Can you prove your ancestors existed ?

Does archeology prove each of your ancestors existed ?

  • Yes -- ancient inscriptions on ancient bones containing sample-able amounts of DNA prove it

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • No -- my family has tales but no relics w/ ancient inscriptions, so my ancestors never existed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Erik Nelson

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I understand many professional Biblical scholars take a "minimalist" view that essentially denies the existence of Biblical figures, until and unless archeology proves that they did.

So, by the same logic, how many people can prove that their own ancient ancestors existed, hundreds to thousands of years ago ?

How many people have ancient inscriptions on ancient relics proving that any of their own ancient, direct, ancestors existed ? If not, then maybe they never existed ?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, as Strathos pointed out, obviously my ancestors did exist otherwise I wouldn't exist. I may not know who those ancestors are, but obviously I had to have descended from people who came before me; that's kind of how biological existence works.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I understand many professional Biblical scholars take a "minimalist" view that essentially denies the existence of Biblical figures, until and unless archeology proves that they did.

So, by the same logic, how many people can prove that their own ancient ancestors existed, hundreds to thousands of years ago ?

How many people have ancient inscriptions on ancient relics proving that any of their own ancient, direct, ancestors existed ? If not, then maybe they never existed ?

That's not a particularly good comparison because there's a big difference between the question of "Did so-and-so exist" and "did your ancestors exist". Obviously I have ancestors, just as you do, just as we all do--for the simple fact that we exist. We are here talking about this. But whether or not my ancestors existed is a much different question than, for example, "Did King Arthur exist?".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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This is a different question. If someone is reported in an historical narrative and it broadly fits the rest of our narrative, I see no reason to doubt it.
If someone is reported in a narrative, but it runs contrary to the rest of our reported narratives of the period, or doesn't seem to plausibly fit, then I would doubt it and ask for more definitive data before accepting it as historical. Perhaps I would continue to doubt some aspects here, if historicity is based on poor sources.

To take the example of King Arthur mentioned above.
We have no contemporaneous source mentioning him, although we do have historians of the period like Gildas. Our sources are much later epics and romances. This is a black mark against him, especially if he was King. So doubt is reasonable here.
However, the historical record does show a slowing of the advance of the Anglo-Saxon tribes, so some Welsh recovery is supported, and this was historically ascribed to Arthur, so our doubt should be softened slightly - especially as he may not have been king and Arthur might have been a nickname rather than the name he would have held historically or be an amalgam of multiple figures.

This is in opposition to someone like Ambrosius Aurelianus, who is established both by reliable historians and by archaeological probability or evidence; or Launcelot who is clearly a complete invention.

In the biblical narrative, we have Ambrosiuses like Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzer, Pontius Pilate, Gamaliel, etc. I would add figures like Paul, Peter or Josiah here, that are reasonable to assume to have existed based on our historical narratives, even if no extra-biblical sources are known.

Then we have Arthurs such as some of the prophets like Elijah or Aaron. It is possible they existed or something vaguely like them, but we really can't definitively say by our surviving sources. Some doubt is reasonable, but you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is obviously gradations here from more reasonable to less reasonable.

Finally Launcelots: this is more difficult, to establish someone definitely didn't exist. This used to be the position on someone like Belshazzar, until we discovered he did exist by archaeological means. For the Bible said he ruled Babylon, but no such figure was possible in our records - turns out he was a son of another monarch Nabonidus, who had indeed put him in charge of Babylon. So one must be careful. A good example of people that run contrary to our historical narrative currently are Darius the Mede; or seem implausible like Noah; for which a good amount of doubt is probably salutary if you approach the Bible as an historical text. This is different from using it for its intended purpose as a book of worship though, and context is important.
 
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Episaw

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I know that my ancestors existed because I met one of them at the zoo the other day. I didn't know this but he told me that we both came from ancestors that emanated from the Florida Swamps.

I asked him how come he ended up a monkey and I ended up a human?

"Well you see," he said "it is like this. I had a lot of arthritis in my knees so I could not stand up properly so the powers that be said you had better be a monkey as being a human will be too difficult for you if you have arthritis in the knees as they have to stand upright."

"That sounded logic to me, so I started to use my hands and legs to get around on and you know what. The arthritis is not a problem so thanks to those evolutionists who came up with the idea of walking on hands and legs."

"Don't you think that is a disadvantage, not being able to stand upright and light fires to cook food on. I mean how yuk is it to eat raw animal or insect?"

"No problem as you get used to it. The best part is no washing as we go around naked. How good is that?"
 
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Erik Nelson

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That's not a particularly good comparison because there's a big difference between the question of "Did so-and-so exist" and "did your ancestors exist". Obviously I have ancestors, just as you do, just as we all do--for the simple fact that we exist. We are here talking about this. But whether or not my ancestors existed is a much different question than, for example, "Did King Arthur exist?".

-CryptoLutheran
True... yet the "aggressive denial" of the existences of Biblical figures, based on lack of sufficiently hard evidence, would then -- if applied even-handedly to every person -- deny the existence of everybody's ancestors...

No specific evidence of existence != evidence of non-existence

And, the surviving stories of their lives, being the only direct evidence, would weigh in the favor of their existence... how many times, in all of human history, has a completely fictitious non-person ever been "invented into memory" ?
 
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Erik Nelson

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This is a different question. If someone is reported in an historical narrative and it broadly fits the rest of our narrative, I see no reason to doubt it.
If someone is reported in a narrative, but it runs contrary to the rest of our reported narratives of the period, or doesn't seem to plausibly fit, then I would doubt it and ask for more definitive data before accepting it as historical. Perhaps I would continue to doubt some aspects here, if historicity is based on poor sources.

To take the example of King Arthur mentioned above.
We have no contemporaneous source mentioning him, although we do have historians of the period like Gildas. Our sources are much later epics and romances. This is a black mark against him, especially if he was King. So doubt is reasonable here.
However, the historical record does show a slowing of the advance of the Anglo-Saxon tribes, so some Welsh recovery is supported, and this was historically ascribed to Arthur, so our doubt should be softened slightly - especially as he may not have been king and Arthur might have been a nickname rather than the name he would have held historically or be an amalgam of multiple figures.

This is in opposition to someone like Ambrosius Aurelianus, who is established both by reliable historians and by archaeological probability or evidence; or Launcelot who is clearly a complete invention.

In the biblical narrative, we have Ambrosiuses like Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzer, Pontius Pilate, Gamaliel, etc. I would add figures like Paul, Peter or Josiah here, that are reasonable to assume to have existed based on our historical narratives, even if no extra-biblical sources are known.

Then we have Arthurs such as some of the prophets like Elijah or Aaron. It is possible they existed or something vaguely like them, but we really can't definitively say by our surviving sources. Some doubt is reasonable, but you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is obviously gradations here from more reasonable to less reasonable.

Finally Launcelots: this is more difficult, to establish someone definitely didn't exist. This used to be the position on someone like Belshazzar, until we discovered he did exist by archaeological means. For the Bible said he ruled Babylon, but no such figure was possible in our records - turns out he was a son of another monarch Nabonidus, who had indeed put him in charge of Babylon. So one must be careful. A good example of people that run contrary to our historical narrative currently are Darius the Mede; or seem implausible like Noah; for which a good amount of doubt is probably salutary if you approach the Bible as an historical text. This is different from using it for its intended purpose as a book of worship though, and context is important.

Osarseph and Exodus

An Egyptian source (namely, Chaeremon) remembers the Exodus group to have had two leaders, corroborating the Biblical tradition

Why would you doubt the existence of Elijah ? What is so remarkable about yet another Israelite preaching Prophet ? There was one every generation... excising Elijah from Israelite history leaves a generational gap with other (qualitatively) similar figures on either "side", both before & after...

raising the "bar" to finding 3000 year old decaying "needles" in the "haystack" of the Near Eastern
archeological record... in order to accept someone's existence... as if Scripture was to be doubted unless authenticated elsewhere... is a very tall order and high burden of evidence to apply

I mean, what actually hinges on the names of the Patriarchs ? If "Abraham" was actually confirmed by archeology to have really been named "B-raham" or "Z-braham" or something, what Theological doctrine really changes?

The name "Abraham" is attested from Ebla in about the right time period, along with itinerant preaching Prophets:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/artic.../Is-There-Evidence-of-Abrahams-Revolution.htm

I feel that an overly high burden of evidence is just an excuse to dis-believe whilst still appearing to have an open mind. I myself would be more inclined to dis-believe the alleged miracles associated with the various Biblical figures, before I would bother dis-believing in the existence of the figures themselves.
 
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Osarseph and Exodus

An Egyptian source (namely, Chaeremon) remembers the Exodus group to have had two leaders, corroborating the Biblical tradition
Well, Chaeremon is not an Egyptian source. He was a Greek and in fact quite dismissive of Egyptians, although he lived in Alexandria.
The Egyptian source is Manetho. However, both of these are only known in fragmentary form, mostly from Josephus.
As such, we have one source here referencing others.

This is part of the argument why Moses and Aaron fall in the Arthurian group. Much historical narrative from Archaeology disputes it, but literary tradition and facts such as the Shasu of YHW in Midian gives some support. It is thus doubtful narrative that one can argue over, that has serious enough problems that it cannot be securely affirmed, but enough evidence that it cannot be fully dismissed either. It depends what evidence you give more weight to.

Why would you doubt the existence of Elijah ? What is so remarkable about yet another Israelite preaching Prophet ? There was one every generation... excising Elijah from Israelite history leaves a generational gap with other (qualitatively) similar figures on either "side", both before & after...
There aren't similar figures to Elijah. Being taken into heaven by a fiery chariot, single handedly standing up to the monarch, etc. Elijah is a major prophet, hence present at the transfiguration.
The more fantastic a narrative with more extreme claims, the higher the bar of credibility. If I claim a warlord united a small tribe in the steppe in 300s AD vs claiming a warlord united all the steppe tribes, the latter requires far more proof to be believable than the much more restrained claim. One vague reference somewhere would be more than sufficient for the former, but not for the latter.

That there were prophets is certainly believable. That one was named Elijah as well. To claim he stood up to a dynasty at the height of its powers, overthrew Baal prophets and so forth, with no corroborating narrative from the period of someone who clearly had to have made an impact, should give one pause. Again, an Arthurian figure, as not impossible, but the sheer claims made around him makes it more difficult to fully assume his historicity. Elijah is more to the reasonable side of the spectrum though, I agree. It was just an example though, and there will inevitably be disagreement on borderline cases between Arthurians and Ambrosiuses.
raising the "bar" to finding 3000 year old decaying "needles" in the "haystack" of the Near Eastern
archeological record... in order to accept someone's existence... as if Scripture was to be doubted unless authenticated elsewhere... is a very tall order and high burden of evidence to apply
I agree. Often we have very few sources, so one source is the only show in town. Good examples are the Biblical narrative in much of Kings, or Herodotus, Tacitus, Theucydides, etc. Sometimes one source is sufficient, if it fits the general milieu. It is unreasonable to expect corroboration for every little thing and that would make history in general untenable.

I mean, what actually hinges on the names of the Patriarchs ? If "Abraham" was actually confirmed by archeology to have really been named "B-raham" or "Z-braham" or something, what Theological doctrine really changes?

The name "Abraham" is attested from Ebla in about the right time period, along with itinerant preaching Prophets:

Is There Evidence of Abraham's Revolution?
Well, that is another thing in entirety. I am unaware of an Eblaite reference to Abraham directly, nor found it in your reference. Could you supply it?

I actually do not believe Ebla to be closely related to Judaism, in spite of a lot of speculation in this regard. They are both Semitic, but there is no evidence of any direct connection. Association may just be familial, like Leviathan and Tiamat style, or Noah and Utnapishtim, so things more than this are speculative and does require quite a lot of corroboration in my opinion. It would be the equivalent of trying to affirm English history in the 7th century by what was happening in Scandinavia - it may give you some useful information, but should be taken with a little pinch of salt.
I feel that an overly high burden of evidence is just an excuse to dis-believe whilst still appearing to have an open mind. I myself would be more inclined to dis-believe the alleged miracles associated with the various Biblical figures, before I would bother dis-believing in the existence of the figures themselves.
Agreed. There is a necessity to critically appraise historical figures, but when it comes to the Bible there is a knee-jerk tendency to expect too high amount of corroboration. This would never be expected of Egyptian or Greco-Roman historical sources, which often has similar levels of fantastical events. As I said, it is a spectrum from fully proven Historical figures, down through figures of decreasing plausibility, to ones that are highly doubtful. I would extend some form of historical acceptance provisionally to all of my Arthur-types, but with significant caveats and on a case by case basis.

History is a series of lies agreed upon though, as Napoleon was said to have said.
 
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