Atheism and Theism

[MehGuy]

Oh, I disagree with this completely. If you're deeply religious (and liberals can be), you live in a different universe entirely than an atheist--the one thing that is most important to you is at best an afterthought for them. And in reverse, you'll hear stories about atheists freaking out when their significant other finds religion, so I think it's a really bad combination on both sides. A deist or a nominal Christian is one thing, but a fully committed religious believer with an atheist seems like a recipe for disaster. Especially if you toss in a sacramental view of marriage that one side rejects.

Conservatives and liberals can coexist much better, I think, as long as both sides are reasonable about it.

Oh I agree about deeply religious people being different. When I was religious I'd say religion was more important than political affiliation. Although for the vast majority of the religious population, they strike me as lukewarm. Whether or not they admit it, I'd wager political affiliation matters more to them than religion.

As far as atheists (who tend to lean left) freaking out if someone finds religion, I think that's often because it may come with conservative baggage attached.

 

[GUANO]

So that puts Jesus on a level playing field with worldly things since they're both literally gods.
We can prove worldly things exist and we cannot prove Jesus is a god.
Therefore, the rational conclusion is to go with worldly things.

I'm glad I was able to solve the Christian thing for everyone and now we never have consider it again.

You think it's funny but the logic here is spot-on. There is literally no difference between Christianity and Paganism today because they both worship the State above and beyond whatever superstitious fantasy they claim to believe in as a hobby.

 

[Silmarien]

Oh I agree about deeply religious people being different. When I was religious I'd say religion was more important than political affiliation. Although for the vast majority of the religious population, they strike me as lukewarm. Whether or not they admit it, I'd wager political affiliation matters more to them than religion.

As far as atheists (who tend to lean left) freaking out if someone finds religion, I think that's often because it may come with conservative baggage attached.

Oh, I think way more is involved than politics, at least in the secular liberal circles I'm familiar with. Religion is viewed as an intellectually inferior option, so start flirting with Christianity in particular and people will worry for your sanity and intelligence. Atheism does have real social capital these days, and then there's a hierarchy of acceptable religious or spiritual affiliations beneath it. Christianity is definitely at the bottom of the totem pole. (I think this is why I have trouble getting off the fence concerning it--instinctive disdain for revelation that I can't quite shake.)

I agree that for the majority of the religious population, it probably doesn't matter too much, though.

 

[MehGuy]

Oh, I think way more is involved than politics, at least in the secular liberal circles I'm familiar with. Religion is viewed as an intellectually inferior option, so start flirting with Christianity in particular and people will worry for your sanity and intelligence. Atheism does have real social capital these days, and then there's a hierarchy of acceptable religious or spiritual affiliations beneath it. Christianity is definitely at the bottom of the totem pole.

I agree that for the majority of the religious population, it probably doesn't matter too much, though.

From my experience with the atheist community there does indeed seem to be a short phase an atheist will go through where they view religious people with ridiculous contempt. Although this phase seems to last only a short while and may be connected to teenage angst and wanting to rebel against authority figures. Most seem to grow up from that.

As far as Christianity being at the bottom of the totem pole I don't really see it. The only atheists I see that from are the SJW variety. Christianity seems to be a symbol of the white man to them. While many anti-SJW atheists seem to come to Christianity's defense, especially when they view Islam receiving special treatment. Like I said before, atheism is much more fractured than it was several years ago. Racism seems to be getting popular with many atheists via ideas of evolution and races evolving differently. Heck, I've heard some atheists as of late say that they promote the spread of Christianity because it promotes white birth rates. Lol.

 

[Silmarien]

From my experience with the atheist community there does indeed seem to be a short phase an atheist will go through where they view religious people with ridiculous contempt. Although this phase seems to last only a short while and may be connected to teenage angst and wanting to rebel against authority figures. Most seem to grow up from that.

As far as Christianity being at the bottom of the totem pole I don't really see it. The only atheists I see that from are the SJW variety. Christianity seems to be a symbol of the white man to them. While many anti-SJW atheists seem to come to Christianity's defense, especially when they view Islam receiving special treatment. Like I said before, atheism is much more fractured than it was several years ago. Racism seems to be getting popular with many atheists via ideas of evolution and races evolving differently. Heck, I've heard some atheists as of late say that they promote the spread of Christianity because it promotes white birth rates. Lol.

Yeah, I am specifically thinking about the more academically oriented liberal circles. We're not quite the SJW movement, but we're definitely the forerunner to it, and I think it's in part the Marxist leanings and related ideological commitments that lead to Christianity being viewed so negatively. (Also, sexual orientation is a big issue with the people I know, so that also plays a role in Christianity being viewed as an oppressive force. Not entirely without reason, unfortunately.)

The anti-SJW crowd is a different beast entirely, though, I agree. They have more in common with the 19th century eugenicists.

 

[Silmarien]

And carried over from the other thread...

I disagree I find a greater purpose beyond myself when I help people at my work, sure many don't last for much longer and my greater purpose is deprived of spirituality but by helping society as a whole we can extend to a purpose beyond ourselves. But I have another thread started just for this its called "athiest and thiest" we can discuss this more there.

Well, you can subjectively find greater purpose in something, but is there any inherent purpose there that you are not yourself assigning to your actions? That is what I mean by "greater purpose"--the idea that all of history is an unfolding story that is heading in a particular direction. This isn't necessarily a matter of theism vs. atheism, because not all theistic systems involve the idea that history has an actual purpose, but something like the eschatological promise of Christianity really does bring with it a very specific, very rich picture of purpose. I don't think you see this outside of the Abrahamic religions. (Except for Marxism, which is a bit of a wild, atheistic version of Christianity in the first place.)

 

[MehGuy]

Yeah, I am specifically thinking about the more academically oriented liberal circles. We're not quite the SJW movement, but we're definitely the forerunner to it, and I think it's the Marxist leanings that lead to Christianity being viewed so negatively. (Also, sexual orientation is a big issue with the people I know, so that also plays a role in Christianity being viewed as an oppressive force. Not entirely without reason, unfortunately.)

Strange though, Christianity seems pretty Marxist.

The anti-SJW crowd is a different beast entirely, though, I agree. They have more in common with the 19th century eugenicists.

Not all anti-SJWs are bad, I still somewhat consider myself one. Although anti-SJWs have been getting more rotten these past several months. With Internet Blood sports and whatnot.. society is going down a strange path.

I will say though, the idea that atheist communities are more peaceful and full of harmony is coming crashing down. Easy to say when atheism was smaller and less accessible. I'd argue that average IQ of an atheist 20 years ago was much higher than it is today. Sadly the more the floodgates open the more low IQ and just mentally unstable the atheist population becomes.

 

[jacknife]

And carried over from the other thread...



Well, you can subjectively find greater purpose in something, but is there any inherent purpose there that you are not yourself assigning to your actions? That is what I mean by "greater purpose"--the idea that all of history is an unfolding story that is heading in a particular direction. This isn't necessarily a matter of theism vs. atheism, because not all theistic systems involve the idea that history has an actual purpose, but something like the eschatological promise of Christianity really does bring with it a very specific, very rich picture of purpose. I don't think you see this outside of the Abrahamic religions. (Except for Marxism, which is a bit of a wild, atheistic version of Christianity in the first place.)

More of an idea that what happens is meant to happen? I don't know maybe within the frame work of atheistic religions you can find that sort of view point. Though I honestly don't know enough about atheistic religions to confidently make that statement. But i don't know if its a view point you would only find within the abrahamic religions, wouldn't old pagan views and even things like pure land buddism bring with them strong sense of purpose in events that unfold?

 

[Silmarien]

Strange though, Christianity seems pretty Marxist.

It's the other way around, I'd say. Marxism takes the Christian hope, tosses in a whole bunch of reductive materialist ideology, and then spits out something that almost looks intentionally incoherent. (On the metaphysical level, I mean. I don't entirely disagree with the economic analysis.) It has a very negative view on religion and spirituality, and I think that carries over with a lot of people who lean in that direction.

I will say though, the idea that atheist communities are more peaceful and full of harmony is coming crashing down. Easy to say when atheism was smaller and less accessible. I'd argue that average IQ of an atheist 20 years ago was much higher than it is today. Sadly the more the floodgates open the more low IQ and just mentally unstable the atheist population becomes.

Yeah. Atheistic harmony always was always a myth, unfortunately. We saw this as far back as the French Revolution, when the anti-clerical luminaries snapped and sudden surprise Reign of Terror. And then again with the communists. Tribalism is tribalism, whether it's theistic or not.

More of an idea that what happens is meant to happen? I don't know maybe within the frame work of atheistic religions you can find that sort of view point. Though I honestly don't know enough about atheistic religions to confidently make that statement. But i don't know if its a view point you would only find within the abrahamic religions, wouldn't old pagan views and even things like pure land buddism bring with them strong sense of purpose in events that unfold?

Well, there are two ways to look at the idea that what is meant to happen will happen. There's a very fatalistic version of it, where you're pretty much doomed no matter what, because the universe ultimately doesn't care about you. Events will repeat and repeat forever. This was what was pretty common in a lot of Greco-Roman paganism, and a major reason that Christianity took off the way it did. It had a much more attractive picture of reality. With the possible exception of the Egyptian view of the afterlife, I'm not really aware of any other fully positive picture within the pagan world.

I'd view Christian eschatology as being more a matter of humanity being a joint author in a book that's being written. We have a utopian picture of where we're supposed to end up, but it's our responsibility to continue pushing things in that direction--and that's where a lot of the strong Christian convictions behind the various social movements comes from. Atheists can borrow that picture of utopia, but it's so caught up in 2000 years of Christian theology that if you start unraveling it, you'll eventually just end up with a handful of yarn and nothing else.

 

[awitch]

You think it's funny but the logic here is spot-on.

I'm glad you agree with my logic. My tuition was not wasted.

There is literally no difference between Christianity and Paganism today because they both worship the State above and beyond whatever superstitious fantasy they claim to believe in as a hobby.

Compare the percentage of Christian congressmen to Pagan congressmen. I'll think you'll see a difference

 

[bhsmte]

I'm glad you agree with my logic. My tuition was not wasted.



Compare the percentage of Christian congressmen to Pagan congressmen. I'll think you'll see a difference

I am of the opinion, that a decent percentage of the general population in the United States claim to be Christian, just to fit in with the culture. When it comes to politicians trying to get elected, I believe the number who pretend, is even higher.

 

[awitch]

I am of the opinion, that a decent percentage of the general population in the United States claim to be Christian, just to fit in with the culture. When it comes to politicians trying to get elected, I believe the number who pretend, is even higher.

I agree most are not really Christian, but they have to claim they are to cater to the base of Christians who won't vote for anyone who isn't one.

 

[jacknife]

It's the other way around, I'd say. Marxism takes the Christian hope, tosses in a whole bunch of reductive materialist ideology, and then spits out something that almost looks intentionally incoherent. (On the metaphysical level, I mean. I don't entirely disagree with the economic analysis.) It has a very negative view on religion and spirituality, and I think that carries over with a lot of people who lean in that direction.



Yeah. Atheistic harmony always was always a myth, unfortunately. We saw this as far back as the French Revolution, when the anti-clerical luminaries snapped and sudden surprise Reign of Terror. And then again with the communists. Tribalism is tribalism, whether it's theistic or not.



Well, there are two ways to look at the idea that what is meant to happen will happen. There's a very fatalistic version of it, where you're pretty much doomed no matter what, because the universe ultimately doesn't care about you. Events will repeat and repeat forever. This was what was pretty common in a lot of Greco-Roman paganism, and a major reason that Christianity took off the way it did. It had a much more attractive picture of reality. With the possible exception of the Egyptian view of the afterlife, I'm not really aware of any other fully positive picture within the pagan world.

I'd view Christian eschatology as being more a matter of humanity being a joint author in a book that's being written. We have a utopian picture of where we're supposed to end up, but it's our responsibility to continue pushing things in that direction--and that's where a lot of the strong Christian convictions behind the various social movements comes from. Atheists can borrow that picture of utopia, but it's so caught up in 2000 years of Christian theology that if you start unraveling it, you'll eventually just end up with a handful of yarn and nothing else.

Yeah i was think nordic pagan and their idea of Ragnarok where the world is like a story that will eventually have an end. I never really cared much for christianity's idea of an eternal afterlife but you might have a point where this could be a difference between atheist and theist.

 

[Silmarien]

Yeah i was think nordic pagan and their idea of Ragnarok where the world is like a story that will eventually have an end. I never really cared much for christianity's idea of an eternal afterlife but you might have a point where this could be a difference between atheist and theist.

Ragnarok is a bit different, though, since it's more like a reboot than an actual end--Lif and Lifthrasir will survive, and humanity with them, and then the whole cycle will presumably start again. I don't remember if there's supposed to be an eternal sequence of Ragnaroks or not. Either way, it's not something to be looked forward to.

Traditional Christianity is about more than just working towards an afterlife, though. It's supposed to be about transforming this world and the Kingdom of God coming here, which is why it can be such a forceful vehicle for social reform. (And also why it can just descend into Rapture based madness.)

 

[jacknife]

Ragnarok is a bit different, though, since it's more like a reboot than an actual end--Lif and Lifthrasir will survive, and humanity with them, and then the whole cycle will presumably start again. I don't remember if there's supposed to be an eternal sequence of Ragnaroks or not. Either way, it's not something to be looked forward to.

Traditional Christianity is about more than just working towards an afterlife, though. It's supposed to be about transforming this world and the Kingdom of God coming here, which is why it can be such a forceful vehicle for social reform. (And also why it can just descend into Rapture based madness.)

Yes but I always felt bring heaven here didn't really require OUR work, when Jesus returns and replenishes the earth then heaven on earth will be a thing. It's not about what each individual believer does. The actual believer only needs grace and faith to achieve salvation. It's a lot like pure land Buddhism in that regard. In fact I find many of them flat out despise this world and eagerly await it's end.

 

[Silmarien]

Yes but I always felt bring heaven here didn't really require OUR work, when Jesus returns and replenishes the earth then heaven on earth will be a thing. It's not about what each individual believer does. The actual believer only needs grace and faith to achieve salvation. It's a lot like pure land Buddhism in that regard. In fact I find many of them flat out despise this world and eagerly await it's end.

Yeah, the Protestant notion of Sola Fide can pretty easily slip into a sort of "grace and faith and I don't need to do anything" mentality, which is unfortunate, since that's not what it's supposed to mean. And really dangerous if Christianity is true, because this is precisely the type of behavior that has all the dire warnings attached to it in the Gospel. Christians need to stop evangelizing non-Christians and start evangelizing each other, because sitting around waiting for the end while the world burns kind of puts you in "I never knew you" territory.

Have you ever read anything by N.T. Wright? He definitely stresses the call to political service from an evangelical Anglican perspective, and is big on calling out all of Western Christianity on accidentally misplacing the Gospel.

 

[jacknife]

Yeah, the Protestant notion of Sola Fide can pretty easily slip into a sort of "grace and faith and I don't need to do anything" mentality, which is unfortunate, since that's not what it's supposed to mean. And really dangerous if Christianity is true, because this is precisely the type of behavior that has all the dire warnings attached to it in the Gospel. Christians need to stop evangelizing non-Christians and start evangelizing each other, because sitting around waiting for the end while the world burns kind of puts you in "I never knew you" territory.

Have you ever read anything by N.T. Wright? He definitely stresses the call to political service from an evangelical Anglican perspective, and is big on calling out all of Western Christianity on accidentally misplacing the Gospel.

I've probably read very little compared to most posters here, some crowell, i have read the bible, wanted to read the Quran but with work and everything I haven't really had the time. And to be honest Christianity kind of stopped interesting me as a possible path awhile ago so I havn't really been looking into it much other religions interest me a bit more.

 

[Micah888]

Both are based on belief and don't have factual evidence

The factual evidence for the existence of God is this universe -- His creation. And Atheism is essentially delusion.

 

[dlamberth]

Theists acknowledge that they worship a single god. Atheists worship many gods but claim they don't. That's the difference.

There's a lot of different God's that theist worship through out the world.

 

[MehGuy]

If I am worshiping other gods.. why am I not receiving the empathetic effects? This sucks.. lol.

I mean even Satan himself is an empathetic vessel to exploit. Not that I have any desire to worship him, but I should be feeling something.