Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

Well, it really doesn't matter what Hitler believed or didn't believe ...the truth remains the truth despite his apprehension of it. I really don't understand your question fully .... are you asking me if Hitler was actually saved prior to committing his atrocities .... or could he be forgiven after committing them?

No I’m asking if he would’ve been saved while he was killing hundreds of thousands of people based solely on his belief that Jesus would forgive him of his sins? I’m not talking about repenting afterwards I’m talking about if he believed he would be saved while he was ordering the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, I really don't see why love wouldn't be a factor in the equation.

I just wanted to clarify that salvation is not based solely on faith alone. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul said “if I have all faith so as to move mountains and I have not love, I am nothing”.

 

[Clare73]

So if Hitler believed that he would be saved even tho he was still ordering the execution, torture, and imprisonment of Jews while killing hundreds of thousands of people in his world domination campaign he would actually be saved?

Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?

It's the faith of rebirth that saves.

 

[d taylor]

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It is faith in The person Jesus that gives a person the permanent Eternal Life of God.​

...People who say Eternal Life salvation can be lost, only say that because they believe in a work based salvation. They are believing they are being saved not because of God's promise of Eternal Life to all who believe in Jesus. But because of things they are doing for God, their faith is in themselves and their actions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?

It's the faith of rebirth that saves.

I couldn’t have done what Hitler did before I came to Christ. Could you have done that before you came to Christ?

 

[Clare73]

I couldn’t have done what Hitler did before I came to Christ. Could you have done that before you came to Christ?

Not doing what Hitler did is not the only measure of the new birth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

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It is faith in The person Jesus that gives a person the permanent Eternal Life of God.​

...People who say Eternal Life salvation can be lost, only say that because they believe in a work based salvation. They are believing they are being saved not because of God's promise of Eternal Life to all who believe in Jesus. But because of things they are doing for God, their faith is in themselves and their actions.

No that’s not true at all. I refute works based salvation but the scriptures clearly say that believers can lose their salvation.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?

It's the faith of rebirth that saves.

I thought you taught that it’s being saved that causes faith?

 

[Clare73]

No that’s not true at all. I refute works based salvation but the scriptures clearly say that believers can lose their salvation.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Works and grace being mutually exclusive, if they add works (circumcision, law keeping) to grace for salvation, as the Judaizers were trying to convince them they must do, they have fallen from relying on grace alone and into relying on works also, thereby necessarily excluding grace, which is the only means of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Works and grace being mutually exclusive, if they add works (circumcision, law keeping) to grace for salvation, as the Judaizers were trying to convince them they must do, they have fallen from relying on grace alone and into relying on works also, thereby necessarily excluding grace, which is the only means of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

Right so these people who have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace LOST their salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Right so these people who have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace LOST their salvation.

If they actually sever from Christ by continuing to rely on works after being given apostolic truth, they were never born again in the first place.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If they actually sever from Christ by continuing to rely on works after being given apostolic truth, they were never born again in the first place.

But Paul specifically said they had received the Holy Spirit in chapter 3.

“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

But Paul specifically said they had received the Holy Spirit in chapter 3.

“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So I'm quite sure when they received Paul's letter, they understood their error and straightened it out.

 

[d taylor]

No that’s not true at all. I refute works based salvation but the scriptures clearly say that believers can lose their salvation.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

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​

You plainly state that is takes more than faith. That is a works salvation or a faith plus works salvation. But i really question the idea that there can actually be a faith plus salvation.

 

[Rapture Bound]

No I’m asking if he would’ve been saved while he was killing hundreds of thousands of people based solely on his belief that Jesus would forgive him of his sins? I’m not talking about repenting afterwards I’m talking about if he believed he would be saved while he was ordering the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Well, I'm still not exactly sure what you're asking, but if I were to guess, it would be virtually synonymous with Clare's [paraphrase in post #443] of your question ---- "Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?" ... So, I'll run with that.

In my opinion, I don't believe any born again believer would ever commit the atrocities that Hitler did. I would even take it further and say I don't believe the vast majority of unregenerated people would actually do what Hitler did if given the opportunity [and were not in a state of severe mental decline/disorder].

However, I suppose it's plausible for a born again believer to commit those crimes against humanity if they were suffering from some type of severe cognitive dysfunction. Therefore, only in the case of extreme exceptions like this would a born again believer ever opt to order the deaths of innocent people like Hitler did.

At it's core, the question at hand appears to essentially turn back upon the extent and efficacy of the change of nature that was necessarily accomplished in each person that become a new creature in Christ the moment they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. [2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new ...

Ezekiel 36:26-27, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

 

[BNR32FAN]

So I'm quite sure when they received Paul's letter, they understood their error and straightened it out.

Ok so you’ve gone from they were never saved to they will be saved no matter what. So I’m guessing that according to your theology every single one of them that had received the Holy Spirit is destined to repent and be saved. If that were the case then why would James write this?

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to your logic the soul of these who stray from the truth was never in any danger of death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

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​

You plainly state that is takes more than faith. That is a works salvation or a faith plus works salvation. But i really question the idea that there can actually be a faith plus salvation.

Care to explain this statement then?

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Or are you content to just ignore it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I'm still not exactly sure what you're asking, but if I were to guess, it would be virtually synonymous with Clare's [paraphrase in post #443] of your question ---- "Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?" ... So, I'll run with that.

In my opinion, I don't believe any born again believer would ever commit the atrocities that Hitler did. I would even take it further and say I don't believe the vast majority of unregenerated people would actually do what Hitler did if given the opportunity [and were not in a state of severe mental decline/disorder].

However, I suppose it's plausible for a born again believer to commit those crimes against humanity if they were suffering from some type of severe cognitive dysfunction. Therefore, only in the case of extreme exceptions like this would a born again believer ever opt to order the deaths of innocent people like Hitler did.

At it's core, the question at hand appears to essentially turn back upon the extent and efficacy of the change of nature that was necessarily accomplished in each person that become a new creature in Christ the moment they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. [2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new ...

Ezekiel 36:26-27, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Yes but the point was that simply believing that Jesus will forgive all your sins doesn’t actually save someone. That was the whole point of the example. Hitler would not be saved just because he believed that Jesus would forgive him while he continued to keep on killing innocent people.

 

[Clare73]

Ok so you’ve gone from they were never saved to they will be saved no matter what. So I’m guessing that according to your theology every single one of them that had received the Holy Spirit is destined to repent and be saved. If that were the case then why would James write this?

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to your logic the soul of these who stray from the truth was never in any danger of death.

You are either saved or not.

If you are, you persevere.

Therefore, if you don't persevere, you were never saved.

 

[d taylor]

Care to explain this statement then?

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Or are you content to just ignore it?

The severed is in a positional sense that is a broken fellowship , the believer has moved away from God's grace and trying to maintain a relationship with God through the law. Nothing in the verse even come close to saying they have lost their Eternal Life.

That if the believer is going to go back to the law, they will be on their own while liviong out their earthy life.