Atheism and Theism

[jacknife]

The factual evidence for the existence of God is this universe -- His creation. And Atheism is essentially delusion.

All faiths can claim this universe is evidence for their god and they would be just as convincing as one another. However perhaps this is getting side tracked from the point of this thread.

 

[jacknife]

If I am worshiping other gods.. why am I not receiving the empathetic effects? This sucks.. lol.

I mean even Satan himself is an empathetic vessel to exploit. Not that I have any desire to worship him, but I should be feeling something.

I honestly dont know why you would need religion to be more empathetic, if anything religions have a sort of "membership" idea I find works against empathy a black and white "us" vs "them" mentality.

 

[MehGuy]

I honestly dont know why you would need religion to be more empathetic, if anything religions have a sort of "membership" idea I find works against empathy a black and white "us" vs "them" mentality.

You don't need spirituality to be more empathetic towards living beings.. just that spirituality gives you the abilities to be empathetic towards invisible and all encompassing beings.

Also not sure why you can't empathize with the "them". Even if you're supposed to hate them.

 

[jacknife]

You don't need spirituality to be more empathetic towards living beings.. just that spirituality gives you the abilities to be empathetic towards invisible and all encompassing beings.

Also not sure why you can't empathize with the "them". Even if you're supposed to hate them.

I've always viewed empathy and hate as pretty opposite feelings, you cant really empathize with someone you hate. Or at least thats what i think im not too good with emotions though so i could be wrong.

 

[Tayla]

Recently I was in a discussion about how different the beliefs held by atheism and theism are. I honestly don't think the beliefs held by the two are vastly different, what are the major belief differences between the two?

There are various views of atheists, anything from certainty there is no God to not believing in God because it is outside of science, outside of the assumption of materialism.

There are various views of theists, including monotheism and other kinds.

As far as considering these views from philosophy, they are vastly different. But both sides being humans, these people have much in common in their thinking.

 

[dlamberth]

I honestly dont know why you would need religion to be more empathetic, if anything religions have a sort of "membership" idea I find works against empathy a black and white "us" vs "them" mentality.

Being more of a spiritual person and not at all a religious one, it's my seeing the Divine in others that has made me empathetic.

 

[Halbhh]

You don't need spirituality to be more empathetic towards living beings.. just that spirituality gives you the abilities to be empathetic towards invisible and all encompassing beings.

Also not sure why you can't empathize with the "them". Even if you're supposed to hate them.

If you get deeper into loving other people, at some point you may notice how it matters to some people whether you have positive regard towards them even as strangers passing by in the grocery store or on a sidewalk, even just for a second or two. And that can make you wonder about what allows a person to love others more generally.

Not just their friends. Not just those who love them back.

But more.

There is a reason we can love more. If we realize what Jesus gave/did for our sakes, it profoundly awakens and opens up more love in us.

He even said this: John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
meaning that if you don't see that, you are not looking at one of His, and also He said more about loving people past only our friends and family in Matthew chapter 5, things that we simply cannot do much without relying on Him. If you see someone doing those extensively, they are relying on spirit, not just the body. The bodily instincts are more self-protective than to just love even those that act against us for example.

 

[MehGuy]

I've always viewed empathy and hate as pretty opposite feelings, you cant really empathize with someone you hate. Or at least thats what i think im not too good with emotions though so i could be wrong.

Why can't you empathize with someone who hates you? Feel the intense hatred in their heart for you and you develop an appreciation for it.

That's just one of countless examples. More would even be emotional states of others that your religion tricks you into thinking that's real but isn't. I'd still count it as going through the empathetic process.

As far as people hating others for no reason, I have a hard time imagining that. Even the Nazis had crazy ideas of Jews waging wars on them.

 

[jacknife]

Why can't you empathize with someone who hates you? Feel the intense hatred in their heart for you and you develop an appreciation for it.

That's just one of countless examples. More would even be emotional states of others that your religion tricks you into thinking that's real but isn't. I'd still count it as going through the empathetic process.

As far as people hating others for no reason, I have a hard time imagining that. Even the Nazis had crazy ideas of Jews waging wars on them.

Oh I thought you meant a person empathizing with someone who HE hates, the person trying to display empathy actively hating the person their trying to have empathy for.

 

[MehGuy]

Oh I thought you meant a person empathizing with someone who HE hates, the person trying to display empathy actively hating the person their trying to have empathy for.

I did mean that. If someone hates you, it's not hard to hate them back. The more emotionally empathetic you are about their hatred for you the more you are able to hate them back.

 

[Halbhh]

I did mean that. If someone hates you, it's not hard to hate them back. The more emotionally empathetic you are about their hatred for you the more you are able to hate them back.

If you can see they are rightfully angry at you, it's very easy for most anyone to empathize with someone angry at them for a just reason.

It's when someone attacks you personally in an unjust way that it's far harder to be loving towards them then....

 

[MehGuy]

If you can see they are rightfully angry at you, it's very easy for most anyone to empathize with someone angry at them for a just reason.

It's when someone attacks you personally in an unjust way that it's far harder to be loving towards them then....

I don't see why empathy requires love.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't see why empathy requires love.

Agree those are different things. Though to be empathetic in a validating way is loving though of course only one part of the totality of love. Hate and love are not opposites. Indifference is the opposite of love. Empathy is not indifference though, unless just a pretense of empathy. (I'm thinking of empathy as spontaneously or naturally appreciating another's feelings because one appreciates those feelings in oneself, and think of it as experiencing the same feeling in part at the same time as they are.) Since empathy is in part the opposite of indifferent then as I see it, it's a form of love. Of course one could use the terms in other ways and say other things instead.

 

[MehGuy]

Agree those are different things. Though to be empathetic in a validating way is loving though of course only one part of the totality of love. Hate and love are not opposites. Indifference is the opposite of love. Empathy is not indifference though, unless just a pretense of empathy. (I'm thinking of empathy as spontaneously or naturally appreciating another's feelings because one appreciates those feelings in oneself, and think of it as experiencing the same feeling in part at the same time as they are.) Since empathy is in part the opposite of indifferent then as I see it, it's a form of love. Of course one could use the terms in other ways and say other things instead.

Yeah, indifference is more closely related to a lack of empathy. From speaking with psychopaths who have little to no emotional empathy, they say they're indifferent towards others good or bad. They most likely receive no emotional effect when someone hates them, nor do they have the interest to hate others. Probably one reason why when you punish or lock one up they don't seem emotionally phased.

Sadly hatred can very well be a social activity and one that helps fulfill a social animal's needs for interaction. I'm certainly not endorsing bad forms of empathy but I very much disagree that an us vs. them mentality doesn't also contain material for empathy.

 

[Rajni]

I did mean that. If someone hates you, it's not hard to hate them back. The more emotionally empathetic you are about their hatred for you the more you are able to hate them back.

I've often wondered about this in dealing with people.

I pick up on others' emotions, and so sometimes I
wonder if I absorb what they're feeling and end up
thinking those emotions are my own. I've actually
started crying when I see or overhear another crying
and not even know the specifics of why the crying ( on
either of our parts ) is occurring.

Maybe it's an overabundance of mirror-neurons.

 

[MehGuy]

I've often wondered about this in dealing with people.

I pick up on others' emotions, and so sometimes I
wonder if I absorb what they're feeling and end up
thinking those emotions are my own. I've actually
started crying when I see or overhear another crying
and not even know the specifics of why the crying ( on
either of our parts ) is occurring.

Maybe it's an overabundance of mirror-neurons.

Maybe you're a highly sensitive person (HSP). There are brain scans indicating that brains of HSPs are wired differently. Not sure if I have it, but I certainly match all the symptoms.

Are you also extremely emotionally spiritual as well?

 

[Rajni]

Maybe you're a highly sensitive person (HSP). There are brain scans indicating that brains of HSPs are wired differently. Not sure if I have it, but I certainly match all the symptoms.

Are you also extremely emotionally spiritual as well?

I wouldn't be surprised. I've probably got a bit of
both the empath and the HSP traits.

As for emotionally spiritual, I think so...

-

 

[dlamberth]

I don't see why empathy requires love.

It's because Love has a way of opening a person towards others.

 

[MehGuy]

It's because Love has a way of opening a person towards others.

Well, I do think love can help the guard go down.

 

[Rachel20]

Recently I was in a discussion about how different the beliefs held by atheism and theism are. I honestly don't think the beliefs held by the two are vastly different, what are the major belief differences between the two?

I was just reading the below argument from a blog on the Incompleteness Theorem and the parenthetical (in bold) surprised me. This would be a major difference between the two if true that the atheist ultimately views the universe as irrational.

"The debate essentially comes down to this:

• If the universe is illogical and inconsistent then it is possible for it to be complete.
• If the universe is logical and consistent then it is incomplete.
• If the universe is incomplete, then it depends on something on the outside.

In other words, if the laws of mathematics and logic apply to the universe, then the universe has to have a metaphysical source. Atheism can only be true if the universe is irrational.

(By the way, my experience from conversing with literally thousands of atheists via email and on my various blogs is this: When you get down to the core emotional center of why they don’t believe in God, it’s often because they feel deep down that the universe is irrational. They’re immensely disappointed that the world is full of evil and suffering. Because of this, they reject the idea of God.)"