Covid Vaccines Required

[expos4ever]

Yes, which is why I am demanding 'good reason' from the qualia of ethics. Do you have a problem with ethical justification? Do you believe your moral beliefs do not require 'good reason'?

Which carries the burden of proof? The one claiming a moral obligation and an action imperative or the one who carries the status quo?

How do material facts translate into imperatives without 'ought' premises? And if you do have 'ought premises, how do you derive them? And why should I agree with your derivation? What qualia do you have for your means of derivation?

And how do you apply ambiguous causal chains towards moral liability, where action and consequence is far removed and not obvious?

All of these questions are what constitute 'good reason'.

'Good reason' is not a synonym for your personal moral dogmas.

I would like some ranch dressing to go with this word salad.

 

[expos4ever]

Just as a heads-up, I'm blocking you for that assertion. I am serious.

Fair enough, I assure you that I am not blocking you and I will no doubt be kept busy correcting your misinformation.

 

[expos4ever]

A sin of omission would require there to be a moral obligation in the first place, which for the last year and some months has not been demonstrated beyond the assertion of unjustified dogma - without so much a sense that imperatives require justification at all.

Pasting together big words does not an argument make.

Are you suggesting that we are not ethically compelled to take actions that we know will protect others, especially if such action poses almost no risk to us?

 

[expos4ever]

It's a matter of conscience and if one questions highly and are strongly doubting the word of people in the medical field they have not sinned.

This is not very convincing. It seems like you are trying to evade moral culpability for getting vaccinated by questioning the credibility of the guidance from medical experts. That seems reasonable on the surface.

Here is the problem: I could apply your same thinking and suggest that I am not obliged to refrain from driving while dead drunk on the grounds that I question the mainstream medical opinion that alcohol impairs the ability to safely operate a car.

In the case of covid, the evidence is clear. Based on what we actually know, and what we can reasonably expect, the vaccine protects yourself and others at very small risk.

You therefore do have a moral obligation to get vaccinated.

 

[expos4ever]

....it has been well validated that asymptomatic transmission has never been and could not be a driver of this pandemic.

Don't believe this - evidence please.

 

[expos4ever]

This is an example of a particular-universal barrier violation. If all other vaccines did lower death rates, then it still wouldn't be the case that this one does.

Nonsense, seasoned with more big words to bamboozle the impressionable.

You appear to be constructing a strawman - claiming that we are suggesting that the covid vaccine is successful solely because other vaccines have been successful.

No one is saying this.

And there have been plenty historically that increased death rates directly and perhaps some that have done so indirectly - even when the government isn't doing unethical human experimentation... like with syphilis.

Evidence please - which vaccines have increased death rates?

 

[Psalm 27]

Both the infertility and cancer issues are myths. Here's some real medical opinion on both. The second source (7 Myths) also mentions the issues of fertility and quick development.

Fertility Is it true? Do COVID-19 vaccines cause infertility? | Australian Government Department of Health

Do COVID-19 vaccines cause infertility?
There is no scientific evidence to support this. None of the COVID-19 vaccines currently under review by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) cause sterilisation/infertility.

The TGA will not approve a vaccine for use in Australia unless it is safe and effective. This includes impacts on fertility.

The theory that COVID-19 vaccines cause infertility is based on the disproven idea that one of the spike proteins in COVID-19 and the Syncytin-1 protein (which help placenta development) are the same. They are not.

The COVID-19 vaccine, like other vaccines, works by training our bodies to develop antibodies to fight against the virus that causes COVID-19, to prevent future illness.

There is currently no evidence that antibodies formed from COVID-19 vaccination cause any problems with pregnancy, including the development of the placenta.

In addition, there is no evidence suggesting that fertility problems are a side effect of ANY vaccine.

People who are trying to become pregnant now or who plan to try in the future may receive the COVID-19 vaccine when it becomes available to them.

​

Cancer Fact Check: 7 Persistent Myths about COVID-19 Vaccines | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (mskcc.org)

Myth: The mRNA vaccines change your DNA and could cause cancer.
Truth: None of the vaccines interact with or alter your DNA in any way, and therefore cannot cause cancer.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is not the same as DNA and cannot be combined with DNA to change your genetic code. Here’s now mRNA vaccines actually work:

The mRNA vaccines use a tiny piece of the coronavirus’ genetic code to teach your immune system how to make a protein that will trigger an immune response if you get infected. The mRNA is fragile, so after it delivers the instructions to your cells, it breaks down and disappears from the body (in about 72 hours). The mRNA never even goes into the nucleus of the cell — the part that contains your DNA.

Therefore, there is no truth to the myth that somehow the mRNA vaccine could inactivate the genes that suppress tumors.​

‘No scientific evidence’ ...time will tell

 

[expos4ever]

‘No scientific evidence’ ...time will tell

With respect to a connection to infertility, Occam appear to be arguing that the very notion that the vaccine could cause infertility is based on a premise that has been shown to be incorrect. With respect to the matter of cancer, the argument is that Messenger RNA (mRNA) is not the same as DNA and cannot be combined with DNA to change your genetic code.

In any event, I want to address this "time will tell" line as it is very frequently deployed by opponents to the vaccine. It has a superficial ring of wisdom to it - who would not want to wait to gather more data?

The problem, of course, is that Covid is here right now - we do not need to "wait and see" what damage it can do.

Sometimes life puts us in a situation where we have to choose between 2 options, each of which carries risks. In the covid scenario, the choice seems clear - getting vaccinated now is the wiser choice.

 

[Sodafox]

Misleading, of course. What you are not telling us, and what needs to be said, is that even with a 99% survival rate, health care systems will be, and indeed have been, overwhelmed by this pandemic, putting all sorts of other people at risk.

Besides, this 99% figure is a psychological trick. Sure, 99% sounds like almost 100%. But would you get on a plane if you knew that one out of every 100 planes blows up in the sky? No, you would not.

In the USA, this 99% figure still translates into over 600,000 human lives gone.

Heart disease also kills approximately 600k in the US each year. Do you also advocate to mandate a ban on fast/junk food?

Using your own words, are those people who are overweight and obese not also overwhelming healthcare systems? Do they not injure their caretakers simply by being too heavy to lift when needed? Do they not leave their families with a gaping hole in their lives with them gone?

Since I'm on the PC this time, I'll link my screenshots and sources.

78% of COVID-19 patients hospitalized in the US overweight or obese, CDC finds

Body Mass Index and Risk for COVID-19–Related ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/cov...le-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

Also some quick math:

33mil Covid cases (unsure if repeats. We'll assume no) out of 331mil population in the US. 10% chance to contract it in the first place.

Then:

603000 dead out of 33mil. 1% chance to die because of it. So, total, .1% chance of death from this all together.

Additionally, it appears 78% of the hospitalizations are overweight and obese. So that's, what .03% chance for a healthy person to die from this?

If there's even a .5% chance the vaccine negatively can affect me it's not worth the risk for me to take it to protect .03% of people who deserve the protection, IMO. Again, call me a monster, but these are the numbers.

If .1% is 1/1000 then .03% is 3/10000 correct?

Using this figure (which I know you doubt)

As the official report shows, only 10 deaths out of 30,000 people vaccinated - that is 1 in 3000 - are suspcious.

So, approximately 3.33/10,000? I'm as likely to die from the vaccine as I am from Covid itself. But, unlike Covid, which I may never even get in the first place, if I get the vaccine that's it. Those odds aren't worth it to me or my family.

 

[expos4ever]

Heart disease also kills approximately 600k in the US each year. Do you also advocate to mandate a ban on fast/junk food?

If you eating junk food gave me heart disease, yes I would mandate a ban.

 

[expos4ever]

Using your own words, are those people who are overweight and obese not also overwhelming healthcare systems?

No, they are not overwhelming the health care system. They may be needlessly taxing it, but they are not overloading it. Obese people will dribble into the health care system at a pretty steady, predictable rate. Not so with covid - tens of thousands need care all at once.

 

[expos4ever]

78% of COVID-19 patients hospitalized in the US overweight or obese, CDC finds

Body Mass Index and Risk for COVID-19–Related ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/cov...le-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

How does any of this support your position of vaccine hesitancy?

Also some quick math:

33mil Covid cases (unsure if repeats. We'll assume no) out of 331mil population in the US. 10% chance to contract it in the first place.

No. All this shows is how many people have contracted it so far. A medical expert (Dr. Isaac Bogoch) has stated that people who remain unvaccinated will likely eventually get infected.

 

[expos4ever]

603000 dead out of 33mil. 1% chance to die because of it. So, total, .1% chance of death from this all together.

Some major problems with this:

1 - even 0.1% is 600,000 people dead!

2 - the 600,000 is the death count so far, and with many Americans vaccinated. God knows how many would have died if every American was vaccine hesitant.

3 - Variants: people who refuse to be vaccinated are contributing to the risk that variants will arise that could sidestep the vaccine. Many could die.

 

[Sodafox]

If you eating junk food gave me heart disease, yes I would mandate a ban.

Right, but what's happening now is people eating junk food now want to dictate what I do or don't put into my body, so basically the same thing.

How does any of this support your position of vaccine hesitancy?

By showing me that I, and most others, have very little to fear from Covid itself so a vaccine isn't necessary.

 

[expos4ever]

Right, but what's happening now is people eating junk food now want to dictate what I do or don't put into my body, so basically the same thing.

No it is not the same thing and you are distorting the relevant facts. Yes, people obviously could reduce their risk of dying from covid by laying off the nachos and ungluing themselves from the couch.

How is that relevant? We have people in poor health - do they deserve to die when it is in your power to play a role in preventing that?

In any event, there are a range of other factors that put you at risk that are not "lifestyle" choices - age, prime among them. I, for one, don't think we should cast the elderly adrift.

The bottom line is this: based on everything we know, the risks posed by the vaccine are greatly outweighed by the risk posed by covid. Even for young, healthy people (with rare and obvious exceptions - people who have strong allergic reactions to vaccines). We can get into the details if you like but it will not go well.

 

[expos4ever]

By showing me that I, and most others, have very little to fear from Covid itself so a vaccine isn't necessary.

But this is manifestly untrue. Every indication we have is that lack of vaccination fuels variants. And the variants, at least some of them, are getting nastier. This is a highly contagious virus. Unless, it is somehow eradicated, which I believe the experts say is unlikely, you, as an unvaccinated person, will likely get covid eventually - it is just a matter of time.

You appear concerned about unknown long-term effects of the vaccines. Fair enough.

What about known long-term effects of covid, not to mention unknown long-term effects?

 

[Sodafox]

@expos4ever

The heart of my issue is the idea that the government, or anyone, should have a say what I put into my body. I say, if we're going to mandate this vaccine, let's not stop there. Go all in. Mandate what we eat, drink, smoke, inject or otherwise injest.

 

[hedrick]

@expos4ever

The heart of my issue is the idea that the government, or anyone, should have a say what I put into my body. I say, if we're going to mandate this vaccine, let's not stop there. Go all in. Mandate what we eat, drink, smoke, inject or otherwise injest.

Communicable diseases are different, because dealing with them has to be done by the whole community. That's why things that would otherwise be unaccepted are allowed, e.g. quarantines.

Early Christians got a lot of good will because in epidemics they would stay and nurse the ill, whereas many doctors would flee the city. That was certainly risky. But certain forms of modern Christianity seem to about people being able to do whatever they want. I challenge you to find support for that in the Bible.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Oh, you think a briefing with broad strokes constitutes a systematic study.

I've given you links to two different reports of a very large, prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled, blinded, multi-center clinical study of the safety (and efficacy!) of the Pfizer vaccine. That is the absolute gold standard of clinical studies, and no amount of obfuscation on your part will make the study go away. Moreover, each of the other two vaccines currently in use in the US has similar studies of the highest caliber.

 

[Sodafox]

Communicable diseases are different, because dealing with them has to be done by the whole community. That's why things that would otherwise be unaccepted are allowed, e.g. quarantines.

Early Christians got a lot of good will because in epidemics they would stay and nurse the ill, whereas many doctors would flee the city. That was certainly risky. But certain forms of modern Christianity seem to about people being able to do whatever they want. I challenge you to find support for that in the Bible.

Even so, I don't think it right to force my belief in my neighbor.