at how some of the allied forces acted in WWII
or would you rather have just had Islam spread across the globe unchecked in the medieval world?

also I did not mean 1,000 years before Aquinas
I just meant for over 1,000 years in general
we can also look at Christian Kingdoms in the Renaissance and Early Modern period

I didn't say any of the things you say nor believe any of the things your are claiming that I believe. Yikes!

Also, you are ignoring many of the basic principles of Christianity in favor of personal preferences even to the point of approving of bloody warfare and being part of the world's political and military struggles something Jesus and first century Christianity clearly disapproved of.

 

[Rhamiel]

where do first century Christians say the State does not have the obligation to execute criminals?

i already quoted St. Paul to you
did you just ignore his words in Scripture?

 

[StevenMerten]

When looking at Jesus' will on when to kill, we have to look at Jesus Command to His Apostolic Successors to use spiritual death capital punishment to protect His Church. Jesus Commands His Church that if her hand, foot or eye, is her down fall, she is to cut it off or gouge it out and throw it into hell! To ‘cut off’ a portion of the body of people is used 90 times in scripture to mean physical or spiritual death to the person or persons ‘cut off’. Jesus says it is better for His Church to enter into heaven blind and maimed than to have her whole body pulled into hell by evil doers. Jesus blows the Holy Spirit upon His Apostles and swears that whom ever they call upon Him to bind to sin on earth, He will bind to sin in heaven. The binding of sins, by Jesus' lips, is a spiritual death weapon. Thus we have Catholic Church Anathema. Jesus wills His Apostolic Successors to use Anathema, which is Jesus' lips binding evil doers to their sins, to protect the Church. One person going to hell, due to Catholic Church Anathema, is more death, eternal death, than all the years of physical life cut short from all the physical capital punishment and wars in human history combined.

Quoted from: Throwing Stones

NAB MAT 16:13
Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Then he strictly ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

NAB REV 1:16
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: "There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world."

NAB ISA 11:4
The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

NAB JOH 20:20
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. "Peace be with you," he said again. "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then he breathed on them and said: "Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

NAB MAT 18:5 Jesus is speaking.

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

NAB LEV 20:1
The LORD said to Moses, tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people; for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. .'"
​

NAB MAR 9:40
Anyone who is not against us is with us. Any man who gives you a drink of water because you belong to Christ will not, I assure you, go without his reward. But it would be better if anyone who leads astray one of these simple believers were to be plunged in the sea with a great millstone fastened around his neck.

"If your hand is your difficulty, cut it off! Better for you to enter life maimed than to keep both hands and enter Gehenna with its unquenchable fire. If your foot is your undoing, cut it off! Better for you to enter life crippled than to be thrown into Gehenna with both feet. If your eye is your downfall, tear it out! Better you enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to be thrown with both eyes into Gehenna, where 'the worm dies not and the fire is never extingusihed.'

ANATHEMA
In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."...

...He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema
Note: All emphasis in bolding and underlining has been added. Follow New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia link for full text.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The death penalty even applied to killing of the unborn:

A complete misreading of the text, which refers to death of the adult parties, not the fetus; indeed, the loss of the fetus is merely a fineable offense.

 

[RDKirk]

The reason for the death penalty established right after the Flood and mentioned in Genesis is murder.

The right to execute depends on justifiable cause. If the state decides that it wants to execute unjustly then it has no right to execute at all. Neither do Christians who don't abide by the justice requirements.

The fact that the state is inherently unjust is a continuous theme through scripture. The state has no "right" to execute, the state has the "power" to execute--there is a difference between "right" and "power" that was taught in Constitution 101, and also has scriptural relevance.

Only God has the "right" to execute.

 

[RDKirk]

Good thing my belief in the morality of the death penalty does not rest on the Creation Story or the Flood Story

It is based on the Law given to Moses, how it was implemented through the history of Israel, the writings of St. Paul (Romans 13:4 Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. )
The writings of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, how traditional Christian nations have had law and order for over 1,000 years and common sense

You have a wonderful story about our Lord taken out of context and modernist liberal theologians to back up your view

If you're going to use the OT as your standard of justice, then you also have to use the OT rules for a just verdict: Two or more eye witnesses to prove every crime. Nothing different, nothing less.

 

[Rhamiel]

If you're going to use the OT as your standard of justice, then you also have to use the OT rules for a just verdict: Two or more eye witnesses to prove every crime. Nothing different, nothing less.

I am not a Judaizer who mindlessly apes everything done in the OT
I was showing that the People of God have consistently seen the need for the Death Penalty to be used at times, not that we need to adopt every iota of OT Law

Romans 13:6 talks about civil authorities as "servants of God"
but you should read the entire chapter to get a better idea.

 

[RDKirk]

I am not a Judaizer who mindlessly apes everything done in the OT
I was showing that the People of God have consistently seen the need for the Death Penalty to be used at times, not that we need to adopt every iota of OT Law

Romans 13:6 talks about civil authorities as "servants of God"
but you should read the entire chapter to get a better idea.

I've read it. In fact, lived it. Been an alien, pilgrim and sojourner before. Been told to "pay their taxes, obey their laws, and honor their officials" before. And I yet realized I was not a citizen of their country, but was a citizen of the country from which I was sent on a mission of limited duration. I did not go native and think that their government was my government.

 

[Open Heart]

I didn't say any of the things you say nor believe any of the things your are claiming that I believe. Yikes!

Also, you are ignoring many of the basic principles of Christianity in favor of personal preferences even to the point of approving of bloody warfare and being part of the world's political and military struggles something Jesus and first century Christianity clearly disapproved of.

Jesus didn't say anything about the morality of war.

War can be just or unjust. If I'm going to war because I want another nation's land, that is an unjust war. But let's say there are barbarians riding into my village to take my land, rape my women, kill the men, and take the children into slavery. THEN it is not only just, it is the only moral response to defend one's self and one people from the Barbarians. And every age has such barbarians. In our time, they are called ISIS.

 

[SolomonVII]

Recently there has been a real push by the Pope and Bishops to make the official Catholic stance to be anti-death penalty. How do you all feel about this?

I think it is a big mistake.

For 2000 years the Church has supported the death penalty. It is based upon the Pentateuch , where God himself prescribes the death penalty for certain offenses such as murder. How can life imprisonment be a just penalty for a serial torturer and murderer of little children? We can argue when the death penalty should be used, but I think it is a mistake to argue if.

I think the decision to be pro or anti death penalty is best left up to the individual Catholic and their own conscience.

I think it is a big mistake too.
It is not a mistake to believe that the death penalty is wrong and work to eradicate it from society. That is a legitimate effort.
But to make this a part of the official doctrine of the Church contradicts previous biblical teachings, which are Church teachings too.

We all have our own political sensitivities on the issue of the day. The way to advance them is to advance them through argument over the merits and disadvantages of any given policy. Playing the "God card" to shut down the discussion cheapens the faith. I think that it is an example of using the name of the Lord in vain even, because it is a means of advancing ones own political agenda as if it is God's agenda.

 

[Radrook]

If you're going to use the OT as your standard of justice, then you also have to use the OT rules for a just verdict: Two or more eye witnesses to prove every crime. Nothing different, nothing less.

True, the Bible is clear on that point!

Galatians 5:3
Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole Law.

Galatians 3:10 ►
New International Version
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Romans 6:14 ►
New International Version
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Sam91]

1. Ending someone's life also ends their chance of getting saved.
2. It's God's right to avenge.
3. The person will experience eternal damnation if they don't have salvation.

I do not wish to get drawn into this debate. As I have no thoughts on it and living in a country without the death penalty it doesn't affect me. Wanted to throw the above into consideration in though

 

[Radrook]

Jesus didn't say anything about the morality of war.

War can be just or unjust. If I'm going to war because I want another nation's land, that is an unjust war. But let's say there are barbarians riding into my village to take my land, rape my women, kill the men, and take the children into slavery. THEN it is not only just, it is the only moral response to defend one's self and one people from the Barbarians. And every age has such barbarians. In our time, they are called ISIS.

That's called "cherry picking" or "card stacking" or ""selective blindness" in order to justify what is considered preferable.

The fact remains that Jesus clearly told his disciples not to be part of this world and not to live by the sword and that his disciples understood it to mean that they should not participate as soldiers in the Roman war machine for approx. 300 years. Only after the apostasy set in did they began cutting other humans, including fellow Christians, to pieces just as the pagans were happily doing.

True, indeed, certain circumstances require self defensive measures. However, that isn't what Jesus was referring to when he told his disciples to refrain from being part of this a world which is clearly still under Satanic control.

Luke 4:6
5Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6“I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory, he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. 7So if You worship me, it will all be Yours

Other scriptures confirm that Satan was telling the truth about his authority over this world.

John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.

The Apostle Paul tells us that Satan is the god of this world:

2 Cor 4.In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

That is why such governments are scheduled for destruction and replacement by God's Kingdom:

Daniel 2:44 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

No wonder then that Jesus spoke against placing oneself at the service of these worldly Satanically controlled governments to do their bidding at a moment's notice regardless of motive or goal as has been customary with those erroneously claiming to be his followers ever since Constantine proclaimed Christianity the Roman Empire's official religion.

That servile mentality, or friendship with the world against which Jesus warned, has led such professed Christians to mindlessly slaughter other Christians, including women children the aged and the sickl via carpet bombing of civilians such as happened at Dresden Germany and Nagasaki during WW2 while priests who claiming to be Jesus' priests sanctimoniously prayed to him for success.

No, God does not approve of wanton bloodshed which is characteristic of those who are led by the flesh and not by his holy spirit. That is why he tells us in the following scripture:

Isaiah 1:15
"So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.

So I guess we differ in opinion on that point.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus didn't say anything about the morality of war.

"That is not the way it was in the beginning."

That is Jesus' overarching statement about all morality in the world today. Just because the Lord permits us to manage unrighteousness in this fallen world does make unrighteousness less unrighteous.

War is always unrighteous and the result of unrighteousness.

War can be just or unjust. If I'm going to war because I want another nation's land, that is an unjust war. But let's say there are barbarians riding into my village to take my land, rape my women, kill the men, and take the children into slavery. THEN it is not only just, it is the only moral response to defend one's self and one people from the Barbarians. And every age has such barbarians. In our time, they are called ISIS.

So which war has America fought in the last 50 years that was just even by your definition? No, actually it's not ISIS, because ISIS can just as easily be pointed out as a result of Westerners "riding into my village to take my land, rape my women, kill the men, and take the children into slavery" in the 19th and 20th centuries. Nobody's got clean hands.

 

[Open Heart]

"That is not the way it was in the beginning."

We live in a fallen world. As soon as sin entered, one people would covet the land and resources of another, and make war. It was justified for those attacked to defend themselves.

 

[Open Heart]

So which war has America fought in the last 50 years that was just even by your definition? No, actually it's not ISIS, because ISIS can just as easily be pointed out as a result of Westerners "riding into my village to take my land, rape my women, kill the men, and take the children into slavery" in the 19th and 20th centuries. Nobody's got clean hands.

This is hogwash.

 

[Open Heart]

So which war has America fought in the last 50 years that was just even by your definition?

I don't have to find something in the last 50 years to prove my point. I only have to find one example ANYWHERE in history to prove it. Let's take Japan in WW2. They were convinced they were better than anyone. They coveted land and resources. They wanted nothing less than a greater empire. They were immoral in their treatment of civilians, torture, enslavement, rape, etc. They attacked first for all the worst of reasons. It was not only just to defend ourselves, it would have been immoral not to have defended ourselves.

 

[Open Heart]

That's called "cherry picking" or "card stacking" or ""selective blindness" in order to justify what is considered preferable.

LOL No its not. The Bible is very strong on God being a God of justice. It presents very strongly an ethic of life being valuable. You cannot have such an ethic without defending those who are being unjustly being made war against. "Do not stand idly by your brother's blood." That's a commandment. Lev 19;16

May I make a suggestion? This thread is about the death penalty, and arguing about the morality of war is way off topic. If you want to continue this discussion, perhaps you can open a new thread on it, and place a notice on my profile page so that I know to look for it. Thanks.

 

[Radrook]

LOL No its not. The Bible is very strong on God being a God of justice. It presents very strongly an ethic of life being valuable. You cannot have such an ethic without defending those who are being unjustly being made war against. "Do not stand idly by your brother's blood." That's a commandment. Lev 19;16

May I make a suggestion? This thread is about the death penalty, and arguing about the morality of war is way off topic. If you want to continue this discussion, perhaps you can open a new thread on it, and place a notice on my profile page so that I know to look for it. Thanks.

But for approx. 300 years, three centuries, early Christianity, which followed what Jesus and his Apostles had taught very closely, totally disagreed with your view.

The Early Christian View of War and Military Service

"During its first three centuries of existence, the Christian church was opposed to war and others forms of violence. Christian opposition to war early expanded into a denial of rightness of all coercive action on the part of the civil power. Thus arose that form of conscientious objection which has been designated as political non-participation."7

"For many years many Christian regarded services in the army as inconsistent with their profession. Some held that for them all bloodshed, whether as soldiers or executioners, was unlawful."8

"During a considerable period after the death of Christ, it is certain...that his followers believed He had forbidden war, and that, in consequence of this belief many of them refused to engage in it, whatever were the consequences, whether reproach, or imprisonment, or death. These facts are indisputable: ‘It is easy,’ says a learned writer of the 17th century, ‘to obscure the sun at midday, as to deny that the primitive Christian renounced all revenge and war.’ Of all Christian writers of the second century, there is not one who notices the subject, who does not hold it to be unlawful for a Christian to bear arms."9

REFERENCE SOURCES

BOOKS: Appleton, E.R. -An Outline of Religion Cadoux, Cecil J. -Christian Pacifism Re-examined (1940) Cadoux, Cecil J. -Early Christian Attitude Toward War (1919) Cadoux, Cecil J. -Early Church and the World (1925) Dymond, Jonathon-An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity (1892) Ferrero & Barballo-A Short History of Rome Fischer, George P. -Beginners of Christianity (1877) Latourette, Kenneth S. -History of the Expansion of Christianity in the First five Centuries Schaff-History of the Christian Church Tolstoy, Leo-The law of Love and the Law of Violence (1948)

The Early Christian View of War and Military Service

So it comes down to choosing between your opinion or what Early Christianity believed right? I think that the right choice is more than obvious.

Unfortunately those who like to have their ears tickled will very often make the wrong choice in such matters.

2 Timothy 4:3 ►
New International Version
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

BTW
About your suggestion that I am off topic, my original statement was that the death penalty was originally instituted right after the Flood-a statement you misunderstood as an ignorant attempt to base the death penalty on the Genesis Creation Account. So if the discussion went off topic, it wasn't due to my initial post.

 

[Open Heart]

It is not a mistake to believe that the death penalty is wrong and work to eradicate it from society. That is a legitimate effort.

I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable; I realize good people can have different opinions on this. But how do you reconcile your opinion with the concept of justice? Justice being a life for a life. Please note that I'm only an advocate of the death penalty in cases of aggravated murder where there is NO doubt of guilt, ie a confession or 12 bodies buried in their back yard...