Article that Explains Mutual Submission in the Trinity

[FireDragon76]

I'm saying that egalitarianism actually can erode the concept of grace, if we understand the world primarily in terms of equality as the ideal, rather than love. Equality and love are not identical. Look at the parables of Jesus, there's nothing particularly fair about giving one worker who works only an hour, the same wages as another that works four hours. Now apply that story to the sexes, and we could see Jesus ethos as being somewhat at odds with egalitarianism. Equal pay for equal work? Not in God's kingdom.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm saying that egalitarianism actually can erode the concept of grace, if we understand the world primarily in terms of equality as the ideal, rather than love. Equality and love are not identical. Look at the parables of Jesus, there's nothing particularly fair about giving one worker who works only an hour, the same wages as another that works four hours. Now apply that story to the sexes, and we could see Jesus ethos as being somewhat at odds with egalitarianism. Equal pay for equal work? Not in God's kingdom.

The problem comes in when you assign the pay based on gender. Did Jesus say anywhere that gender should determine wages? (Did he even say that is the best way to handle wages? I don't think that was a story to teach people how to determine a person's wages).

Equality does not equal sameness, but gender also does not mean that people are exactly the same. Every person is unique, no matter their gender, ethnicity, standard of living, etc. God gave us all unique qualities, and didn't make us match a cookie cutter template.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not OK with pay being based on gender, FWIW. I just think we need to be careful to not let egalitarianism become the operating principle of doing all theology and practice.

This issue isn't best addressed by our Trinitarian doctrine but the doctrine of the imago dei or divine image.

 

[mkgal1]

Every person is unique, no matter their gender, ethnicity, standard of living, etc. God gave us all unique qualities, and didn't make us match a cookie cutter template.

Exactly.

I feel as if maybe a couple of issues are being discussed at once and complicating things :/ I think since a lot of the Bible is God's principles spoken about in the context of a specific culture, it's often difficult to sift out what truly are God's standards....ideals...and what's enmeshed with culture.

To me: since egalitarianism is defined as, "relating to or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"--then I personally believe that extends further than just gender. I see a lot of language in the Bible that gives me the impression that God desires all favoritism and prejudice to eventually be stripped away.

just think we need to be careful to not let egalitarianism become the operating principle of doing all theology and practice.

Can you elaborate as to why you see that as a problem? It should never be separated from love, truth, and grace.....it all has to go hand-in-hand (IMO).

This issue isn't best addressed by our Trinitarian doctrine but the doctrine of the imago dei or divine image.

I think I need more elaboration on this as well (if you don't mind).

 

[FireDragon76]

Can you elaborate as to why you see that as a problem? It should never be separated from love, truth, and grace.....it all has to go hand-in-hand (IMO).

Yeah... I'm almost too embarrassed to mention it as an ELCA Lutheran, but google Herchurch. There's hardly anything recognizable as Christian about their liturgy, much less Lutheran. Fortunately, that congregation doesn't represent the overwhelming majority of the denomination. It's more San Francisco wierdness. If I lived there and had to go to some politically progressive church, I'd rather be going to St. Gregory of Nyssa (Episcopalian), it's mostly full of half-crazy hippies with questionable taste but it's still recognizably Christian.

 

[mkgal1]

Yeah... I'm almost too embarrassed to mention it as an ELCA Lutheran, but google Herchurch. There's hardly anything recognizable as Christian about their liturgy. Fortunately, that congregation doesn't represent the overwhelming majority of the denomination. It's more San Francisco wierdness. If I lived there, I'd rather be going to St. Gregory of Nyssa, as crazy hippy as it is, it's still recognizeably Christian.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction. I will look into all that.

"It's more San Francisco wierdness"? Careful... ...that's not far from my home.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah, you could check it out just as a notorious example of what I'm getting at. Even the Metropolitan Community Church services I have gone to have been more grounded in something I see as traditionally Christian. And they were fairly far out at times.

I guess it's a very grey area at some point... until it's not. We want Christianity to be accessible but we also want it to be Christian.

 

[mkgal1]

I guess it's a very grey area at some point... until it's not. We want Christianity to be accessible but we also want it to be Christian.

.....I think it's also good to be open-minded about what that means (to be Christian). Just because our faith isn't identical to our grandfather's (for instance)....doesn't mean it's heretical. There's often bits of prejudicial ideas that need to be shed over time (like our change of mind over slaves, for one example).

BTW, I did briefly look up "Herchurch" and it does seem as if she goes a bit to another extreme--focusing too much on "female". IMV....focusing on gender at all is a bit of a misrepresentation since God is spirit, not human. Masculinity/femininity are social constructs. I wouldn't say that a church like that would really represent an egalitarian theology very well---that's something else, in my opinion. Truth often falls in the balance of the middle--and from what little I read, that did seem a bit extreme.

This issue isn't best addressed by our Trinitarian doctrine but the doctrine of the imago dei or divine image.

I think I have a LOT of learning to do (I'm feeling pretty ignorant right now).

I'm confused as to why you're contrasting the doctrine of the Trinity with the doctrine of the imago dei. At what point do they become mutually exclusive?

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm confused as to why you're contrasting the doctrine of the Trinity with the doctrine of the imago dei. At what point do they become mutually exclusive?

I have a background in Orthodox theology so I have alot of respect for the difference between talking about God and talking about humanity. They are more dissimilar than they are similar, and we have to be careful when making analogies between the two.

Lutheran theology has a similar concept in Luther's concept of the "hidden God" vs. the "revealed God". Calvin speculates alot on the hidden God's will and motives based on reason, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is not a valid way to know God in a way that the Church should be proclaiming as part of the Gospel message.

On the other hand, the image dei is an absolutely known reality based on the revelation in Scriptures, both male and female equally are made in the image of God and have the same dignity. We do not need to talk about who God is essentially (which I believe is ultimately incomprehensible, even potentially terrifying) to be able to say that.

 

[mkgal1]

I have a background in Orthodox theology so I have alot of respect for the difference between talking about God and talking about humanity. They are more dissimilar than they are similar, and we have to be careful when making analogies between the two.

(blush) now my ignorance is confirmed. When I read "imago dei"---I thought that meant, "Image of God" and then took that further to mean God incarnate (not humanity). I'm understanding you now.

 

[mkgal1]

I have a background in Orthodox theology so I have alot of respect for the difference between talking about God and talking about humanity. They are more dissimilar than they are similar, and we have to be careful when making analogies between the two.

To this point, though: we are to become "like Christ".....and to be "imitators of God" (Eph 5:1).....so I do believe we are to strive to understand what that actually looks like in order to follow the instruction appropriately.

As far as the "hidden God" and "revealed God"? Do you not believe it's possible that there's a certain progression of understanding what's been revealed (either personal understanding or even corporate understanding through the Body of Christ)? Because I do.