Can a skeptic on the fence have a personal encounter with God?

[Laodicean60]

Good.
Realize that a lot of people are "healed" of severe problems even if they did not have any problem other than indigestion. Money rules the profession !

Are you a Christian? it sounds like you are calling me a liar.

 

[Laodicean60]

What makes you think that at all? It is medical profession that is controlled by money ... hopefully NOT YOU!

Look dude I won't argue with you but you're coming at me with your own paradigm, ego, and worldview about my life experience. I think all of us Christians have to ask are you loving me as much as you love yourself? I know it's hard especially when I read comment like yours Peace Out

 

[Berserk]

@Berserk Do you think if I try the 10-day experiment again, this time it might work?

I never expected it to work immediately; I was just hoping it would give you the ideal mindset for being ambushed by God.
PhiloVoid's posts quote famed Christian apologist C. S. Lewis, a former atheist. He describes his conversion process in his autobiography, "Surprised by Joy." 2 key moments: He was riding a bus when he became obsessed with the thought that he was like a lobster locked in his shell. A voice challenged him to unlock the shell and emerge from it. He pondered this thought and then forgot it--until the next day when he was being driven to the Whipsnade Zoo. He notes, "When I began that journey, I didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, but when I arrived at the zoo, I did. Yet I wasn't exactly thinking about these issues during the ride!"

Please keep monitoring new experiences on my Life Journey thread, not because the paranormal should convince you, but because my experience shows that skeptics feel nudged by God by reading about these experiences.

 

[SkepticOnTheFence]

Do you see that your attempt at a deduction is neither Valid nor Sound?

Strictly speaking, I didn't present a formal deductive argument or syllogism, so assessment of validity and soundness of deductive reasoning is not entirely pertinent here (although I understand that you got that impression from my using the word "follow"). Rather, I was (and am) trying to make an abductive case for the hypothesis that the spiritual realm (if it exists) obeys laws, in the sense that this hypothesis would make better sense of the data than its negation.

You'll need a lot more to substantiate your personal "seemings" than what mere hasty generalizations can afford you.

Sure, point conceded. By no means I claim to have presented all the data that could possibly be presented in my last post.

It doesn't really "follow" by some sort of causal fiat that what can be termed as an amorphous conceptual spirituality has any semblance, let alone analogous patterns or meanings, to the structures of the physical world and its natural systems.

Notice you have some burden of proof here: you are making the positive claim that the spiritual realm is amorphous and conceptual, in apparent striking contrast to the physical world. Can you please clarify what exactly you mean by these terms (conceptual and amorphous) and explain why you think this is the case? Moreover, why do you think this would prevent the spiritual realm from obeying laws?

Also, the act of simply reading the biblical texts in the Gospels pertaining to either demons that cannot be cast out without prayer [and fasting] or to the report that Jesus fasted in the desert for 40 days doesn't demonstrate in any way that there is some sort of "spiritual law" at work.

I'm presenting them as evidence consistent with my view (that the spiritual realm obeys laws). Remember, I'm making an abductive argument. Abductive arguments are not meant to be "proofs" (in the mathematical sense). Abductive arguments are just inferences to the best explanation. So, yes, I agree with you that what I said doesn't "demonstrate" anything (in a deductive sense), but that's not problematic: that was never the goal in the first place.

No, it'll take much more to exegete those passages and draw out any bona fide implications about spiritual rules or laws, if they even exist, than what your simple references to these passages can provide.

Regarding Jesus' 40-day fast and the power of the Spirit, I found this exegetical discussion: Is there a causal relationship between Jesus' 40-day fast and his return in "the power of the Spirit" in Luke 4:14?. Judging from the answers, it all makes sense on the view that the supernatural is ruled by spiritual laws.

About prayer, fasting and casting out demons, I liked what this article says: Why did Jesus say that the demon could only come out by prayer and fasting (Mark 9:29)? | GotQuestions.org. They conclude: "As Jesus explains to the crowd, the key was the faith of those involved (e.g., Mark 9:19, 23). So it is evident that prayer rooted in faith in Jesus Christ is effective (see James’ assertion that the prayer of a righteous [believing] person is effective, James 5:16b). Jesus was challenging the crowd, the boy’s father, and the disciples on the importance of believing in Him as the One who could accomplish what would otherwise be impossible."

This pretty much sounds like spiritual principles/rules/laws to me.

As for attributions of a "formula," I'm not citing that such a thing actually exists. No, I'm citing the sort of ideas and nomenclature that Faith Movements teachers have put forth by their own words and from their own notions about the nature of the Christian faith. I don't believe in formulas, spiritual laws or spiritual guarantees, at least not of the sort that can be easily recognized, tested and measured.

So are you then epistemically open to the possible existence of "complex", "not easily testable" spiritual principles or laws?

So, I hate to say this, but it is actually your attempt at "logic" that is questionable here.

Hopefully it's already clear by now that I was (and am) mainly trying to use abductive (not deductive) reasoning. But sure, all abductive arguments are questionable.

No, it's incumbent upon you to firmly demonstrate and cite why anyone should think there is ...

Let's consider all the possibilities:

1. The spiritual realm doesn't exist
2. The spiritual realm does exist, and operates according to rules
3. The spiritual realm does exist, but doesn't operate according to rules

Since I'm quite motivated to seek (and hopefully find) God and become a Christian, I'm happy to concede for the sake of argument that 1. is false. This leaves us with a dichotomy between possibilities 2 and 3. I strongly lean towards 2. So, yes, I have a burden of proof as to showing why I think 2 is more likely the case. On the other hand, you made the following claim: "Why is expecting miracles problematic? It is because faith in Christ is, and never was, a "miracle formula" to put into practice." This sounds to me as if you were making a positive defense of 3, in which case you have a burden of proof also. Of course, I might be mistaken and instead you may actually be agnostic with respect to both 2 and 3 (say, you are 50/50). And if that's the case, that's fine. But then you will need to explain to me why you think the reasons I provide are not persuasive to you.

But if you want an example, I suppose we could start with looking again at Paul's askance of the Lord to heal his ailing eye-sight (... to which the Lord apparently said "No" three times).

This instance has an easy explanation consistent with my view, which is explicitly stated by the passage itself. Jesus afflicted Paul with a "thorn in the flesh" for the following reason:

7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

All the bolded and underlined sentences shout "spiritual laws" to me.

Maybe it's time to read more intensive books then?

To recap, you said this in response to my asking for clarification regarding the purported contradiction between two propositions:

1. "faith is meant to be a living, day by day dependence upon the Lord, one in which we are asked to be patient even in tribulation, even to the end of our lives (however cliche and disappointing and extreme that may sound to some...)"
2. The supernatural can be expected to manifest under certain conditions.

I don't see any logical contradiction between these two ideas. As an example, consider the case of Jesus. Jesus perfectly illustrates how both propositions are compatible: Jesus lived day by day depending on God, being patient even in tribulation, even to the end of his life. Simultaneously, Jesus experienced the supernatural from time to time, presumably under certain conditions. You can find more illustrative Biblical examples in the Acts of the Apostles (e.g. see the lives of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter).

However, you seem to disagree and strongly believe that the two propositions are somehow in contradiction. You also suggested that I should be reading more intensive books. So my request for you is the following:

• Please cite 2 or 3 "intensive" books defending the purported contradiction.
• Please briefly summarize the main argument of each book (for the sake of not making this discussion eternally long).

You and I must be reading and hearing a vastly different set of testimonies then.

This is probably true, which makes me profoundly curious about the set of testimonies that you have been reading and hearing. To get the ball rolling, I can share some examples, so you can get an idea of the sort of "testimonial data" I've been exposing myself to (by the way, this "testimonial data" contributes to my abductive case for the spiritual realm having laws or patterns to it):

Books:

• Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts: Amazon.com
• Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World: Amazon.com
• The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural: Amazon.com
• In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History: Amazon.com
• The Catholic Guide to Miracles: Separating the Authentic from the Counterfeit: Amazon.com
• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today: Amazon.com
• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Voice of God: How God Speaks Today through Prophecies, Dreams, and Visions: Amazon.com
• A Diary of Signs & Wonders: A Classic: Amazon.com
• Demonic Foes: My Twenty-Five Years as a Psychiatrist Investigating Possessions, Diabolic Attacks, and the Paranormal: Amazon.com
• The Exorcism Files: True Stories of Demonic Possession: Amazon.com
• Hauntings, Possessions, and Exorcisms: Amazon.com
• The Shantung Revival (The Greatest Revival in Baptist Church History): Amazon.com
• The Gifts and Ministries of the Holy Spirit: Amazon.com

Testimonies (videos):

• Stephen C Ministries: https://www.youtube.com/@StephenCMinistries/videos
• Delafé Testimonies: https://www.youtube.com/@delafetestimonies/videos
• Precious Testimonies: https://www.youtube.com/@PeopleFindingPeaceWithGod/videos
• Deliverance Down Under: https://www.youtube.com/@deliverancedownunder/videos

Now, in terms of exegesis, I asked ChatGPT for example passages supporting the hypothesis that the supernatural obeys spiritual principles, and surprisingly it came out with very good examples. Check it out:

Do you know any Biblical passages that would provide evidence for the claim that the spiritual realm obeys spiritual laws?​

​

Certainly! The concept that the spiritual realm follows certain laws or principles is implicit in various Biblical passages. While the phrase "spiritual laws" might not be explicitly stated, there are indications of order, principles, and guidelines that govern the spiritual realm.​

​

Here are a few passages that might allude to the idea:​

1. Galatians 6:7-8 (NIV): "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." This can be interpreted as a spiritual law of reaping what one sows, both in a physical and spiritual sense.
2. Matthew 7:7-8 (NIV): "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." This suggests a principle of seeking and receiving in the spiritual realm.
3. James 4:7 (NIV): "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." This implies a law of resistance against negative spiritual forces resulting in their retreat.
4. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (NIV): "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." This passage implies a spiritual law governing the sanctity and consequences related to defiling the spiritual temple.

These passages and others point to a sense of order, consequence, and principle in the spiritual realm, indicating that certain behaviors or attitudes result in specific outcomes. While the term "spiritual laws" might not be explicitly used, these verses illustrate principles that suggest the presence of consistent spiritual order or rules.​

​

Any other notable examples?​

​

Absolutely! Here are a few more passages that hint at the existence of spiritual laws or principles:​

1. Luke 6:38 (NIV): "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." This speaks to the principle of reciprocity in the spiritual realm.
2. Ephesians 6:12 (NIV): "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." This suggests a hierarchy and order among spiritual entities.
3. Romans 12:2 (NIV): "Do not conform to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." This indicates a principle of transformation through the renewal of the mind, suggesting a spiritual law guiding personal change.
4. 1 John 1:9 (NIV): "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." This implies a spiritual law related to confession, forgiveness, and purification.

These passages, among others, imply the presence of rules or principles that govern behavior, consequences, and interaction within the spiritual realm. They indicate a consistent framework within which spiritual forces operate, offering guidance on how individuals might navigate or understand this realm.​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Strictly speaking, I didn't present a formal deductive argument or syllogism, so assessment of validity and soundness of deductive reasoning is not entirely pertinent here (although I understand that you got that impression from my using the word "follow"). Rather, I was (and am) trying to make an abductive case for the hypothesis that the spiritual realm (if it exists) obeys laws, in the sense that this hypothesis would make better sense of the data than its negation.

Sure, point conceded. By no means I claim to have presented all the data that could possibly be presented in my last post.

Notice you have some burden of proof here: you are making the positive claim that the spiritual realm is amorphous and conceptual, in apparent striking contrast to the physical world. Can you please clarify what exactly you mean by these terms (conceptual and amorphous) and explain why you think this is the case? Moreover, why do you think this would prevent the spiritual realm from obeying laws?

I'm presenting them as evidence consistent with my view (that the spiritual realm obeys laws). Remember, I'm making an abductive argument. Abductive arguments are not meant to be "proofs" (in the mathematical sense). Abductive arguments are just inferences to the best explanation. So, yes, I agree with you that what I said doesn't "demonstrate" anything (in a deductive sense), but that's not problematic: that was never the goal in the first place.

Regarding Jesus' 40-day fast and the power of the Spirit, I found this exegetical discussion: Is there a causal relationship between Jesus' 40-day fast and his return in "the power of the Spirit" in Luke 4:14?. Judging from the answers, it all makes sense on the view that the supernatural is ruled by spiritual laws.

About prayer, fasting and casting out demons, I liked what this article says: Why did Jesus say that the demon could only come out by prayer and fasting (Mark 9:29)? | GotQuestions.org. They conclude: "As Jesus explains to the crowd, the key was the faith of those involved (e.g., Mark 9:19, 23). So it is evident that prayer rooted in faith in Jesus Christ is effective (see James’ assertion that the prayer of a righteous [believing] person is effective, James 5:16b). Jesus was challenging the crowd, the boy’s father, and the disciples on the importance of believing in Him as the One who could accomplish what would otherwise be impossible."

This pretty much sounds like spiritual principles/rules/laws to me.


So are you then epistemically open to the possible existence of "complex", "not easily testable" spiritual principles or laws?


Hopefully it's already clear by now that I was (and am) mainly trying to use abductive (not deductive) reasoning. But sure, all abductive arguments are questionable.


Let's consider all the possibilities:

1. The spiritual realm doesn't exist
2. The spiritual realm does exist, and operates according to rules
3. The spiritual realm does exist, but doesn't operate according to rules

Since I'm quite motivated to seek (and hopefully find) God and become a Christian, I'm happy to concede for the sake of argument that 1. is false. This leaves us with a dichotomy between possibilities 2 and 3. I strongly lean towards 2. So, yes, I have a burden of proof as to showing why I think 2 is more likely the case. On the other hand, you made the following claim: "Why is expecting miracles problematic? It is because faith in Christ is, and never was, a "miracle formula" to put into practice." This sounds to me as if you were making a positive defense of 3, in which case you have a burden of proof also. Of course, I might be mistaken and instead you may actually be agnostic with respect to both 2 and 3 (say, you are 50/50). And if that's the case, that's fine. But then you will need to explain to me why you think the reasons I provide are not persuasive to you.

This instance has an easy explanation consistent with my view, which is explicitly stated by the passage itself. Jesus afflicted Paul with a "thorn in the flesh" for the following reason:

7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

All the bolded and underlined sentences shout "spiritual laws" to me.


To recap, you said this in response to my asking for clarification regarding the purported contradiction between two propositions:

1. "faith is meant to be a living, day by day dependence upon the Lord, one in which we are asked to be patient even in tribulation, even to the end of our lives (however cliche and disappointing and extreme that may sound to some...)"
2. The supernatural can be expected to manifest under certain conditions.

I don't see any logical contradiction between these two ideas. As an example, consider the case of Jesus. Jesus perfectly illustrates how both propositions are compatible: Jesus lived day by day depending on God, being patient even in tribulation, even to the end of his life. Simultaneously, Jesus experienced the supernatural from time to time, presumably under certain conditions. You can find more illustrative Biblical examples in the Acts of the Apostles (e.g. see the lives of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter).

However, you seem to disagree and strongly believe that the two propositions are somehow in contradiction. You also suggested that I should be reading more intensive books. So my request for you is the following:

• Please cite 2 or 3 "intensive" books defending the purported contradiction.
• Please briefly summarize the main argument of each book (for the sake of not making this discussion eternally long).

This is probably true, which makes me profoundly curious about the set of testimonies that you have been reading and hearing. To get the ball rolling, I can share some examples, so you can get an idea of the sort of "testimonial data" I've been exposing myself to (by the way, this "testimonial data" contributes to my abductive case for the spiritual realm having laws or patterns to it):

Books:

• Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts: Amazon.com
• Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World: Amazon.com
• The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural: Amazon.com
• In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History: Amazon.com
• The Catholic Guide to Miracles: Separating the Authentic from the Counterfeit: Amazon.com
• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today: Amazon.com
• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Voice of God: How God Speaks Today through Prophecies, Dreams, and Visions: Amazon.com
• A Diary of Signs & Wonders: A Classic: Amazon.com
• Demonic Foes: My Twenty-Five Years as a Psychiatrist Investigating Possessions, Diabolic Attacks, and the Paranormal: Amazon.com
• The Exorcism Files: True Stories of Demonic Possession: Amazon.com
• Hauntings, Possessions, and Exorcisms: Amazon.com
• The Shantung Revival (The Greatest Revival in Baptist Church History): Amazon.com
• The Gifts and Ministries of the Holy Spirit: Amazon.com

Testimonies (videos):

• Stephen C Ministries: https://www.youtube.com/@StephenCMinistries/videos
• Delafé Testimonies: https://www.youtube.com/@delafetestimonies/videos
• Precious Testimonies: https://www.youtube.com/@PeopleFindingPeaceWithGod/videos
• Deliverance Down Under: https://www.youtube.com/@deliverancedownunder/videos

Now, in terms of exegesis, I asked ChatGPT for example passages supporting the hypothesis that the supernatural obeys spiritual principles, and surprisingly it came out with very good examples. Check it out:

Do you know any Biblical passages that would provide evidence for the claim that the spiritual realm obeys spiritual laws?​

​

Certainly! The concept that the spiritual realm follows certain laws or principles is implicit in various Biblical passages. While the phrase "spiritual laws" might not be explicitly stated, there are indications of order, principles, and guidelines that govern the spiritual realm.​

​

Here are a few passages that might allude to the idea:​

1. Galatians 6:7-8 (NIV): "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." This can be interpreted as a spiritual law of reaping what one sows, both in a physical and spiritual sense.
2. Matthew 7:7-8 (NIV): "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." This suggests a principle of seeking and receiving in the spiritual realm.
3. James 4:7 (NIV): "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." This implies a law of resistance against negative spiritual forces resulting in their retreat.
4. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (NIV): "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." This passage implies a spiritual law governing the sanctity and consequences related to defiling the spiritual temple.

These passages and others point to a sense of order, consequence, and principle in the spiritual realm, indicating that certain behaviors or attitudes result in specific outcomes. While the term "spiritual laws" might not be explicitly used, these verses illustrate principles that suggest the presence of consistent spiritual order or rules.​

​

Any other notable examples?​

​

Absolutely! Here are a few more passages that hint at the existence of spiritual laws or principles:​

1. Luke 6:38 (NIV): "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." This speaks to the principle of reciprocity in the spiritual realm.
2. Ephesians 6:12 (NIV): "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." This suggests a hierarchy and order among spiritual entities.
3. Romans 12:2 (NIV): "Do not conform to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." This indicates a principle of transformation through the renewal of the mind, suggesting a spiritual law guiding personal change.
4. 1 John 1:9 (NIV): "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." This implies a spiritual law related to confession, forgiveness, and purification.

These passages, among others, imply the presence of rules or principles that govern behavior, consequences, and interaction within the spiritual realm. They indicate a consistent framework within which spiritual forces operate, offering guidance on how individuals might navigate or understand this realm.​

... well great, then! It looks like you've already engaged your own epistemic journey toward the Christian Faith.

With that being the case, I'm bowing out from further discussion here because you've pushed forth numerous reasons in support of your expectations for the "miraculous model" of Christianity, all of which you've amply provided via your ChatGPT assisted "Abduction." This, and the fact that our discussion is becoming a snowballing debate (which isn't allowed here in this forum).

So, best wishes on finding that which you seek ................................................... ! If by chance you ever want to better understand my view on things, feel free to see my book-list on my Personal CF page.


Be blessed

 

[SkepticOnTheFence]

Myself, I avoid conclusions. Faith does not analyze a set of observations to try to figure them out. Faith, a gift from the Creator, simply "knows" by faith, by revelation, by the gift from and in Jesus, and believes "by faith" what is true. Easy, peaceful, no stress, relief!, great joy, and supported without fail by all of true Scripture. Confirmed by all of true Scripture. Not needing the "reasoning" /figuring it out/ but simply all the pieces, the whole picture, in perfect harmony with God.

I'm interested in what you said here. You seem to be describing an extraordinary ability to acquire knowledge intuitively, without the need for reasoning. This is beyond my comprehension. My brain doesn't work like that. How did you acquire this ability? How can you just "know" anything, without any cognitive effort whatsoever?

I don't understand the concept of faith either. Are you using "faith" and "belief" interchangeably? Do you really have the ability to just choose to believe anything? For example, can you choose to believe that the sky is green and sea is yellow? Personally, I lack such an ability. I cannot simply "choose" to start believing something. I don't know how to do that. I need to ponder the evidence and reflect on what makes most sense to me.

 

[Hawkins]

The big picture is, Adam and Eve fell due to the lack of 1) obedience, and 2) faith in the Word of God.

Law is an assessment of obedience, while humans failed. The New Covenant at the end, is an assessment of faith.

So the OP question is, "can I skip the assessment of faith, but to acquire the evidence without faith instead?" Naturally the answer is NO, in terms of the Law and covenants.