Death Penalty

[Open Heart]

Recently there has been a real push by the Pope and Bishops to make the official Catholic stance to be anti-death penalty. How do you all feel about this?

I think it is a big mistake.

For 2000 years the Church has supported the death penalty. It is based upon the Pentateuch , where God himself prescribes the death penalty for certain offenses such as murder. How can life imprisonment be a just penalty for a serial torturer and murderer of little children? We can argue when the death penalty should be used, but I think it is a mistake to argue if.

I think the decision to be pro or anti death penalty is best left up to the individual Catholic and their own conscience.

 

[frienden thalord]

I can answer that best by asking who KNOWS the law better man or God.
How should man execute the law.
well, as always I say lets look at who KNOWS that answer far better than we mere men who may think we the JUDGE
of the law, BUT only GOD is.
This woman was caught in the act of adultery
now the law says we should stone her, but what sayest thou.
and of course it was to trick him.
He drew as though he heard them not.
but then HE , JESUS, not mans mind , BUT JESUS
said this. LET HE who is without SIN among YOU first cast a stone at her.
now , notice he did not say DONT , because the law had said the death penalty.
But man, women and all who have ears
WHAT did HE say...........Let HE who is without SIN.
FOR VEANGEANCE IS GODS, and since it aint ours..........let us not be as the Pharisees of old
who though well, we wont put him to death , we will have the law of the gentiles do it.
WHO HAD the greater sin. EXACTLY
we can vote for the death penalty telling ourselves but hey we did not actual kill the one.
WRONG you supported it , you might as well have done the deed.
NOW LET THAT SINK in deep peoples.
real deep. OUR kingdom is not of this world, let them do as they do.
we just offer forgivness. and we rebuke and correct by all means
we follow CHRIST , not men who contradict Christ . not leaders who contradict Christ.
CHRIST and men who follow ONLY HIS pattern. be blessed. oh I pray this sink in.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Recently there has been a real push by the Pope and Bishops to make the official Catholic stance to be anti-death penalty. How do you all feel about this?

I think it is a big mistake.

For 2000 years the Church has supported the death penalty. It is based upon the Pentateuch , where God himself prescribes the death penalty for certain offenses such as murder. How can life imprisonment be a just penalty for a serial torturer and murderer of little children? We can argue when the death penalty should be used, but I think it is a mistake to argue if.

I think the decision to be pro or anti death penalty is best left up to the individual Catholic and their own conscience.

The death penalty is no big deal but the bigger deal is an honest, uncorrupted police and court system.

 

[RDKirk]

Recently there has been a real push by the Pope and Bishops to make the official Catholic stance to be anti-death penalty. How do you all feel about this?

I think it is a big mistake.

For 2000 years the Church has supported the death penalty. It is based upon the Pentateuch , where God himself prescribes the death penalty for certain offenses such as murder. How can life imprisonment be a just penalty for a serial torturer and murderer of little children? We can argue when the death penalty should be used, but I think it is a mistake to argue if.

I think the decision to be pro or anti death penalty is best left up to the individual Catholic and their own conscience.

My understanding is that Catholic leadership does not deny God's permission to human states to use capital punishment, but takes into regard the fact that they all do it to great measure unjustly and it's almost never actually necessary...so the avenue toward least unrighteousness is to refrain from it.

Just because gave Moses permission doesn't mean the permitted act is righteous. God gave permission for divorce in the same law that He gave permission for capital punishment...but the same God said "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked" as said, "I hate divorce."

We don't show up at divorce courts to urge judges to grant quick divorces; why show up at courts to urge judges to grant quick executions?

 

[FangirlingGOD]

I can answer that best by asking who KNOWS the law better man or God.
How should man execute the law.
well, as always I say lets look at who KNOWS that answer far better than we mere men who may think we the JUDGE
of the law, BUT only GOD is.
This woman was caught in the act of adultery
now the law says we should stone her, but what sayest thou.
and of course it was to trick him.
He drew as though he heard them not.
but then HE , JESUS, not mans mind , BUT JESUS
said this. LET HE who is without SIN among YOU first cast a stone at her.
now , notice he did not say DONT , because the law had said the death penalty.
But man, women and all who have ears
WHAT did HE say...........Let HE who is without SIN.
FOR VEANGEANCE IS GODS, and since it aint ours..........let us not be as the Pharisees of old
who though well, we wont put him to death , we will have the law of the gentiles do it.
WHO HAD the greater sin. EXACTLY
we can vote for the death penalty telling ourselves but hey we did not actual kill the one.
WRONG you supported it , you might as well have done the deed.
NOW LET THAT SINK in deep peoples.
real deep. OUR kingdom is not of this world, let them do as they do.
we just offer forgivness. and we rebuke and correct by all means
we follow CHRIST , not men who contradict Christ . not leaders who contradict Christ.
CHRIST and men who follow ONLY HIS pattern. be blessed. oh I pray this sink in.

This exactly!! I could not agree more

 

[frienden thalord]

This exactly!! I could not agree more

PRAISE the LORD fangirling

 

[Hamlet7768]

I think the simple fact that innocent people have been and probably will continue to be victims of execution is reason enough to dispense with capital punishment altogether. Spend the money on better prisons, to keep the prisoners in and rehabilitate them if possible. That should be our goal. The evil of this world is sufficient without adding to it by killing.

 

[Rhamiel]

Of course the Church has supported the death penalty in the past

You could argue that it is no longer needed in 1rst World Nations but generally issues of policing and punishing criminals are left up to the laity

Since so few are exocuted in Christian nations I am not even sure why it is brought up
Acceptance of homosexual actions is a far more widespread issue

 

[Radrook]

Apparently God sees nothing wrong with the death penalty in reference to murder.

The death penalty preceded the Law of Moses and was established immediately after the Flood.

Genesis 9:6 ►
New International Version
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Then later it was included in the Mosaic Law Covenant.

Exodus 20:13
"You shall not murder.

Exodus 21:12
"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 24:17
'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.

The death penalty even applied to killing of the unborn:

Exodus 21: 22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,…
New American Standard Bible

 

[Open Heart]

My understanding is that Catholic leadership does not deny God's permission to human states to use capital punishment, but takes into regard the fact that they all do it to great measure unjustly and it's almost never actually necessary...so the avenue toward least unrighteousness is to refrain from it.

The Church is pushing for an absolute ban. Even for serial killers who CONFESS to their crimes.

 

[Open Heart]

This woman was caught in the act of adultery
now the law says we should stone her, but what sayest thou.

It was a mob chasing her. She had not been tried in a court of law.

 

[RDKirk]

The Church is pushing for an absolute ban. Even for serial killers who CONFESS to their crimes.

Well, I don't know what the actual words you're paraphrasing actually are, but I'd point out that "confessions" are not always freely made.

 

[Radrook]

The Church is pushing for an absolute ban. Even for serial killers who CONFESS to their crimes.

The Church also accepts claims concerning Genesis being myth or totally metaphorical contrary to what Jesus and the apostles believed. So it comes down in choosing between what the church pushes for and what the Bible clearly tells us. I'll go with the latter.

 

[RDKirk]

The Church also accepts claims concerning Genesis being myth or totally metaphorical contrary to what Jesus and the apostles believed. So it comes down in choosing between what the church pushes for and what the Bible clearly tells us. I'll go with the latter.

So who do you think should actually perform the executions? The church or the state?

States, being inherently sinful, are mostly not going to do it right.

So if the state decides it's the Christians who are the troublemakers that "need executin'," then what?

 

[Radrook]

So who do you think should actually perform the executions? The church or the state? And if the state decides it's the Christians who are the troublemakers who "need executin'," then what?

The reason for the death penalty established right after the Flood and mentioned in Genesis is murder.

The right to execute depends on justifiable cause. If the state decides that it wants to execute unjustly then it has no right to execute at all. Neither do Christians who don't abide by the justice requirements.

 

[Rhamiel]

The Church also accepts claims concerning Genesis being myth or totally metaphorical contrary to what Jesus and the apostles believed. So it comes down in choosing between what the church pushes for and what the Bible clearly tells us. I'll go with the latter.

Good thing my belief in the morality of the death penalty does not rest on the Creation Story or the Flood Story

It is based on the Law given to Moses, how it was implemented through the history of Israel, the writings of St. Paul (Romans 13:4 Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. )
The writings of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, how traditional Christian nations have had law and order for over 1,000 years and common sense

You have a wonderful story about our Lord taken out of context and modernist liberal theologians to back up your view

 

[Open Heart]

Good thing my belief in the morality of the death penalty does not rest on the Creation Story or the Flood Story

Here here!

 

[Radrook]

Good thing my belief in the morality of the death penalty does not rest on the Creation Story or the Flood Story

It is based on the Law given to Moses, how it was implemented through the history of Israel, the writings of St. Paul (Romans 13:4 Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. )
The writings of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, how traditional Christian nations have had law and order for over 1,000 years and common sense

You have a wonderful story about our Lord taken out of context and modernist liberal theologians to back up your view

In order for me to accept that Christendom had law and order for an entire 1000 years prior to Aquinas, I would need to shut my eyes to a host of Satanic behavior done in the name of Christ by the Church and its gullible members just as you are doing.

The First Crusade arose after a call to arms in a 1095 sermon by Pope Urban II, in which he urged military support for the Byzantine Empire and its Emperor, Alexios I, who needed reinforcements for his conflict with westward migrating Turks who were colonising Anatolia

Urban's wider strategy may have been to unite the Eastern and Western branches of Christendom, which had been divided since the East–West Schism of 1054, and to establish himself as head of the unified Church.

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Since Thomas Aquinas was born in 1225 – and died in 7 March 1274, AD, he was fully aware of such a schisms and crusades during the thousand years of peace you say he speaks of. If so, then both his idea of peace and yours are rather totally unscriptural.

Thomas Aquinas - Wikipedia


Furthermore, it is a well-known fact that the period you call the epitome of spiritual church admiration is the time during which Christendom adopted the ways of the Roman empire, ceased to be neutral in its worldly bloody conflicts, practiced baptism at the edge of sword and incorporated many pagan practices into its theology in order to swell its ranks with pagan converts at the cost of warping original Christian teaching into grotesque imitation of what had been h9oly6.

So again your notion of admirable behavior is considerably off kilter by biblical standards-especially those which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ told us to follow closely.

1 Peter 2:21 ►
New International Version
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Flood account and Creation account?

I didn't say that the Flood account and Genesis creation events which are recorded prior to are the moral justification for death penalty. The reason for mentioning the chronology of death penalty historical inception has an entirely different purpose that I assumed would be obvious to those basically familiar with the Bible.

I support who? Liberals? LOL!

I am actually not even familiar with any specific liberal theologians or any specific liberal theology for that matter except for the occasional attempts they make at justifying abortion and same-sex marriages which convinced me that it is a disrespectful approach to scriptural exegesis.

Leviticus 18:22 ►
New International Version
"'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Exodus 21:
22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,…

So I am definitely not a supporter of it but a critic instead.

So you are wayyyy off base on both presumptuous, ill-based accounts.

 

[Rhamiel]

and incorporated many pagan practices into its theology in order to swell its ranks with pagan converts at the cost of warping original Christian teaching into grotesque imitation of what had been h9oly6

what are you talking about?
you are just throwing out wild accusations that are lacking in charity with nothing to back them up

I didn't say that the Flood account and Genesis creation events which are recorded prior to are the moral justification for death penalty. The reason for mentioning the chronology of death penalty historical inception has an entirely different purpose that I assumed would be obvious to those basically familiar with the Bible.

you said that parts of the bible were more allegorical
that is true
but I am not using any allegorical work form the bible to support my view of the death penalty

the Crusades were brave men of Europe going to defend Christians from ISIS and retake the Holy Land in the name of God
were mistakes made? sure, but there are mistakes in every war
look at how some of the allied forces acted in WWII
or would you rather have just had Islam spread across the globe unchecked in the medieval world?

also I did not mean 1,000 years before Aquinas
I just meant for over 1,000 years in general
we can also look at Christian Kingdoms in the Renaissance and Early Modern period

 

[StevenMerten]

I have spent a great deal of time seeking out Jesus' will on when to kill. We have to take killing to protect the inocent to the basics.

So a terrorist is smashing the Pope's head with a lead pipe. A Swiss Guard sniper has the terrorist in his cross hairs. What is Jesus will for the Swiss Guard sniper to do? What are the Pope's orders for Swiss Guards to do in this senario? The Vatican has soverign nation status. The Pope can send Swiss Guards back to Switzerland, and give the order for all Italian police to stay out of Vatican City. This would insure that the Pope never killed anyone with his armed forces. Would Jesus tell the Swiss Guard sniper to put his gun down and go have a donut while the Pope is murdered by the terrorist? What is Jesus will on when to kill?