Covid Vaccines Required

Occams Barber

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What I said is based on basic ethical philosophy, not unique to any religion. As an atheist, you still maintain the burden of moral justification, unless you subscribe to moral anti-realism - and if so, then you wouldn't have a moral position at all.

For your position, you must overcome the is-ought barrier, effects topicality, and value calculus.

My position does not violate the is-ought barrier, avoids the effects topicality issue with Occam's Ra zor, and I use a value calculus which isn't authoritarian. As such, you would carry the burden of proof to show why the hypothesis is sound, as I represent the null.


Then let me ask you, as a Christian, would you feel morally compromised if you knowingly placed others at risk without a good reason?

OB
 
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Occams Barber

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I don't think that's an atheism thing. As a Christian, the idea that there is no moral obligation to avoid being the spreader of a deadly disease is questionable.

All of us might unknowingly and unwillingly contribute to the spread of disease without being morally culpable. But when we have the opportunity to prevent such spread and refuse the opportunity, that would fall into "sin of omission" territory.


I don't think that Mr Appletree quite understands this.

OB
 
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Fr. Appletree

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Then let me ask you, as a Christian, would you feel morally compromised if you knowing placed others at risk without a good reason?

OB
Yes, which is why I am demanding 'good reason' from the qualia of ethics. Do you have a problem with ethical justification? Do you believe your moral beliefs do not require 'good reason'?

Which carries the burden of proof? The one claiming a moral obligation and an action imperative or the one who carries the status quo?

How do material facts translate into imperatives without 'ought' premises? And if you do have 'ought premises, how do you derive them? And why should I agree with your derivation? What qualia do you have for your means of derivation?

And how do you apply ambiguous causal chains towards moral liability, where action and consequence is far removed and not obvious?

All of these questions are what constitute 'good reason'.

'Good reason' is not a synonym for your personal moral dogmas.
 
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Occams Barber

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Yes, which is why I am demanding 'good reason' from the qualia of ethics. Do you have a problem with ethical justification? Do you believe your moral beliefs do not require 'good reason'?

Which carries the burden of proof? The one claiming a moral obligation and an action imperative or the one who carries the status quo?

How do material facts translate into imperatives without 'ought' premises? And if you do have 'ought premises, how do you derive them? And why should I agree with your derivation? What qualia do you have for your means of derivation?

And how do you apply ambiguous causal chains towards moral liability, where action and consequence is far removed and not obvious?

All of these questions are what constitute 'good reason'.

'Good reason' is not a synonym for your personal moral dogmas.


So you're avoiding the question?

OB
 
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Fr. Appletree

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You seem to be angry. Have I annoyed you?

OB

No. Are you? But are you willing to discuss the topic at hand or not? And if not, then I have no business speaking to you and I will shake the dust from my feet and walk.
 
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Occams Barber

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No. Are you? But are you willing to discuss the topic at hand or not? And if not, then I have no business speaking to you and I will shake the dust from my feet and walk.


Sure.

The topic at hand is Sodafax's concerns about a Covid 19 vaccination.

OB
 
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Fr. Appletree

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All of us might unknowingly and unwillingly contribute to the spread of disease without being morally culpable. But when we have the opportunity to prevent such spread and refuse the opportunity, that would fall into "sin of omission" territory.

A sin of omission would require there to be a moral obligation in the first place, which for the last year and some months has not been demonstrated beyond the assertion of unjustified dogma - without so much a sense that imperatives require justification at all.

In addition to answers to my questions above you would need to show how moral culpability is satisfied by your solution, including whether your solution has solvency. Otherwise it's unreasonable and on it's face absurd.

Furthermore, if you cannot, how is using faux moral reasoning to coerce action moral?
 
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Fr. Appletree

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Sure.

The topic at hand is Sodafax's concerns about a Covid 19 vaccination.

OB

Which I validated with encouragement and support before you took issue with that, in order to push your moral dogmas. I am now shaking the dust off my feet in lieu of your immature obfuscation.
 
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Bobber

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All of us might unknowingly and unwillingly contribute to the spread of disease without being morally culpable. But when we have the opportunity to prevent such spread and refuse the opportunity, that would fall into "sin of omission" territory.

No it doesn't and I truly hope you're not telling that to your congregation being a leader. It's a matter of conscience and if one questions highly and are strongly doubting the word of people in the medical field they have not sinned. I think it's fine for you to give your opinion to your group and maybe even to make an appeal for them to consider taking a vaccine but do not bring it up to a level where they're made to feel they've sinned by hesitating! A better way would be to say go with what you've got in your heart and what you do medically is your decision not mine and that you'll support any decision they make.
 
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Occams Barber

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Which I validated with encouragement and support before you took issue with that, in order to push your moral dogmas. I am now shaking the dust off my feet in lieu of your immature obfuscation.


I can see the dust rising from half the world away. :rolleyes:

OB
 
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Paidiske

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A sin of omission would require there to be a moral obligation in the first place, which for the last year and some months has not been demonstrated beyond the assertion of unjustified dogma - without so much a sense that imperatives require justification at all.

In addition to answers to my questions above you would need to show how moral culpability is satisfied by your solution, including whether your solution has solvency. Otherwise it's unreasonable and on it's face absurd.

The moral obligation is to avoid infecting others, leading to illness and the threat of death. Now I will grant you that there is a sliding scale of culpability, from knowingly and intentionally infecting others, to unknowingly but carelessly infecting others (the person who doesn't get tested but continues to mingle with others while sick, for example), to infecting others without any reason to suspect that one might do so (the asymptomatic carrier, for example). But by vaccinating we have an opportunity to reduce the likelihood that we will infect others.

Now, Covid vaccines are not completely efficacious (they do not prevent all infections, and they do not prevent all illness or death). So there is a question about whether there is as strong a moral imperative for this vaccine on an individual level as there might be for a vaccine which offers total immunity (and the prospect of eradicating a disease, as we did with smallpox).

But I don't think that lets us off the hook entirely, as it can be demonstrated statistically that higher vaccination rates mean lower death rates, and we have the opportunity to put ourselves on either side of that equation.

Furthermore, if you cannot, how is using faux moral reasoning to coerce action moral?

I would see coercion on this point as immoral. But that does not mean we cannot state a moral case for vaccination.

No it doesn't and I truly hope you're not telling that to your congregation being a leader. It's a matter of conscience and if one questions highly and are strongly doubting the word of people in the medical field they have not sinned. I think it's fine for you to give your opinion to your group and maybe even to make an appeal for them to consider taking a vaccine but do not bring it up to a level where they're made to feel they've sinned by hesitating! A better way would be to say go with what you've got in your heart and what you do medically is your decision not mine and that you'll support any decision they make.

My congregation have not sought my opinion on this point, but every single one of them whose view I am aware of is either already vaccinated or keen to be vaccinated. If anyone did seek my advice for themselves personally, I would advise them to seek their doctor's advice on a medical matter. As a general principle, though - and as someone with a degree in immunology - I have no problem with encouraging vaccination.

It's not a sin to doubt medical advice, but it might well be sin to refuse to do one's part to protect life. It's not a matter of "go with what you've got in your heart" - after all, our hearts are notoriously unreliable - what's in our hearts may well need discernment and even challenge.
 
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Sodafox

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There's too many posts to quote them all but here goes:

I'm not getting the vaccine. Period. My husband is strongly against it so, even if I were on the fence about it myself, I would have to lie to him or disobey his wishes as well, and I'm not going to do that.

Additionally, while I'm fully vaccinated with the basics, I will not get the yearly flu shot. I've only ever gotten really sick once and that was the one time I got the flu shot. I get told it's "just a coincidence" but I really doubt that.

I am curious the stance from the priest knowing the second factor. Is one morally obligated to put themselves in danger to protect others? Obviously I survived the flu shot but what if the Covid one does me in?

Additionally, and you can think I'm whatever heartless monster you want for me even thinking this but: I understand the death rate for covid, when the victim is younger they 65%, the majority of deaths are those who are overweight or obese. Do those folks not have a moral obligation to keep their bodies healthy? If they did, the death rate for covid (with is already staggeringly low at 1%) would be even less. I'm also curious, but I'm not sure this stat is monitored anywhere, how many of those 65+ were overweight or obese (or long time smokers). I've had around half a dozen covid cases among my elderly relatives which all ended in survival with no ill effects. While some may say it's just my personal experience and I'm lucky I prefer to trust what I see and know in my own experience than listening to the media and healthcare professionals who are on government payroll.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I think I'll hold off on schooling for now.
 
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Paidiske

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I am curious the stance from the priest knowing the second factor. Is one morally obligated to put themselves in danger to protect others? Obviously I survived the flu shot but what if the Covid one does me in?

I'm not sure which priest you meant, but I'll answer anyway.
We need to analyse both the risk and the benefit. The higher the risk to you, and the lower the benefit, the less moral obligation. In this case, the risk is very low, the benefit is very high (to you and others), so the moral argument is strong in favour of vaccination.

It's not an absolute - we are talking about probabilities, after all - but there's a strong reason to consider vaccination in this case to be the ethical choice.

Do those folks not have a moral obligation to keep their bodies healthy?

One might make that argument, but since their health situation is far less likely to impact on anyone else, than someone's vaccination situation, it seems fairly unrelated.

I'm sorry to see you putting your studies on hold over this. I hope you're able to complete them successfully.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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A sin of omission would require there to be a moral obligation in the first place, which for the last year and some months has not been demonstrated beyond the assertion of unjustified dogma - without so much a sense that imperatives require justification at all

Truth!
 
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Fr. Appletree

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The moral obligation is to avoid infecting others, leading to illness and the threat of death. Now I will grant you that there is a sliding scale of culpability, from knowingly and intentionally infecting others, to unknowingly but carelessly infecting others (the person who doesn't get tested but continues to mingle with others while sick, for example), to infecting others without any reason to suspect that one might do so (the asymptomatic carrier, for example). But by vaccinating we have an opportunity to reduce the likelihood that we will infect others.
I did take some classes in epidemiology as an undergraduate. It is antiscience to continue to claim that asymptomatic transmission is a reasonable risk. It is not often the case that it is a reasonable risk, but even more so as it has been well validated that asymptomatic transmission has never been and could not be a driver of this pandemic.

But I don't think that lets us off the hook entirely, as it can be demonstrated statistically that higher vaccination rates mean lower death rates, and we have the opportunity to put ourselves on either side of that equation.
This is an example of a particular-universal barrier violation. If all other vaccines did lower death rates, then it still wouldn't be the case that this one does. And there have been plenty historically that increased death rates directly and perhaps some that have done so indirectly - even when the government isn't doing unethical human experimentation... like with syphilis.

And that is why your moral opinions sound like they are read from government pamphlets, it is a symptom of propaganda and bad thinking to generate a universal to try to prove a particular.

But as for statistics, I earned some 250 credits before obtaining my Bachelor's, and about half were in data analysis, so let's bring up some data issues.

Let's all quickly remember the lockdowns, which according to the RAND Corporation's working paper killed more people (and continue to kill people) than they saved. So, is it the case that those who complied with these lockdown orders have moral culpability for the deaths of these people? After all, these deaths were preventable - if only people disobeyed the health authorities. Or should we not have a multi-faceted impact calculus, but just listen blindly to the government as being the sole arbiter of values?

These same authorities, mind you, who broke federal law by unilaterally altering the data methods for COVID pandemic statistics? Under the legal information quality standards, the death rate is around 24 times less (according to some studies, it's hard to tell exactly due to the seeming incapacity of the government health bureaucrats to maintain consistent and comparable data sets over time.) And why, even after more than a year, has there been a failure to submit the proper oversight paperwork? I guess verifying information quality isn't necessary when dealing with a pandemic?
And who deleted repositories of early COVID data because China said so? Right... these are very trustworthy authorities you implicitly appeal to.

Perhaps there is a reason why that MIT's study on mask and lockdown skepticism stated that the skeptics showed greater scientific rigour and greater data literacy than those who followed the admittedly deadly and overtly authoritarian government health policies - who disproportionately subscribe to naïve realism.

Why should I also subscribe to naïverealism
I would see coercion on this point as immoral. But that does not mean we cannot state a moral case for vaccination.
Do you actually criticize this coercion when it occurs though? Because that coercion is everywhere. I drive by government propaganda billboards all the time that exhibit this behavior you call immoral, and I've seen the animations that were given to elementary school children in this area - "hugging grandma could kill her, don't be a murderer children" alongside, of course, "digital citizenship - watch what you say."

Yes, but a moral case would actually have to be stated. Which despite all the 'we're in this together' nonsense, hasn't been given by any in authority despite their propaganda.

Why should I accept a value calculus of 'risk mitigation to save lives with biological life as the sole accepted value?' Is it wrong to value huma rights and correct deference to Holy Things over mere biological life? Is it worthwhile to put everyone in medical induced comas in sealed glass boxes to prevent the risk of death - or does human life mean more than that and are there things that make life matter? And so why should I listen to a faux moral obligation which is so blatantly antihuman as to require the severing of what is most critical of all in life. Why should I renounce compassion for my fellows to accept a faux compassion of government health policy which explicitly harmed those who require the most compassion.

It's not a sin to doubt medical advice, but it might well be sin to refuse to do one's part to protect life. It's not a matter of "go with what you've got in your heart" - after all, our hearts are notoriously unreliable - what's in our hearts may well need discernment and even challenge.
But you continually 'go with what you've got in your heart' by offering your moral opinions rather than presenting an ethical case, which I've already indicated what would constitute such a case.

And what I've asked for is what was asked of us in our basic catachesis class for entering the Church - "every imperative requires a justification, if you cannot provide a justification it's probably a sin."
 
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